vlc's read this, I'll just leave it here...
Thanks hhh. In the end I`ll probably just run with the pack
Time to move on!#
Sure thing! As I mentioned there and unless Christian Sleiter is lying out of his butt and nobody else in Debian has called out his lies, if you're using sysvinit on jessie in a normal user situation (not a super minimal system), you'll have systemd on your system but you'll only use logind from it (I think I'm understanding that right).
I've switched to systemd on my netbook and it really is a pleasure to have boot-up be so much faster (maybe a third of the time in my case).
PS: Read was past tense in my last post, kinda hard to tell from that sentence. 8o
This situation leaves me a bit uneasy. I'm sure sooner or later all distros (even Slackware or Gentoo) will end up giving in to systemd.
Yep...someone over in the SalixOS (Slackware spin) forums admitted such, atleast regarding Slackware. I can't speak about Gentoo.
If you guys really love sysvinit so much, you can always switch to HURD or BSD systems. For the life of me I can't understand what the controversy is all about. Every single complaint I've ever heard about systemd seems quite petty and borders on conspiracy-theorist type mentality. It's been running on a system of mine since it got ported to arch, I've used and abused it, it's quite stable for me. My system still boots up fine, I can start and stop services, and I haven't yet felt like I'm being hypnotized to worship Pottering or anything. Linux is a moving target, stuff is going to change and keep changing. If you want to use systemd alternatives with Linux, it's probably going to cause you more grief than just using systemd would.
Edit: Made language less abrasive.
Last edited by mynis01 (2015-01-10 11:53:31)
Time to move on!#
Normally, when discussed between two opposing positions, no one has the absolute truth. In my case, it is obvious that I don't know about linux as much as many users around here. Therefore I will speak only of philosophical issues or whatever you want to call.
From everything I read, with this new movement, I get the feeling that linux moves away from the idyllic image I had of a great community, where linux was not the only one, with their differences but with not hope to compete or resemble anyone. I'm sure more than one will be laughing at my words and it seems perfect.
Anyway I am aware that the division is not usually good for nothing, but what you say is true, nobody forces me to be here.
Looking on the bright side of all this, can learn another os and that always liked me.
For the life of me I can't understand what the controversy is all about. Every single complaint I've ever heard about systemd seems quite petty and borders on conspiracy-theorist type mentality.
Agreed. The major detractors all seem to fear what systemd will do in the future (due to the attitude of GNOME concerning user complaints, bug reports and other DEs), not what it's doing now.
... I don't like single-issue people, nor do I think that people who turn the world into black and white are very nice or ultimately very useful. The fact is, there aren't just two sides to any issue, there's almost always a range or responses, and "it depends" is almost always the right answer in any big question. And not being even willing to see the other side makes for bad decisions.
Don't get me wrong - I love seeing people who are really passionate about what they do, and many people have something they really care about. It's just that when that becomes something exclusionary, it often gets ugly. It's not passion for something, it becomes passion against something else.
If you want to use systemd alternatives with Linux, it's probably going to cause you more grief than just using systemd would.
No, not using systemd in Debian is trivial...
Removing it entirely from your jessie system, OTOH, is not practical for most users.
This debate is over in Debian. The debate lasted for months and was ugly, the decision was made, the teeth were gnashed and jessie will (in most cases) require the use of at least part of systemd.
Having used systemd for a couple of months, I can honestly say it is an improvement over SysV. Bootups are much faster. It's journals provide a wealth of useful info all the way through the boot process. For instance, I figured out my power management problems stem from a much needed bios update thanks to journald. The old syslogs showed the errors but journald just seemed to be more informative.
I still remain skeptical if Poettering has his way with featur-itis, however, we always have the option to switch to something different in the future if that becomes the case and we end up with a bug ridden, bloated init system. Of course, having designed software in the past, I can say that the hallmark of a good program is people tend to say oh cool, let's make it do this and this and this. I'd love it if my laptop could brew my coffee and keep it warm for me, yet experience has taught me to be careful what you ask for .
I'd suggest to anyone worried about it, upgrade to jessie and give it a spin, in a VM if you prefer, and see for yourself. If after having given it a thorough test-drive you still hate it, then think about what to do from there.
Last edited by tknomanzr (2015-01-10 19:32:06)
Dang it, ya know I canna resist posting to this !!!! How friggin dare you people be intelligent, cool and funny !!!? What are ya trying to pull I say ?! Really are some kickbutt nixers in this forum. WARNING, this is an epic amount of babble even for me. It should have pg numberz and be split up into several posts. Arghhhh.
Thanks for the shares, even the mini-flamewars that sprung up in this thread have been entertaining. Now sorta on topic babble shall speweth forth !
Agree w Core on this, that being am already uber burnt out on the subject. My money is he'll do what he's always done. Apply crunchification to whatever Debian stable comes out and code-name it a variation of whatever Deb calls the release. Jessie in this case, #! = Janice ?
Debian comes OOTB w systemd, then of course Janice will as well. Still a ways off and not set in stone. Either way Debian has itself hedged 12-ways to Sunday. They maintain the systemd-shim, plus other easy alternatives available to the userbase or DIY options. So looks like they are trying to cover as many bases as poss and #! will inherit all the pros and cons thereof.
Jmo ... a good thing. Betting yeah, systemd's going to be the default. Mentioned elsewhere, personally not so sure about including an outdated version of systemd, shrugs. Newer versions, imo should get fast tracked (and might), a replacement default init system isn't a normal situation in Gnu/nix. Though also guessing the version included as of now will be patched and/or proven stable enough to be worthy of release in Debian stable + based or seriously doubt they'd let it loose on the userbase.
So Debian and #! should be in a position to play both ends, against the middle for quite awhile. Overall jmo of systemd, too many credible sources are saying too many good things about it, so am leaning towards approving of it personally. Really won't know, until have experienced 1st hand. Still way too many folks in the know giving it the nod. Even w/o my usual anal, have to see for myself, am concluding systemd's a step up.
Personally not really worried about it overall. For one thing, it ( systemd) is obviously opensource/forkable ie:uselessd < Think they picked a perfect name for the proj, shrugs. So if the main dev-team really starts going nuts w it, some other bigwig opensource guru's might give them the proverbial finger and snatch it away from their control and start rolling back the mess.
One thing I've learned while dorking around with gnu/nix. NEVER, never, ever, not EVER underestimate the nixsters of the world. People are doing amazing, crazy ... incomprehensible things with their software/hardware. They'll keep doing it too. The genie is out of the bottle and I don't think it can be shoved back in. Definitely not without a fight of a lifetime.
Any craptastic party tries to close one door. Nixers will come up with 5 new and unexpected ways to get around it.
Uselessd and why it's totally useless. Clearly makes no sense at all. Taking a piece of software trying to cut it into pieces, far behind the curve and done by people w a fraction of the skills of the original projs dev-team ? It's tarded, why they didn't pick one of the other/MANY actually viable alternatives and come at it in a different way, is beyond me. They aren't trying to reinvent the wheel, they're wasting time trying to reinvent whatever came before the wheel imo, shrugs.
Plus ... who da heel is going to trust this obviously incompetent knuckle-head ?!?!? Not only is their judgement clearly for chit. Seen a discussion in the Arch forum, where apparently the proj's server got owned. So leaves people not only poss trusting some unknown quantity with init and pid=1. Proj can't even secure it's server ? Next time around who knows what the script kiddies will do when they get into it ?
Am going w Linus Torvalds ( and Anaconda + others) here. Still walking in the middle of the road on the issue. Looking at alternative init's + work arounds + add buncha other related stuff. Overall am almost convinced systemd is the right thing. With that said though, nothing wrong with having a plan B or C or a plan B for plan C etc. Are other init's and options aplenty and am sure work will continue on them too. Wanting to play around w openrc lately.
Not like gnome is the only game in town ( people use gnomes stuff ... why ? ) or even in dire emergency, not like their aren't archives of perfectly working nixy goodness and versions that give a whit about systemd scattered far and wide too. OMG you mean I can't use network-manager v 3.41-2 ???!! Dang it will have to settle for a much less bloated, yet perfectly working gnome 2.4 ! While the gnu/nix world makes a shift and comes out with better stuff ! It's soooo unfair.
Also ... sheesh I know, am sure you all missed cbiz's babbling. Not all projs, are going to change according to systemd's dictates, for whatever reason(s). Including hey, they don't like being pressured to change and systemd's supposed to be/stay backwards compatible. Think it'll likely have to, at least for more than awhile anyway. Some pretty heavy hitters are still waiting in the wings, reserving judgement. ie: Gentoo and Slackware. Gutterslob has repeatedly said good things about Slackware, that alone makes me want to try it. Plus it has the word Slack in it, thus probably stands for slackers and why Slob-san likes it so much.
Something I can't help but babble a bit about. Devuan ??? Seriously ??!!! There are people who think it's anything but a lame joke ? Lemme get this straight, folks are panicking, that a proj like Debian ( w 20yrs under it's belt) is going to sneakily stab them in the back w this totally evil systemd thing. Yet they are considering turning not just their init system but poss installing an entire OS from these unknown weirdoes calling themselves the VUA ??!?!
Now I know fear makes people do stupid things and the unknown/change often inspires fear BUT COME ON MAN ... 4 REAL !!!? Biz haz been busy bashing in FUDinista's heads in another forum. Not that I'm diehard in support of systemd. Just cuz I've always tried to be diehard anti-retard and anti-bs, shrugs. I agree w that Siduction dev, none of these people are saying anything with a factual technical basis that can stand against systemd.
Poke their bs w a stick, it falls apart in secs. Much as bs always has a way of doing. Sighs ... and so of the kewl and kickbutt cruch-crowd want to leave you's with this lil ditty I wrote. It's a song I'm calling Ode 2 Systemd. Hope you enjoy and am open to collaboration if you'd like to add some verses.
Ohhhhhh systemd, can'tcha see, you're killing me, it's miseryyyyyy. Things should forever stay the sameeee, the way Gnu/Linux is meant to beeeeeee. That is If anyone asked meeeee. Who needs faster boot ??? I don't give a hoot, could someone tell me again, how do I get root ?
I don't like changeeeeee, I think it's strange, don't like learning stufffffff, not my cuppa teaaaaaaa. Linux should stay in the stone ageeeeee. My comfort-zoneeeeee at least until the devuan mothershippppp comes to take me homeeeeee.
Leave MY dear OS aloneeeeeee. Don't make us get out a roll of duct-tape and try 2 make another cloneeeeee. Cuz clearly weeeee don't have a clueeeeee, to make heads/tails of this technical stufffff, Debian we depend on yoouuuuuu. So don't make us fleeeeee, over to bsddddddd, last time we dared posting in their forum, they hit us with a shoeeeeee.
Last edited by CBizgreat! (2015-01-27 10:27:57)
^ Darn it Imbecil ... You are going to have to learn to speak fluent babblese dood !
PS, Thanks Damo, why am I not surprised you didn't lose any sleep over systemd and jumped in feet 1st ? You're one of the people I was babbling about giving it ( systemd) the nod. Seen enough of your posts to be able to trust and value your view/experience on it. Bringing me to the next point of this mostly pointless babble edit.
Not sure why so many people are acting so timid about systemd. Sheesh, why not just slap the sucker on a partition already and see what happens ? Not like it's going to crawl out of your hdd while ya sleep and kill ya or depending upon who you're listening too online, SYSTEMD MIGHT KILL YA IN YOUR SLEEP !!!! D:
Just saying, it's fairly safe to test it out and or if it doesn't please xyz nixer to poke and prod at systemd and learn either how to get it to be acceptable or get rid of it and depends from your install(s)? Atm sadly biz haz the perfect chit-storm situation going.
New lappy w GPT/UEFI, win8.1 and alllllll the fricken stupid headaches that come with multibooting it. ESP partitions, UEFI bootloaders, MSR ( microsoft reserve partition), secure boot, fast start, all the same old moldy M$ booby-traps and some new ones. So am taking it slow and learning how to do it right to keep winblows 8.1 and boot it alongside whatever Gnu/nix distros. Though added buttpain below.
Add to this am in a rural area and stuck when @ home on a metered expensive wireless connection so have to be mindful of how much gets downloaded !!! Got the 1st issue almost ( theorhetically sorted out.) Think I've got it covered and view it as a more serious buttpain to Linux than systemd for real. Debians taking some serious smacks atm. Systemd, GPT/UEFI same time, yay !
Just saying weren't for these stupid circumstances, would've long since pulled in systemd from Deb experimental and been examining da thing under a microscope. It's not gonna kill ya folks. Though we are talking about systemd here .... Oooooo, make sure you get some extra life-insurance, just in case.
Plenty of people here who are already experimenting w it and the consensus seems to be they like it. Plenty of knowledgeable nixers in the crunch-crowd would value the feedback on the topic from, if they'd just go ahead and take the plunge ! Ya know ya wanna anyway.
Last edited by CBizgreat! (2015-01-27 12:22:39)
^ Darn it Imbecil ... You are going to have to learn to speak fluent babblese dood !
I'm trying, I'm trying hard, CBizgreat .... but it seems that without certain additive (booze) I can't really achieve the required level of babblesesisnest to comprehend your message encoded in seemingly random string of letters and - occasionally - words ...
And you know how they say: one can has only at most two of those three, simultaneously:
1) post in #! thread
2) be reasonable
3) be intoxicated (-> and consequently, have reduced vision, in my case 8o )
That is the secret fellow nixer ! You have to get stinking, filthy ... borderlining on alcohol poisoning drunk and then and only then, will the true genius of what I'm babbling about become clear. The trick is making sure you write it down before ya sober up .... or whoosh, nope, it'll just look like insane babble again.
Hahaha ... believe me, I tried, but - during 3) - somehow I experience massively blurred vision, and 1) gets very very difficult ... I mean, like "whetw wre tgode kettwrs on ne leygiward=" and similar ... blimey, it looks like Welsh, desn't it?!?
Last edited by iMBeCil (2015-01-27 12:49:04)
Hmmmm, hadn't thought about the blurring effect. Babble is in fact very hard to keep unblurred no matter what. However ... there are no such things as problems, only opportunities to find solutions. Ya might try squinting your eyes, open one, close the other and tilting your head in different directions ?
0[x < Kinda like that ... sort of ?
Thanks for the laughs guys and also +1 interesting website Damo. Laterz.
Awwww shucks, somebody appreciates good quality babble.
Good to see you too Krunch, see you're still enjoying the nix. Good seeing a buncha the same old faces and some cool new ones. Though errrrr, one of them in particular seems to be getting a tad bit ahead of themselves. I mean did they start giving out prizes for the number of posts or ? HOAS, cough, cough.
Hope everyone knows, that's good natured/intended messing around. Have been stalking HOAS and have a positive opinion of the guy. Think he's intel + cool person.
However w all that said, I'd like to point out something. If we go by some triffling metric, like ohhhhh I dunno, just simple # of posts, welllllll. How meaningful is such a cough* simple metric, how much value are we talking here ? Now ... if we go by several additional metrics, space on disk total, density of words in post etc etc so forth. With the great walls of china babbles I post, it becomes clear that HOAS still has some catching up to do, I WIN DAMMIT, I WIN !
Clearly more joking, am sure HOAS is well aware.
No widdle feelers were hurt, during this post. At least for da luv of da gawds HOPE NOT!
OT: Oops on topic, I knew this guy, who knew a guy, who had a friend, who's cousin told them systemd burnt down their neighbors house, Yep ... systemd, killed em all.
Last edited by CBizgreat! (2015-01-28 09:01:59)
systemd's fast boot is probably fabulous. verbose logs are terrific. using those arguments to slap „systemd haters“ is the new fashion! great. but in the end it's not about speed and logs: it's about what you're ready to secrifice to have them. simple.
[ corenominal mccoder has created a masterpiece. this is a linux distro. all craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. it is crafted of scripts. it menaces with spikes of code. it menaces with spikes of theming. it depicts an image of a crunch. it depicts an image of a bang. the crunch is crunching. the bang is banging. ]
I switched to systemd on waldorf about one and a half year ago and now run a surprisingly stable #! sid for three months.
I still do not not even know, what sacrifice i made... Should i go back to windows ?