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#1 2015-07-14 12:26:51

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 967
Website

Debian Sid upgrade intervals

For those of you who run Debian sid or a derivative of Debian sid.

How often do you run upgrades? Do you modify that interval during periods of high development like post-release? I'm considering switching from Ubuntu to Sid for my production machine and I'm curious about the lifecycle of the wild creature that is Sid and its habits.

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#2 2015-07-14 12:59:07

PackRat
#! Die Hard
From: USA
Registered: 2011-03-03
Posts: 1,572

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

I update every couple days.

Remember to install apt-listbugs and apt-listchanges so you will get warnings about those things - pretty sure neither is installed by default.

One thing I always watch for is a lot of xorg updates coming through. When that happens, I'll wait a few more days for all of x to work it's way into the system.

What window manager / desktop environment do you typically use? I haven't had any issues with breakage using a WM/DE like fluxbox, openbox, or jwm. I have had sid (and testing) break when I was using gnome. Something to keep in mind for a production machine.


"It does not require many words to speak the truth." - Chief Joseph, Nez Perce tribe

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#3 2015-07-14 13:42:46

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 967
Website

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

I didn't know about apt-listchanges. Good to keep in mind.

I typically change DEs every few months, and I always have a back-up DE for when something isn't working appropriately. I was on Openbox for about 4 months, XFCE for 2, and just switched to KDE with mostly GTK applications (weird but surprisingly awesome).

I expected there might be things to watch out for like x.org updates. I suppose I should watch out for major DE updates too.

Everything usually gets settled in within about a week's time right?

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#4 2015-07-14 13:56:10

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

What PackRat said plus if there are serious, grave bugs on a few packages after running "upsid" (will explain in a minute) say no and put those packages on "hold" and then "upsid" again to let the good ones through.  Every few days take them off hold and check if they go through safely.

Explanation: I'm a horrible typist, I use aliases for just about everything.  See this post for my aliases: upsid, hld, unhld and shld

Also to note: Two really bad ones not to mess with: xorg, as PackRat said, and python  They show bugs "hold-em"

Hope that helps, I did it daily, if I remembered, for about two years and when SID finally crashed; it was an operator error.  Me and my fingers!

upsid isn't there - here you are:

alias upsid='echo "alias upsid = sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade --no-install-recommends" ; sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade --no-install-recommends'
alias supsid='echo "alias supsid = sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade --no-install-recommends --simulate" ; sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade --no-install-recommends --simulate'

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#5 2015-07-14 14:08:55

PackRat
#! Die Hard
From: USA
Registered: 2011-03-03
Posts: 1,572

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

orionthehunter wrote:

<snip>
I suppose I should watch out for major DE updates too.
<snip>
Everything usually gets settled in within about a week's time right?

Correct on both counts. Anything big with a lot of shared libraries - DE, perl, python (mentioned above), etc ...

and the recommended procedure is:

apt-get update        # followed by -

apt-get dist-upgrade

Last edited by PackRat (2015-07-14 14:10:03)


"It does not require many words to speak the truth." - Chief Joseph, Nez Perce tribe

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#6 2015-07-14 15:32:35

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

orionthehunter wrote:

For those of you who run Debian sid or a derivative of Debian sid.

How often do you run upgrades? Do you modify that interval during periods of high development like post-release? I'm considering switching from Ubuntu to Sid for my production machine and I'm curious about the lifecycle of the wild creature that is Sid and its habits.

I was running Debian Sid as my main system (and probably will again, on my next new personal computer).

I used to do it about once per week; but I also went months without upgrades sometimes and then had to supervise a 1200 package upgrade...I don't really miss the excitement.

Keep the updates at a manageable size so that you can roll back easily in the case of a problem -- which is pretty rare. At least for me my system never become completely unaccessible.


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#7 2015-07-14 15:39:51

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

**Group Hug**

Last edited by snowpine (2016-07-15 18:58:01)


/hugged

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#8 2015-07-14 17:19:46

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

twoion wrote:

but I also went months without upgrades sometimes and then had to supervise a 1200 package upgrade...I don't really miss the excitement.

This. I installed sid at my parents house and then moved to Nashville for 7 months... BORK! Don't bother with sid unless you're sure you can review and install upgrades at least monthly, preferably daily (the sid repo will accept new packages 4 times daily, IIRC).

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but checking the siduction forums' Upgrade Warning thread is a big help (aptosid and linuxBBQ too)...
http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?board=22.0


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#9 2015-07-14 17:22:46

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

Oh, and my time with aptosid (before the siduction split) made me a firm believer in switching out of init 5 for upgrades (to avoid X borkage), even though people will swear this isn't necessary...
http://manual.siduction.org/sys-admin-apt#du-st

-edit- Note-to-self: use commas or new sentences instead of parentheses more often.  tongue

Last edited by hhh (2015-07-14 17:25:26)


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#10 2015-07-14 17:42:07

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

I update mine every day.

I use:

# apt-get update
# aptitude full-upgrade

If there are any major transitions [1] going through and the packages & dependencies are mis-matched, `aptitude` will start asking me to choose between various dependency resolution options and this will alert me to potential b0rkage; at that point I usually just cancel the upgrade and use:

# aptitude safe-upgrade

Then wait until the next day and see if `full-upgrade` will go through without complaint.

It is vital to *read* the command output and understand what is about to happen before pressing "y" -- never blindly accept an upgrade and never use the "-y" flag.

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/OngoingTransitions & https://release.debian.org/transitions/

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2015-07-14 17:44:44)

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#11 2015-07-14 18:06:38

hinto
#! Windbag
From: Cary, NC
Registered: 2010-12-08
Posts: 1,487

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

I use smxi (smxi.org) and update every week or 2.
-Hinto


"Sometimes I wish I hadn't taken the red pill" -Me

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#12 2015-07-14 19:06:35

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

@hinto, I'm surprised since you were using aptosid when I was and they were vehemently against smxi.


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#13 2015-07-14 19:19:13

hinto
#! Windbag
From: Cary, NC
Registered: 2010-12-08
Posts: 1,487

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

siduction is not so adamant wink
...and I've used #!, SolydXK, and now Semplice all tracking SID using smxi.
-H


"Sometimes I wish I hadn't taken the red pill" -Me

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#14 2015-07-14 19:32:58

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

It depends. I upgrade them every time I boot into one. So the installs that I like the best, gets updated a lot more than the installs I use less. At any given time I have at least 10 installs running. Often a lot more.

But if you want to know how often I recommend doing it, so every 2 days or so. At least for the first few months in the cycle. After a year or so, doing it once weekly is more than fine.

In regards to holding packages, this is also potentially a dangerous practice, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you absolutely need to upgrade. It's better to hold off the entire upgrade for 3-4 days or so, to see if the warnings disappear. Also, holding some packages are totally risk-free, while holding others are pretty reckless behavior. Make sure you don't hold packages for a long periond of time, not unless you are 100% sure that those packages doesn't in any way depend on any system-critical packages.

Last edited by spacex (2015-07-14 19:34:14)


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#15 2015-07-14 20:08:16

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

@hinto, no doubt! What's the deal with aptosid? Their forums have a news update as recent as January, but Wikipedia talks about them in the past tense.

spacex wrote:

At least for the first few months in the cycle.

You must mean the release cycle.

@orion, when Debian testing freezes (as it did in Nov. 2014) in preparation for the next stable release, sid freezes too. When stable is released and the freeze ends, all the packages that have been waiting to get included in sid come flooding in, the riskiest time for b0rkage.


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#16 2015-07-14 20:20:33

hinto
#! Windbag
From: Cary, NC
Registered: 2010-12-08
Posts: 1,487

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

@hhh, with Semplice, siduction, linuxBBQ already on SID and being able to set other Debian distros to SID, I haven't used aptosid since about 2008.
-H


"Sometimes I wish I hadn't taken the red pill" -Me

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#17 2015-07-15 01:52:35

paxmark1
#! Junkie
From: Winnipeg, MB Canada
Registered: 2009-07-08
Posts: 263

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

init 5 and init 3 transitions isn't working that well for me since about sytemd-215 in siduction and also in a testing installation that had all wayland-weston and no X.

What works for me is "(sudo) systemctl stop lightdm.service" and when done the reverse with   "systemctl start lightdm.service"  I use the sudo version when in graphical mode and it drops me straight to tty1.  I am not sure what would work when using kwin or sddm instead of lightdm   What I read is that systemd "virtualizes" the init stages to imitate sysvinits actions. 

Prior to settling on using stop lighdm.service I tried to do a changeover to systemd syntax. i.e.  "systemctl isolate multi-user.target" and  "systemctl isolate graphical.target" on both systems.  Network access would still cut out after systemctl isolate graphical.target at times in both xorg and wayland environments in the same way as when using init 3 and init 5.    This happened in both ceni and connman in both systems.  (systemd-220 after the big jump did not like ceni and wicd and so I reluctantly removed ceni and went to connman and connmanctl)

The stopping of all things xorg is not necessary if you merely apt-get dist-upgrade -d for just the download. 

Smxi - the siduction kernel master let me know he was NOT a fan of smxi and he mentioned  how many  lines of bash shell was involved in smxi.  I had no idea siduction had a ncurses and gtk program called kernel-remover.  It works.  And since I basically only used smxi to remove kernels, which appear oftener in sid, I purged smxi. 

It has been a lot of fun 9 months or so in sid.  I often went to testing maybe 6 months after a new stable  until the next stable emerged, but (so far)  I really like sid.


Jean Vanier wrote "Being Human" and "A Short History of Progress" by Ronald Wright.  Gotta love the Massey Lectures.

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#18 2015-07-15 06:21:14

vrkalak
#! Die Hard
From: Las Vegas > US
Registered: 2009-09-14
Posts: 1,647

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

I have used Debian-Sid for about 6 years ... using Xfce/Fluxbox/Openbox

I update/upgrade about - once a week.

I have been using this install of Sid - going on 4 years now.

No problems with the 'unstable' release (rolling edge stuff) - Sid is pretty 'stable'

Last edited by vrkalak (2015-07-15 06:24:32)


Registered Linux User: #497030
my DeviantART page
-- #!Crunchbang- Sid "Animal"  (Fluxbox) -- LMDE Fluxbox Edition -- Manjaro-Fluxbox --

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#19 2015-07-15 06:57:36

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

About once every two weeks.  Post-release...it's wise to hold off for a few weeks until the dust settles.  Your choice of DE may determine how rowdy Sid can be at times.

It's also wise to learn to place problem packages on hold, perform an upgrade, and then unhold the packages until you upgrade again.  You'll understand more about this as you begin using Sid.

hhh wrote:

Oh, and my time with aptosid (before the siduction split) made me a firm believer in switching out of init 5 for upgrades (to avoid X borkage), even though people will swear this isn't necessary...

Some Siduction users now question whether that ever was necessary.

hinto wrote:

siduction is not so adamant wink

Hah!  Go post a question on one of  their forums about a problem you're having and mention smxi.  You will not get any help.  I'm not denigrating the Siduction forums, I'm just stating fact based on the times I've been there.  They do not support smxi and they'll tell you that in a heart beat.  I've even seen derogatory remarks made about smxi on the forums.

Last edited by KrunchTime (2015-07-15 07:12:47)


Linux User #586672
Come and Die -- Kyle Idleman

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#20 2015-07-15 08:00:40

porkpiehat
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-10-02
Posts: 1,007

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

KrunchTime wrote:

I've even seen derogatory remarks made about smxi on the forums.

Oh no! Derogatory remarks about a bloated bash script that doesn't do anything you can't do yourself with some simple commands? Those bastards!

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#21 2015-07-15 10:13:31

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 967
Website

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

This has been very helpful. I wasn't aware for example that Sid froze like testing. Or of those aptitude commands.

I'm a little ways off from switching, but I like to do my research and polling in advance when possible.

Thanks everyone!

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#22 2015-07-15 13:55:59

hinto
#! Windbag
From: Cary, NC
Registered: 2010-12-08
Posts: 1,487

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

@KrunchTime
FWIW, I'd expect smxi to be supported on smxi.org.
Just like I'd expect liquorix to be supported on liquorix.net
..and just like I'd expect LibreOffice to be supported on libreoffice.org.

-H


"Sometimes I wish I hadn't taken the red pill" -Me

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#23 2015-07-16 07:10:05

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

orionthehunter wrote:

This has been very helpful. I wasn't aware for example that Sid froze like testing. Or of those aptitude commands.

I'm a little ways off from switching, but I like to do my research and polling in advance when possible.

Thanks everyone!

It's also a good idea to peruse the Siduction forums or even become a member.  I've learned some things from others in the forums.


Linux User #586672
Come and Die -- Kyle Idleman

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#24 2015-07-16 07:32:46

porkpiehat
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-10-02
Posts: 1,007

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

you use sid? you need LinuxBBQ.

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#25 2015-08-01 01:05:55

jdonaghy
The Manatee Whisperer
Registered: 2014-03-12
Posts: 925

Re: Debian Sid upgrade intervals

The simplest way to keep a Sid system up running is to do as many manual, in-place libc upgrades as possible. Go for the experimental versions. Backups are bad luck and not recommended.


"If you can't control your peanut butter, you can't expect to control your life."
    --Bill Watterson

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