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#26 2015-03-28 10:53:03

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

spacex wrote:

I said that you were fine with SysVinit now. But you won't be two years from now.

As a illustration. From Sparky LXDE,

"‘network-manager-gnome’ depends of ‘network-manager’ which depends of ‘libpam-systemd’, which depends of ‘systemd’. So upgrading ‘network-manager-gnome’ will install ‘systemd’ as default."

If you then remove systemd, you will remove network-manager with it. The fix? Easy, just install systemd-sysv ... But that's the kind of fix that are beyond unskilled users. They won't understand why they cant logout or shutdown. They will never think of the fix,connect it to SysVinit or find the solution by googling. They will ask the same questions over and over again....

And this is just the beginning... The same thing will happen wit lightdm, synaptic, gdebi and so on.... Just you wait and see smile

You don't have to remove systemd to use SysVinit!

In fact, you should not attempt to remove systemd if you want to use SysVinit.

All that is needed is this command:

# apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim systemd-sysv-

Please read the advice from the Debian developers on this subject:
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd

If this advice is followed (rather than just randomly attempting to purge all systemd related packages) then using Debian jessie with SysVinit as PID1 will work just fine throughout it's entire lifecycle regardless of other changes.

EDIT: For the record, I am not a systemd-hater -- I use it on my Arch & Debian systems; on the Debian forums I am considered to be a systemd fanboi...

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2015-03-28 11:37:25)

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#27 2015-03-29 12:26:08

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

@HoaS

Yes, but I'm pretty sure that this is just a temporary workaround to take the edge of the resistance. But I guess time will tell.

One point though. General users will never read any advice from The Debian developers on this topic. Further more, in what world is anyone imaging that normal users will be able to choose between init systems? So I stick to my case. One default init-system, and then let the expert and others that doesn't like systemd, figure it out on their own.

There isn't a single unskilled user that ever will question systemd as the init-system. You on the other hand, have the ability to do it yourself, and therefore, you are in absolutely no need of Bunsen being init agnostic. There is only one thing to gain from doing this, and that is to confuse regular users and cause endless debates and questions.

Also, it will create two fractions. Those who use systemd, and those who don't, and it complicates the forum structure and the support, as the non-systemd users will require different support in some aspects. So then it's not only the stable/unstable split, but you also get the systemd/non-systemd split, for both stable and unstable...

It fragments the forum, and if you instead try to merge both in the same sections, you get a unclean and confusing mess. So my suggestion is as follows. Systemd as default, and simply add a forum section for non-systemd, with sticky manuals/tutorials, and the opportunity to ask questions about using other init-alternatives. Keep it 100% separate from Bunsen and the rest of the community.

Once again, just my opinion. It's perfectly fine to disagree, but I won't be changing my mind in this matter. For once I have decided to go with the flow, and I'm leaving SysVinit behind me, as I also have done with bios-boot and the mbr-table. We must move forward instead of always sticking with the things we are used to, and the things we know best. Everything has a end, and SysVinit has been around for much longer than it should have. A change is highly due, just as it was with bios-boot and the mbr-table. We shouldn't strive to maintain a museum  smile

This also means that we at some point should leave X, openbox and Tint2 behind us  tongue


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#28 2015-03-29 12:32:26

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

spacex wrote:

in what world is anyone imaging that normal users will be able to choose between init systems?

The Debian jessie GRUB scripts now provide a menu entry to choose SysVinit as PID1 so it's as simple as pressing the down arrow...

Also:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=39368

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#29 2015-03-29 12:38:25

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

spacex wrote:

One point though. General users will never read any advice from The Debian developers on this topic. Further more, in what world is anyone imaging that normal users will be able to choose between init systems? So I stick to my case. One default init-system, and then let the expert and others that doesn't like systemd, figure it out on their own.

There isn't a single unskilled user that ever will question systemd as the init-system. You on the other hand, have the ability to do it yourself, and therefore, you are in absolutely no need of Bunsen being init agnostic. There is only one thing to gain from doing this, and that is to confuse regular users and cause endless debates and questions.

Also, it will create two fractions. Those who use systemd, and those who don't, and it complicates the forum structure and the support, as the non-systemd users will require different support in some aspects. So then it's not only the stable/unstable split, but you also get the systemd/non-systemd split, for both stable and unstable...

It fragments the forum, and if you instead try to merge both in the same sections, you get a unclean and confusing mess. So my suggestion is as follows. Systemd as default, and simply add a forum section for non-systemd, with sticky manuals/tutorials, and the opportunity to ask questions about using other init-alternatives. Keep it 100% separate from Bunsen and the rest of the community.
...

FWIW, I agree completely with all of the above.

An install of BunsenLabs will have the default systemd init, so I can't see the point in having init-agnostic scripts. Anyone who then rewinds it to sysvinit should be more than capable of editing any scripts they feel the need to.


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#30 2015-04-08 04:08:16

TheFox
New Member
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 3

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

damo wrote:

An install of BunsenLabs will have the default systemd init, so I can't see the point in having init-agnostic scripts. Anyone who then rewinds it to sysvinit should be more than capable of editing any scripts they feel the need to.

This may all be done and dusted, but there is a good reason for having agnostic scripts, and packages, where possible: any dependency that is introduced by a script that is included in a package cannot be removed simply by editing that script, post-install.

Assuming the packaging system is being used as intended, installing the package containing the script will pull in the "required" packages. Essentially anyone wishing to install and use this without systemd would have to not only edit the scripts, but also repackage them, essentially creating a fork, or else have to engage in black-belt hacking with dummy packages and fake "provides" declarations, which have a high risk of breaking things. Anyone following conventional wisdom for upgrading to Jessie repositories without being forced to switch to systemd (by pinning systemd with negative priority), may find they won't be able to upgrade from Crunchbang to BunsenLabs.

In this particular case, the issue could be avoided by at most five lines of script. That seems a small price to pay for added choice and flexibility.

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#31 2015-04-08 05:56:18

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

@TheFox (and other interested parties): A compromise has been reached on this issue. Per johnraff's suggestion:

johnraff wrote:

... It was still easy to look through that script, find the system calls and replace the dbus commands with systemctl ones. If there was a single command that worked on all init systems and did not require the editing of sudoers, then for sure  I would recommend we use it.

A single command was identified that 1) utilizes dbus-send to signal the systemd-login service, 2) does not require systemd-sysv (systemd as init system), and 3) allows for systemd-shim plus any other init system (alt init plus systemd service compatibility).   See this commit at github for implementation details.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#32 2015-04-09 22:58:34

TheFox
New Member
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 3

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

@cpoakes

Thanks, that looks like a fine solution to me.

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