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#1 2014-11-20 18:23:44

goossbears
Member
Registered: 2011-03-02
Posts: 21

Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Waldorf (Debian Wheezy) is the current !# Stable, whereas the upcoming Janice (Debian Jessie) is the current !# Testing and the future !# Stable. As I think most people are probably aware, systemd is to be the initialization process of !# Janice.

As I myself don't really prefer using systemd, any thoughts of
1. How long the current !# Waldorf will be kept around?
(Sure, I can just make sure that my /etc/apt/sources.list file keeps all of its appropriate Debian "wheezy" entries instead of Debian "stable")
2. Whether it even makes any difference how long !# Waldorf and Debian Wheezy will be around if my !# machines are running perfectly smoothly on them as they are and I perform my regular repository apt-get updates and upgrades??

Note: I already realize all too well that Janice/Jessie is implementing systemd to replace Waldorf's/Wheezy's current SysV initialization sad

TYIA for any +/- thoughts.

Last edited by goossbears (2014-11-20 18:26:23)

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#2 2014-11-20 18:39:21

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

1. Will become instantly obsolete -- receive no more security updates and fixes by way of Debian stable -- if wheezy is not promoted to both oldstable and LTS status. This has happened with squeeze, but it's not exactly guaranteed to happen with wheezy.
2. See (1). You won't get any updates and fixes if wheezy doesn't get lts. Your system of course will continue to run fine, but possibly and most likely will get unnecessarily exposed to the risk of getting exploited via unfixed software vulnerabilities. Your choice.

= As a non-expert user without good reasons, there is no advantage in continuing to use unsupported and obsolete software.

Last edited by twoion (2014-11-20 18:39:59)


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#3 2014-11-20 18:59:44

hrnn187
Member
Registered: 2014-07-29
Posts: 20

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

may I ask why do you prefer not using systemd?

I switched to it and I barely notice any difference

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#4 2014-11-20 19:12:06

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

^ ditto

As a desktop/laptop user who presumably wants a good stable distro for personal use, why wouldn't you want an init system that performs a lot better in those circumstances? Boot times are much less than half on my machines, if that is important to you, and it is much easier to control start/stop/enable/disable services IMO.

If you aren't a sysadmin who is against systemd for whatever reason, I don't foresee any problem


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#5 2014-11-20 19:21:27

TicTac
#! Junkie
From: Wherever You Go, There You Are
Registered: 2014-10-23
Posts: 256

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

I totally agree with all 3^, systemd won't have a single detrimental effect on most of us and will most likely make things better. I'd by far rather have an updated system than worry needlessly over systemd.


"Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing."   

The Dude.

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#6 2014-11-20 19:57:16

g33zr
#! Die Hard
From: Never Never Land
Registered: 2013-02-19
Posts: 635

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

^Amen, Amen, Amen.... O:)


It's never too late to learn something new! wink

OHCG | LXer

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#7 2014-11-20 20:18:38

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

@TicTac: Well...it could be a con if OP wanted to actually learn how the init works. sysvinit is a bit above 2000 lines of code which one can study and grok in a weekend's time. THe system d system is...beyond 500.000 SLOC now. What I want to say is that while it won't directly affect the 'normal' user, the next generations of acolytes will face significantly increased complexity in the init system area. Which is another facet of the systemd problem, but probably not in the scope of this thread. Please excuse my digression.


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#8 2014-11-20 20:23:40

cloverskull
#! Junkie
Registered: 2013-10-26
Posts: 377

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Agreed with above sentiments. My SID based #! install uses systemd. Not a huge learning curve thus far. It was weird when trying to stop mpd from auto-starting at boot, but other than that, I can say that this thing is rock-solid stable right now and has no issues booting VERY fast.

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#9 2014-11-20 20:29:44

g33zr
#! Die Hard
From: Never Never Land
Registered: 2013-02-19
Posts: 635

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Also running #! Animal (i.e., Sid) and have no majors issues, but only a couple of minor pesky ones: e.g., I'm getting a permissions error when I try to run VB on the laptop--which works fine on the desktop--and the printer doesn't print on the desktop, even though it did before. But is it a systemd or a Sid problem?  hmm


It's never too late to learn something new! wink

OHCG | LXer

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#10 2014-11-21 00:44:57

TicTac
#! Junkie
From: Wherever You Go, There You Are
Registered: 2014-10-23
Posts: 256

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

twoion wrote:

@TicTac: Well...it could be a con if OP wanted to actually learn how the init works. sysvinit is a bit above 2000 lines of code which one can study and grok in a weekend's time. THe system d system is...beyond 500.000 SLOC now. What I want to say is that while it won't directly affect the 'normal' user, the next generations of acolytes will face significantly increased complexity in the init system area. Which is another facet of the systemd problem, but probably not in the scope of this thread. Please excuse my digression.

Not at all twoion, the point you've just made is a very good one and although it will never affect me directly, as you've just said... It will at some point do so in an indirect manner. Thank you, that's something I can get my head around.

The rest of the "sky is falling", "grand conspiracy" or systemd "world domination" theories are just a bunch of guff to me. What you've said makes a lot of sense and gives me a different perspective to think about.

Thanks  smile


"Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing."   

The Dude.

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#11 2014-11-21 01:34:00

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Yeah I aint stayin' on waldorf when support ceases.

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#12 2014-11-21 02:32:55

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

@cloverskull and g33zr:  Maybe things have cleared up, but not long ago I read a number of posts by people who got bit by systemd under Sid.


Linux User #586672
Come and Die -- Kyle Idleman

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#13 2014-11-21 05:01:01

cloverskull
#! Junkie
Registered: 2013-10-26
Posts: 377

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

@KrunchTime - Give it a try on an external hdd or in a VM. Seemingly (to me) most of the major issues have been smoothed over by this point. That being said, I've never been an advocate for change simply for the sake of change, but if the community is trending this way anyway, I'd prefer to find a way to embrace it instead of fighting it.

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#14 2014-11-21 08:10:14

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

@KrunchTime -- I have been running systemd pretty much exclusively for almost a year now and it's the best init system I've used and also the easiest way of managing running services & daemons I've found...

Most of the problems I have seen attributed to systemd were the result of simply not understanding systemctl (RTFM!) and also failings in the scripts that ensure backwards compatibility with sysvinit.

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#15 2014-11-21 14:09:07

g33zr
#! Die Hard
From: Never Never Land
Registered: 2013-02-19
Posts: 635

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

^ Hmmmm...backwards compatibility...that's probably my problem since I tend to be a trial and error back asswards kind of guy.  8o


It's never too late to learn something new! wink

OHCG | LXer

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#16 2014-11-21 21:06:14

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Some voices haved implied wheezy/waldorf becomes insecure when jessie releases.  Not true.  The security update cycle for Debian continues on oldstable for at least one year after each new release (it just ended in June for squeeze and the LTS is extending that for two more years for a total of three).  Assuming a spring release for jessie you can operate a secure wheezy system until the spring of 2016. 

There is currently a dynamic among RHEL users that reminds me of the XP/Vista saga.  A significant number of RHEL 6 users are just avoiding RHEL 7 and staging new RHEL 6 installations because of systemd.  If the same happens with wheezy / jessie, then it seems wheezy will be a prime candidate for LTS, more so than squeeze.  If wheezy maintains a high volume of long term users, that should equate to a significant donor pool for time and funds (better than the anemic response for squeeze).  I will be surprised if wheezy does not go LTS, and venture to predict a greater fracturing of the debian ecosystem if there is resistance to implementing LTS.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#17 2014-11-25 08:03:44

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

@cpoakes:  Really, you've been programming and administering unix since 1976?  I'm envious.  I kind of feel like I've wasted my life as far as a career goes.  I would go into details, but doing so might enable someone to ID me.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months.  Not hearing much from Corenominal kind of concerns me regarding the future of this distro as well.


Linux User #586672
Come and Die -- Kyle Idleman

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#18 2014-11-25 11:38:58

sleeveroller
Member
From: Liverpool, UK
Registered: 2011-02-25
Posts: 40
Website

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

I was originally quite reticent to switch to systemd. But I've upgraded both my #! machines to sid a while ago and haven't had any issues.

This link shows how you can avoid the switch to systemd during an upgrade http://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/ … essie.html , I haven't tried it though.

But my understanding is that Debian is now considering a change so that if you are upgrading an existing installation of  wheezy (waldorf) that runs sysvinit then the init system will not be replaced by systemd automatically.

There's also the systemd-shim package which "emulates the systemd function that are required to run the systemd helpers without using the init service " (https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim).

So it looks like there are plenty of options available if you want to avoid using systemd.

New installations will get the default init system which is of course systemd. So as far as #! is concerned the question I suppose is whether there will be an easy upgrade path from waldorf to janice or whether janice will require a nuke and pave.

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#19 2014-11-25 19:27:41

jdonaghy
The Manatee Whisperer
Registered: 2014-03-12
Posts: 925

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

As much as I like CB, I've never really cared for salad (fine hotel, though). I will definitely be anticipating the next version (even if I don't install it. But I probably will. Just because.)

Last edited by jdonaghy (2014-11-25 19:28:12)


"If you can't control your peanut butter, you can't expect to control your life."
    --Bill Watterson

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#20 2014-11-25 23:41:42

Hy
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2012-02-18
Posts: 112

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

hrnn187 wrote:

may I ask why do you prefer not using systemd?

I switched to it and I barely notice any difference

I just tried a couple of the new Siduction releases live (both natch with Systemd) noticed no difference at all. That said, i don't profess to know anything at all regarding the different ways the two processes affect the running of a system (or even if they DO in live mode), but i have read in a few places that most users will notice no difference at all after the Debian switch-over.

Why is there so much dislike for Systemd?


~ Wait - what? ~

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#21 2014-11-26 06:27:36

Bearded_Blunder
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-04-04
Posts: 262

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Hy wrote:

Why is there so much dislike for Systemd?

It's religious.. and Debian is involved.. just thank your stars it's the default init system it's about and not the default text editor.. because then there'd REALLY be war!


Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed...

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#22 2014-11-26 08:27:05

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

sleeveroller wrote:

There's also the systemd-shim package which "emulates the systemd function that are required to run the systemd helpers without using the init service " (https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim).

That may work in the short term, but I think eventually it will be best to just swallow your pride or whatever and use systemd.  I've come to the conclusion to use it and wait for people more knowledgeable than I to determine if another change needs to be made.

sleeveroller wrote:

New installations will get the default init system which is of course systemd. So as far as #! is concerned the question I suppose is whether there will be an easy upgrade path from waldorf to janice or whether janice will require a nuke and pave.

I think the suggestion as far as CrunchBang goes has always been to nuke and pave.


Linux User #586672
Come and Die -- Kyle Idleman

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#23 2014-12-06 00:45:33

fishesandloaves
Member
Registered: 2014-03-15
Posts: 40

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Bearded_Blunder wrote:

It's religious

smile It does seem this way.

Waldorf has some pretty old components. When Janice comes along as stable, I'm going. I have some apps that have progressed beyond the libraries we have and I now can't use them, and (though it may not be the best reason) I want Netflix without jumping through crazy hoops.

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#24 2014-12-06 06:05:31

th3pun15h3r
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-11-22
Posts: 571

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

switched my desktop to jessie, and I do love having native netflix, spotify linux client works again, dropbox icon indicator still works and steam is in the repos!

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2014-12-18 15:54:44

iann
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2010-09-10
Posts: 720

Re: Further thoughts on staying with Waldorf?

Before everyone gets too excited.  Debian Jessie is going to ship by default with systemd configured, but it is by no means a requirement and can easily be replaced (some desktops may not work with sysvinit).  Debian also ships with Gnome, but Crunchbang doesn't use it.  Now systemd isn't as gross and flabby as Gnome, but we don't yet know what Janice will contain.  I will miss sysvinit, it was the epitomy of what is great about Linux (and Crunchbang).

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