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#76 2015-02-09 08:48:23

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

OK, I finally got some sleep and have taken a little time away from the CrunchBang forum; I feel much better now and can approach this with a much clearer mind now.

To me, there are a few important things to keep in mind:

First:  We need to be thinking of CrunchBang as "of the past".  Philip already does, and he wants us to do the same.  It's important to respect The Creator's wishes.  Also, as has been mentioned, there has been no active development on packages in the Waldorf repo since spring 2013; all updates since then have come directly from the Debian Wheezy repo and will continue to do so for as long as Wheezy is supported by Debian.

Second:  Philip will most likely not be a party to whatever CrunchBang's spiritual successor happens to be, and he has clearly stated that he wants a clean break from this distro that he considers "of the past".  I think it would be appropriate to have "inspired by the CrunchBang distro created by Philip Newborough (aka corenominal)" somewhere in the documentation, but there needs to be a clear name change in order to let him put this behind him.

Third:  Most importantly, we need to think of CrunchBang not in terms of the packages that went into making it, but in terms of the user experience it provided.  Yes, it was built with Openbox, Conky, tint2, Nitrogen, Thunar (occasionally PCManFM), and Iceweasel (occasionally Chromium), but that's all irrelevant.  What these packages provided was a light desktop environment with a manually edited desktop menu, transparent system monitor, a simple multi-desktop panel with a systray, a wallpaper picker that easily hanndles multiple monitors, and a file manager and web browser.  In my humble opinion, it shouldn't matter what packages provide these in any successor to CrunchBang; what is important is the user interface/experience.  (It would be nice to be able to extend this experience to the GRUB and DM themes, as Philip did in CrunchBang...)  With this in mind, I believe we should be DE-agnostic in chosing what packages to consider.

Finally:  As "big picture guy", I'm probably not the best choice for a project leader.  I plan to continue to be a member of this community, and if you'll have me, I'd be honored to continue to serve as a moderator, but I'm happy to hand the reigns of development and maintenance over to people who are better qualified for those tasks.

(Split off to separate post to keep this one relatively brief.)

Last edited by pvsage (2015-02-09 08:49:56)

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#77 2015-02-09 09:00:23

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

Finally:  As "big picture guy", I'm probably not the best choice for a project leader.  I plan to continue to be a member of this community, and if you'll have me, I'd be honored to continue to serve as a moderator, but I'm happy to hand the reigns of development and maintenance over to people who are better qualified for those tasks.

Well, that post shows to me you seem to have a pretty good grasp of the big picture there. I don't know if a project leader has to be the person with the highest level of technical knowlege (not that I'm belittling yours at all), but if you get some people to cover the various sub-areas that will need working on - yes, development and maintenance too - we'd need a "big picture" person to hold it all together. It's a different job from knowing how to deal with debian repositories, for example. It's your decision, but I still think you'd do a good job.

Last edited by johnraff (2015-02-09 09:01:50)


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#78 2015-02-09 09:03:56

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

My first attempt at developing a spiritual successor to CrunchBang is made from a Debian Jessie install with LXDE, then stripped down a little bit, Nitrogen, tint2, and Conky added, using configs taken directly from the Waldorf packages and modified as little as possible, but I plan to attempt to make similar environments using other DEs, WMs, and I plan to consider different panels, system monitors, and wallpaper pickers.

Steps taken after initial install:

Remove redundant drive entries from /etc/fstab.

Fix /etc/apt/sources.list.  (This step was necessary on my insstallation because the Debian installer "could not find a default route" to the interwebz.)  The entries currently are:

deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free

and include all the standard documentation comments.

NOTE
Any install script we come up with should be adequately documented in on-screen feedback for a first-time Debian user who has successfully installed from "debian-(codename)-(whatever-rc)-(architecture)-(relevant-desktop)-CD-1.iso" to understand what is happening and why, even if some of this feedback might elicit a "Captain Obvious" response from someone with even a few days' experience with Debian or another Linux distro.  If any of this documentation runs into a wall of text, this may require using a pager like less, or even the dreaded

echo '<press any key to continue>';more

every 15-20 lines

`sudo apt-get update`

At this point, simulating `sudo apt-get upgrade`, sudo apt-get upgrade --no-install-recommends`, and `sudo apt-get dist-upgrade` all show exactly the same packages, so I proceeded with `sudo apt-get dist-upgrade`.

Installed tint2; copied an unmodified version of ~/.config/tint2/tint2rc from a Waldorf installation; replaced "@lxpanel --profile LXDE" in ~/.config/lxsession/LXDE/autostart with "@tint2" and remove "@pcmanfm --desktop --profile LXDE"; copied ~/.config/openbox/* from Waldorf installation; dug up unmodified version of ~/.config/conkyrc.

Changed "Desktop Preferences" (from LXSession's default right-cllick menu) to show menus provided by window managers and not use desktop as folder.  Right-click, reconfigure, hold breath...so far, so good.

No Geany installed at this point, so editing ~/.config/openbox/menu.xml to open Leafpad instead and changing all geany references to leafpad.  (Is there really no x-text-editor in debian-alternatives in a vanilla Debian install?)  Also changing "terminator --command" to "x-terminal-editor -e".  No cb-pipemenus or compositor at this point, so simply removing those from the menu at this point; I know these are both important to some, but this is my vision of what CrunchBang's successor should be, and those have always been redundant to me.  Removed " ~/images/wallpapers" from Nitrogen invocation because this has caused some users headaches, because the default image path is ~/Pictures in Debian, and because I don't feel like including anywhere near as many /etc/skel files as Philip did.  Basically, I'm removing stuff that I didn't use in Waldorf and don't expect to use in the near future, and changing what I do intend to use to what's in LXDE where possible.  Lighter is better, and stuff can be added back in as the need arises.  (I am installing things that I found handy in Waldorf though, e.g. Catfish.)

Additional packages installed so far:
gmrun
suckless-tools
htop
catfish
alsa-tools
alsa-tools-gui
alsa-oss
alsamixergui
libalsaplayer0
gstreamer0.10-alsa
xfburn
abiword
gnumeric
obmenu
arandr
nitrogen
gparted

Similar changes to ~/.config/openbox/rc.xml.  In a default LXDE install, Alt-F2 launches `lxpanelctl run`; since I hope to purge lxpanel, I'm installing gmrun and suckless-tools (for dmenu).  If rc.xml isn't picked up after renaming lxde.rc (so far it's being ignored), might have to do away with lxde altogether and go bare Openbox as Philip did.  (EDIT:  Looks like rc.xml is either derprecated or redundant in lxde, as lxde.xml serves similar functions.  Need to look at migrating many of the keyboard shortcuts to lxde.xml.)

Restart, hold breath...OK, logging in with no trouble.  Installed volumeicon-alsa as suitable replacement for volwheel; handles xf86audio buttons natively, no need for any of the audio/volume packages from xfce.  Starting Nitrogen to pick approprately shaded image from the default Jessie wallpapers...not bad.

Posting from working session right now; still needs tweaking, but here's a scrot:
2015_02_09_1423472540_1920x1080_scrot.jpg
direct link

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#79 2015-02-09 09:13:15

ferenc
#! Member
Registered: 2012-11-20
Posts: 69

Re: The Beginning.

hi,

I am on lubuntu's openbox session on my haswell PC. It works - i'll give them credit. Works well and their kernel (and proprietary drivers app) handles radeon r7 way better than debian sid (tried...). As I said, debian gave me headaches (7.8 and testing/sid)

I am willing to contribute a montly sum of 1 eur, no problem, to have the exact same thing as #! - a workhorse with stability. Same apps if Thunar is at least 1.6 wink So a whole package, because I really do not have time to build things myself. Some custom options (khm, smxi included and running in the idso would be nice to have liquorix kernels...)

But it has to beat lubuntu, which - as I said - is working well above my expectations. Install took 5 minutes, setting things up 1 day (still remove bloat daily), but it seems rock stable. Ok, so it has FF and not Iceweasel...

If corenominal would waive the name for an "official" continuation, it would be great. #! has a name. If it is not possible, then start anew.

So... let me know.

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#80 2015-02-09 09:17:14

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage for president!

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#81 2015-02-09 09:26:34

ferenc
#! Member
Registered: 2012-11-20
Posts: 69

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage: which kernel?

b

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#82 2015-02-09 10:07:19

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

^ Whatever Debian Jessie rc-1 has.  Um, 3.16.0-4-amd64 I think.

@WM:  "I hereby state, and mean all that I say, that I never have been and never will be a candidate..." lol

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#83 2015-02-09 10:22:13

vic
#! by Default
From: /grill
Registered: 2009-02-13
Posts: 3,361

Re: The Beginning.

Great work pvsage!


Time to move on!#

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#84 2015-02-09 10:54:47

HELPME
#! Junkie
From: the holley land
Registered: 2013-11-15
Posts: 256
Website

Re: The Beginning.

has anyone done project management?
Ive been knocking out all of the coding classes for my degree first because I find them more enjoyable
I wont have project management until september this year or next depending on whether I want to do web-based databases and system architectures first and they are more exciting than politics

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#85 2015-02-09 11:23:53

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

OK, I still have yet to tweak lxde.xml, but I've run into a minor annoyance:  system notifications place an icon in the tint2 systray.  I'd like to be able to suppress this activity without disabling the notifications themselves...I'm sure it's a simple tweak in one of the configs.

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#86 2015-02-09 11:28:23

Kuno
#! Die Hard
From: Osnabrück - DE
Registered: 2009-01-09
Posts: 674

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

^ Whatever Debian Jessie rc-1 has.  Um, 3.16.0-4-amd64 I think.

@ferenc:.  if you if enable the liquorix-repos in sources.list, you get Kernel 3.18-6.dmz.1-liquorix-amd64.

@psavage: i went the same way setting up my cb-clone on sid. When stripping down lxde, i even removed lxsession. And it śeems, lxsession isn't really needed. Choosing the "pure" openbox-session in lightdm loginscreen and than removing lxsession just required to change the startup configs to the old #! - standards.

Regarding notifications: i remember to get that fixed i had to fiddle with different "notify"-packages. Installed i have: libnotify4, libnotify-bin and xfce4-notifyd.

Last edited by Kuno (2015-02-09 11:34:18)

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#87 2015-02-09 11:40:45

Zill
#! CrunchBanger
From: Lincolnshire, UK
Registered: 2009-10-25
Posts: 201

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

... Most importantly, we need to think of CrunchBang not in terms of the packages that went into making it, but in terms of the user experience it provided.  Yes, it was built with Openbox, Conky, tint2, Nitrogen, Thunar (occasionally PCManFM), and Iceweasel (occasionally Chromium), but that's all irrelevant.  What these packages provided was a light desktop environment with a manually edited desktop menu, transparent system monitor, a simple multi-desktop panel with a systray, a wallpaper picker that easily hanndles multiple monitors, and a file manager and web browser.  In my humble opinion, it shouldn't matter what packages provide these in any successor to CrunchBang; what is important is the user interface/experience.  (It would be nice to be able to extend this experience to the GRUB and DM themes, as Philip did in CrunchBang...)  With this in mind, I believe we should be DE-agnostic in chosing what packages to consider...

This is a very clear, analytical post about the direction the #! successor could (should?) go in and I strongly agree with much of it.  My main concern is that there is now much discussion about Desktop Environments which is something our beloved #! managed to avoid by just using the Openbox Window Manager.

I may be wrong but I think using a full blown DE, rather than just a WM, will reduce the lightness of the system and the important capability to install the system on older and low-end hardware.  This was, and IMHO should remain, a very desirable objective for our "new" distro if it is to maintain a USP.

pvsage wrote:

...Finally:  As "big picture guy", I'm probably not the best choice for a project leader.  I plan to continue to be a member of this community, and if you'll have me, I'd be honored to continue to serve as a moderator, but I'm happy to hand the reigns of development and maintenance over to people who are better qualified for those tasks.

Your analysis of the "big picture" shows that you are very well qualified to be project leader IMHO.  Yes, we certainly need lots of clever people to delve into the inner-workings of our distro.  But the folk who can solve deep technical problems sometimes can't see the wood for the trees and so someone who can take a clear overview is extremely useful.  You have my vote!  smile

Last edited by Zill (2015-02-09 11:41:04)

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#88 2015-02-09 12:01:42

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: The Beginning.

^Agreed.

In terms of project, there's only really "doing it". I suggest you build a prototype and present that to Twoion's group and see what comes out of that, what the views are, what technical help is needed and work from there. Then when you have something more polished you can socialise it more widely. You already have some idea of where this should go and that's probably all that's needed right now.

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#89 2015-02-09 12:26:47

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

In light of everyone thrusting the mantle upon me, I've finally decided to watch the Linux Sucks 2014 video.  I highly recommend it to anyone interested in pursuing this project, as much of it is about project development.

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#90 2015-02-09 12:39:37

photonucleon
Quantum Geek
From: Hogwarts
Registered: 2013-06-10
Posts: 952

Re: The Beginning.

@pvsage and everyone else: I've done some experimenting over the last couple of days, and I have had a LOT of success stripping down Debian Jessie Xfce version to an openbox+tint2 interface (I always thought of #! as more Xfce than LXDE).

I gutted out all of the Xfce bloat but kept Thunar and the Power Manager and a couple of other bits, added Openbox, tint2 and Nitrogen, switched Xfce Terminal for Terminator, and installed gmrun. Removed LibreOffice, orage, notes, etc. Next step: putting together the Openbox Menu, and getting some theming done. I'll post screenshots when I can. I've yet to install Conky, but it's coming. Other planned features include expose-style window navigation powered by skippy-xd.

I'll be using the tutorial on debian respinning (by damo, iirc) to put it all together in the end, at which point I'll make it available. Assuming all goes according to plan, of course. If nothing else, I'll have learned a lot about Debian. smile

Watch this space! big_smile

Last edited by photonucleon (2015-02-09 12:40:07)


- Ai! Aníron Undómiel. -
- Some things are certain. -
- Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. -

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#91 2015-02-09 12:49:47

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2012-03-22
Posts: 1,026
Website

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

Third:  Most importantly, we need to think of CrunchBang not in terms of the packages that went into making it, but in terms of the user experience it provided.  Yes, it was built with Openbox, Conky, tint2, Nitrogen, Thunar (occasionally PCManFM), and Iceweasel (occasionally Chromium), but that's all irrelevant.  What these packages provided was a light desktop environment with a manually edited desktop menu, transparent system monitor, a simple multi-desktop panel with a systray, a wallpaper picker that easily hanndles multiple monitors, and a file manager and web browser.  In my humble opinion, it shouldn't matter what packages provide these in any successor to CrunchBang; what is important is the user interface/experience.  (It would be nice to be able to extend this experience to the GRUB and DM themes, as Philip did in CrunchBang...)  With this in mind, I believe we should be DE-agnostic in chosing what packages to consider.

+1000

This is exactly what I think. EXCEPT for the WM-agnostic (i.e. DE-agnostic) part, for the following reasons:
- it is a successor of CrunchBang
- it will nicely fill the gap: almost no distro is based on debian with OpenBox, and lightweight, and newbie-friendly
- strategically wise: it might be too much work to do to make and actively maintain a distro with several WM available; let's stick to single one (yes, the OpenBox tongue ), and then (at some later time) write instructions how to change it to let's say PekWM, i3, GNOME, xfce ...
- I would like to cite intoCB's post as a relevant one

Here I would add another opinion: for god's sake, do not use DE by default. Let it be WM-only (with DM) ... wink

Disclaimer: this is simply my humble opinion. I'm not dev, probably won't be anyway (tester at most) ... so it is up to coordination group to define the direction new (re)spin will take.


Postpone all your duties; if you die, you won't have to do them ..
--> The very new BL forum! <--

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#92 2015-02-09 13:45:36

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

Short version is as much as I appreciate the work you've done on crunchy-dark-gray, I'm trying to find a DE that makes it redundant by letting the user adjust colors of all applications on the fly, yet still has the lightweight feel of CrunchBang.

Not what I was driving at, but thanks. smile Ah, color picker thingies, got it.

pvsage wrote:

Posting from working session right now; still needs tweaking, but here's a scrot:
direct link

Dat so priddeh, I wish it was in the screenshot thread. Themes and icon set, please! I like the switch to the Joy wallpaper, feels more #!y. You should post a scrot with the right-click menu showing. You are doing some work! Great decisions, great implementation, hope you'll spin an ISO, you go man. Word.

For GRUB theming, start by throwing a custom wallpaper (joy-grub.png, for example) in /boot/grub or symlink your image from /usr/share/images/desktop-base/lines-grub.png. I don't think you mentioned what DM or Login screen you were using.

Thumbs up!


bunsenlabs     8)     forum mod squad

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#93 2015-02-09 13:53:42

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: The Beginning.

iMBeCil wrote:

Here I would add another opinion: for god's sake, do not use DE by default. Let it be WM-only (with DM) ... wink

+1, it's what the cool kids run. cool <-me!

Ha!


bunsenlabs     8)     forum mod squad

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#94 2015-02-09 14:01:55

HELPME
#! Junkie
From: the holley land
Registered: 2013-11-15
Posts: 256
Website

Re: The Beginning.

whats the stance on repackaging other peoples software?
because in debian stable so much is outdated can we repackage the newer versions for our own repo/distro?
should we reach out to the owners and ask for permissions?
some of the warez I use are abandoned like ignorant guru sandfox
whats the status quo?

I have a mandatory class I must take for this kind of thing but Ive been putting it off because it sounds so boring
ethics and law
Ill do it next year

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#95 2015-02-09 14:19:53

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: The Beginning.

HELPME wrote:

whats the stance on repackaging other peoples software?...

Most of the Crunchbang repo is software repackaged by corenominal


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#96 2015-02-09 14:27:42

HELPME
#! Junkie
From: the holley land
Registered: 2013-11-15
Posts: 256
Website

Re: The Beginning.

I thought it all just comes from debian?

we should make efforts to follow the developments and keep them on ice
we would need a testing distro of our own though?

Last edited by HELPME (2015-02-09 14:29:37)

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#97 2015-02-09 14:32:39

freistil
#! Member
Registered: 2014-12-16
Posts: 66

Re: The Beginning.

A sad read I had. But I am glad that people here try to jump over that shadow and keep the spirit of the distro alive.
Great!


I have privately a lot of experience with project management, but if there is something I learned, then "Don't lead a project that you understand less than 50% on your own." and I have to admit, that I am far away from there. Otherwise I would be open to engage myself in the management there. Of course I a open to help though, experience comes from spending time with a project. I vote for pvsage as well.

If I got the discussion right in the 'Beginning' end 'End' thread, a lot of users want (at least for now) the distro to be kept alive and that's a good sign. As we know,  #! was 90-95%plain Debian, but was recognized as a complete individual distro with a complete different community. So let's delve deeper here.
A lot of things #! made a different (and surprisingly popular!) experience was the combination of user-friendliness and lightweighness I guess. cb-welcome was an easy way to expand the system into a ready-to-go state, openbox+tint+conky gave the distro a very light approach that was not as bloated as Unity, but almost as easy to set up.

That means, #! was able to combine the deepness of a 'real' debian system with (almost) the user-friendliness of ubuntu-distros, while giving you an arch-like setup and experience. And I therefore see this as something very unique that is needed and wanted by users. I think this is mirrored by the general behavior of the community, that is open, friendly and wants to delp a little deeper into tech. So we should stick to that.

The question if #! is/was actually needed to be an own distro - yeah, that's a good question. It does not have to be a fork from beginning on, but you have to start somewhere. And as pointed out often enough, Debian + Openbox is not the same as #!, it just tries to come very close. Otherwise Lubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etcetc. would not have any reason to exist, although you can get Lubuntu by just tweaking Ubuntu in a certain way.


I think as a first 'exercise' we should start organizing infrastructure. People like pvsage, who have obviously a deeper understanding of what and how corenomial organized #! and with what thought he developed the additional 10-5% that set the distro apart.
They should form a group and build a correct and well-working script (there are lots of promising prototypes here already!) that completely replicate an self-made #! from plain Debian Jessie netinst. That means self-made welcome-scripts, defined menus, a selection of applications that make sense on today's basis.
Jessie is in freeze now, so a chance to actually go and try concrete stuff.

If this works and is properly tested, we can work on modifying it a little more, see how the community reacts and what they think. corenomial set up that janice thread, we can take a look there for first suggestions.

The focus should be a combination of:

  • Debian based

  • User friendlyness (I know that many active Linux users have problems with that term, but for people who have problems with that, there will be Debian. Remember why Mint and Ubuntu are more popular than Debian! That's not just support, that's user-friendliness to a big extend!)

  • Lightweight (does not have to be super-tied down, but it should be able to compete with Lubuntu in that matter and win)

After that, we can keep on thinking about how to pull this more and more away from a script to a distributable ISO.
This would be then the first RC.
Long way to go there.

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#98 2015-02-09 14:47:37

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

Great job, pvsage!

Just my humble 2cents on this. First cent... I fully agree with your vision on the Chruchbang follow-up. Whatever the name. Nevertheless, I don't favor too much the LXDE route since the LXDE (present and) future will be (is already) taking a full different route (merged with Razor-Qt) and moving towards the Qt toolkit replacing the former GTK altogether (LXQt). Besides I'm personally a strong Qt lover, this changes things way too much from where we are now; A fully GTK based system.

Second cent:  By checking many Debian based light-weight WM distros out there. My impression and experience is that barely... well, only Vsido is pretty close to the Crunchbang principles. KISS, fully funtional yet lightweight, simple, capable and complete system with a nice bunch of customized tweaks, setups and tools. Vsido runs on Sid. So perhaps we should take a glimpse at Vsido to put together a somewhat similar Debian Stable based distro coming from what Crunchbang already is. Of course Vsido uses somewhat different apps and packages, but IMO, that's not important. The important thing is the philosophy and concept behind these two outstanding Debian based distros. Many #! users use and love Vsido and viceversa for very good reasons.

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#99 2015-02-09 14:53:00

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: The Beginning.

Based on my own experience and seeing the work that pvsage has done I feel like this is highly apropos

They should form a group and build a correct and well-working script (there are lots of promising prototypes here already!) that completely replicate an self-made #! from plain Debian Jessie netinst. That means self-made welcome-scripts, defined menus, a selection of applications that make sense on today's basis.

If it is possible to build a script that fires from the Debian netinst that allows us to cherry pick packages, then copy configs into their appropriate place, that would be highly useful.

I ended up going the Arch route and building Openbox up from the shell but I am sure that's not something that everyone would have the knowledge or time to fool with.

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Help fund CrunchBang, donate to the project!

#100 2015-02-09 15:03:06

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: The Beginning.

Maybe before long we need to sketch out an outline of the different areas of the work that needs to be done.
For example:

*)CONTENT:
graphics
theming
fonts
configuration
menus
basic apps to build UI
'under the hood' stuff like pam, gvfs...

*)DELIVERY:
"how to" posts
scripts
metapackages
remastersys-type iso files
Debian custom installer isos
Above, also with live session

-----------------------

Then, some kind of roadmap: what goals need to be achieved in what order, and in what sort of timescale.

-----------------------

At the same time, dividing up the work to be done among people best able to handle it...

...plenty to think about... crazy.gif


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
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