boycott systemd

josephg · 2014-11-11 21:14:26

wondering if unia is a systemd fanboi.. if so, then i have nothing more to say!

pvsage · 2014-11-11 21:33:12

^ Unia is simply acting in his role as moderator to keep this thread on-topic. The Groupon copyright issue has (well, now had, past tense) nothing to do with systemd.

common-sense · 2014-11-11 22:26:33

m1rr0r5h4d35 wrote:

I really don't think age is the issue here. Lack of experience, maybe.
Nope, but oldtimers seem to think that linux should be just for them, and optimized forthe way that they use their computers. But everyone should understand that the way people use computers are changing, and linux has to change with it. Nope, the average user is not 60+ and sitting nicely in front of a desktop pc.
Linux isn't Windows. it never was. It use to be the distro maintainers handed it to you and said "here you go, do with it what you will." This meant you could optimize how you wanted, to meet your own individual needs. The problem with the whippersnappers is they don't want to have to actually do any work to optimize there own system. They seem content to let someone else do that for them. I guess I should just be happy and let Red Hat make all of my decisions for me. Why not? It seems to work for Microsoft and Apple, right?

Yes, valid points. What puzzles me isn't that a lot of xp users finds W8 difficult to use. That's to be expected. But I wouldn't think that linux and openbox users would find it all that difficult. We are used to launching apps with commands and keyboard shortcuts, most of us are somewhat familiar with navigation without a mouse. Gnome for example is a very good example on a DE and a GUI that's very good with keyboard navigation..., and Ubuntu and Unity has a full screen start menu, which in principle works just as Modern UI...

common-sense · 2014-11-11 22:39:01

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

There is a thread on the Debian forums by @fruitofloom (one of the oldtimers) listing non-systemd operating systems:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319
As you can see from his reply, he was not impressed by my suggestion... :8

Nope, but I agree with him. Arch itself is enough of a challenge for most users, and it makes more sense to use another distro if they're unhappy with systemd...

But I still don't see the problem with systemd, besides everything that depends on it.

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-11 23:28:10

Please, I am as guilty as anyone of being angry over this topic, but let's simmer down a bit. For any ruffled feathers I personally may have caused, let me be the first to apologize. This is a very frustrating issue for some of us, and it is made more poignant by the fact that many of us are very passionnant about Linux and Open Source. This isn't about fanboys or bois and it's not about old people having a mid-life crisis because of some new thing has changed the old thing. Anger comes from fear, and I want to tell you what I am afraid of. Let me be clear, I hope I'm dead wrong. I hope this whole issue blows over, but I really think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

First, before someone else tells me to "just install a different Init system" or posts a link to an explination of what Init is, you first need to understand that simply Installing a diferent Init will only work for the time being. However, as more and more applications become dependant on sytemd, these other init systems may continue to boot your system, but there is most certainly reason to assume that none of your userland apps will continue to work, effectively breaking other init systems. Pottering alluded to this when he made the statement "Gentoo, this is your wake-up call". This is precisly the reason OpenBSD has begun work on a compatibility layer for applications that require systemd to function. Please bear in mind that while this is probably the most elegant solution to the problem, it is not without issues of its own. Namely, that Red Hat could potentially choose to constantly break that compatibility layer by changing the way apps interact with systemd. On the Linux side of things, it's seems a little ridiculous to run a compatibility layer for native Linux apps running on a native linux box. It would be a bit like running wine on Windows.

Second, depending on how much of the system gets absorbed and how much software chooses to adopt systemd as a dependency, Red Hat will have more and more power to make unilateral decisions that affect every distro (including this one) that is so dependant upon systemd. This could potential ruin your day even if you are only concerned with your userland experience. As a completely arbitrary example, would you still be singing the systemd praises if suddenly your ability to use openbox as a window manager were suddenly broken, or your ability to install software with apt or pacman. I'm willing to bet you wouldn't. While I will agree that these examples are far fetched, the fact that such a scenario is even possible is quite terrifying.

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion, or at least doesn't cause any more. I hope things don't go this way, I really do. If we want to see Linux continue to prosper, then please everyone,let's focus on the issue at hand. No progress can be made if we continue to fight among each other.

TicTac · 2014-11-11 23:58:15

@m1rr0r5h4d35,

I'm not nearly the inside hobbyist most of you are and quite honestly wasn't clear as to the issue. I truly appreciate your explanation and constructive tone.

Thank you

Sector11 · 2014-11-12 12:31:43

@ m1rr0r5h4d35

KUDOS! Well said.

common-sense · 2014-11-12 14:14:25

@ m1rr0r5h4d35

Valid points. But the solution is to welcome systemd with open arms. There is absolutely no reason why not everyone should use it, besides the principles of course

CSCoder4ever · 2014-11-12 14:26:38

Well I guess as long as steam doesn't become dependent on sysd.

Then I'll get real mad!

twoion · 2014-11-12 14:57:38

systemd-resolved DNS cache poisoning. As I said -- Non-experts duplicate all the functionality and get the basics wrong.

Also, this and some background.

Last edited by twoion (2014-11-12 14:59:13)

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-12 18:03:46

@ TicTac & Sector11 - Thanks for the high praise!

@common-sense -

I cannot fathom your logic. No hostility intended, but I really don't follow your conclusion. So, systemd is bad, let's use systemd?

In my view, the strength of Linux and open source has always stemmed from it's diversity which allows both small and large projects an equal oppertunity to contribute in some way. Replacing that diversity with homoginization seems like a step backwards to me. I want to run #!, or Slackware, so I run #! or Slackware. If I wanted Red Hat, I would have installed and used Red Hat. If you are comfortable with Red Hat dictating what Desktop Environment to use, what apllications you can or cannot run and which package managers you will or will not be allowed to use, then, by all means, choose systemd.

The bigger issue with systemd, is the potential for abuse later down the road. Is Red Hat planning a draconian take over of the entire Linux ecosystem? That remains to be seen. However, I cannot logically conclude any rational reason why systemd needs so much far reaching control to do nothing that is particularly new. If this is Red Hat's eventual goal, I don't think it is something you would see happen overnight. As time passes, and project maintainers become increasingly frustrated with having to basically implament more and more of Red Hat's codebase at the expense of their own hard work, and vision for their individual distros, I think you will begin to see many of the distros that exist today closing up shop, taking their ball, and going home.

Also, just want to mention that jumping ship to BSD will likely not solve any of this, either. As long as Red Hat has the ability to continually break any compatibility layer that the BSD guys come up with, then they have the power to keep Linux software on linux. That is why being POSIX compliant was so important.

Again, I think much of this is moot. I think that now that most of the distros have adopted it, the next step is for Red Hat to start getting more Linux apps dependent on systemd, and after that, if they choose to (and I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't) you might as well just install and run Red Hat, or get out of Linux land.

pvsage · 2014-11-12 21:18:09

m1rr0r5h4d35 wrote:

@common-sense -
I cannot fathom your logic. No hostility intended, but I really don't follow your conclusion. So, systemd is bad, let's use systemd?

If I'm not mistaken, this is called satire.

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-13 00:05:09

My bad. I sometimes have difficulty reading sarcasm out of text. It's a shame, really.

hhh · 2014-11-13 00:41:33

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 … 00296.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2 … 00303.html

Raphael. Dang he's the shiznit.

-edit- And... then there's this. Ackk! Debian Oprah! (I keed!)
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project … 00002.html

R.I.P. Big Bank Hank.

Last edited by hhh (2014-11-13 01:31:28)

KrunchTime · 2014-11-13 03:30:43

m1rr0r5h4d35 wrote:

My bad. I sometimes have difficulty reading sarcasm out of text.

Don't feel bad. I have trouble picking up on it as well.

Oh, and I love your posts here about systemd. I'm in agreement with you. Hopefully, if things get bad Debian will back off or work something else out. No more gnome packages? ]:D

Last edited by KrunchTime (2014-11-13 03:32:37)

hhh · 2014-11-13 03:45:21

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/ … on-systemd

"So support tinkering by any means:" Instant classic.

KrunchTime · 2014-11-13 03:54:34

@hhh: Wow, I didn't know Linus was married and had kids. Hats off to Linus for being okay with his kids just being computer users.

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-13 04:18:49

Shortly before I started using #!, I was planning a distro of my own. Once I started looking into different options for INIT, which was fairly early on, is when I first really encountered systemd (I was really out of the loop for a while). I was so disheartened by, well everything, that I pretty much have tossed that notebook into a corner someplace. Who knows? Maybe someday, maybe never.

I'll get off my soapbox and stop bitching now.

pvsage · 2014-11-13 06:35:18

hhh wrote:

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/ … on-systemd
"So support tinkering by any means:" Instant classic.

I didn't know Linus was capable of having no strong opinions about anything. He must be really mellowing out in his old age. ]:D

common-sense · 2014-11-13 13:54:17

CSCoder4ever wrote:

Well I guess as long as steam doesn't become dependent on sysd.
Then I'll get real mad!

LOL. It doesn't matter to me. I play just one game, and that game doesn't work on Linux

CSCoder4ever · 2014-11-13 13:56:58

Well good for you.

not all of us have common-sense though obviously.

Last edited by CSCoder4ever (2014-11-13 13:58:33)

common-sense · 2014-11-13 14:04:27

m1rr0r5h4d35 wrote:

Shortly before I started using #!, I was planning a distro of my own. Once I started looking into different options for INIT, which was fairly early on, is when I first really encountered systemd (I was really out of the loop for a while). I was so disheartened by, well everything, that I pretty much have tossed that notebook into a corner someplace. Who knows? Maybe someday, maybe never.
I'll get off my soapbox and stop bitching now.

I know where you are coming from. I had the same idea, and systemd has stalled me to. Quite possibly it is a factor for Corenominal too, and it could be one of several factors that explains why there is no Janice release yet?

Last edited by common-sense (2014-11-13 14:04:49)

pvsage · 2014-11-13 16:02:18

Philip Newborough @corenominal wrote:

I'm totally bored shitless with all the recent systemd talk. **yawn**

Amen, brotha papa.

Unia · 2014-11-13 16:28:10

^ Which, in case you're wondering, comes from his Twitter. Not from a direct line to us moderators: we do not know more than you.

damo · 2014-11-13 16:42:37

Unia wrote:

^ Which, in case you're wondering, comes from his Twitter. Not from a direct line to us moderators: we do not know more than you.

...and which may have been sourced from this post a few minutes earlier?

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#301 2014-11-11 21:14:26

Re: boycott systemd

#302 2014-11-11 21:33:12

Re: boycott systemd

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#304 2014-11-11 22:39:01

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