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#1 2014-04-16 17:35:18

el-insignificante
Banned
Registered: 2014-04-16
Posts: 12

The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Moderator note - split from Distro-hoppers Anonymous - cc

intoCB wrote:

On Arch Linux and really enjoying it. Wireless is working. ILoveCandy switched on for pacman. Peachy.

Right, I'm off to the Ubuntu forums to post "You should use Arch" type comments.

]:D Why not do that here instead? It's no fun to do that in Buntuland, because to them, Pacman is only  a horrible arcade-game from the 80's. You will only be perceived as loony-bin and not manage to offend anyone. Besides, Arch sucks. The only reason why someone feel that it's advanced, is because of a f..... up shitty installer. Any distro could put together a really lousy installer, and achieve the same kind of geek-status...

Last edited by chillicampari (2014-04-17 22:24:08)

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2014-04-16 18:13:53

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

^You should use Arch.

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#3 2014-04-16 19:35:46

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Besides, Arch sucks.

I know there's things not to like, mostly political, but Why?

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#4 2014-04-16 20:05:41

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

el-insignificante wrote:

Besides, Arch sucks. The only reason why someone feel that it's advanced, is because of a f..... up shitty installer. Any distro could put together a really lousy installer, and achieve the same kind of geek-status...

There used to be a basic installer before (with the blue background) but not anymore. Now it's all commands so I'm curious to see which installer you're talking about (there's like one script that is used named pacstrap used just to pull the basic packages to have a functional system). In other words, the installer is YOU. And I don't think anyone sucks cuz I love people wink

Arch cannot suck because it's a skull on which you put the flesh or let's "lego talk" lol

Think about a manufacturer of legos (representing the kernel, drivers and applications). Arch Linux is rich fella that always gets the new legos as soon as they are out for sale. Debian gets the legos that were out for a while and that have been used by every lego lovers for a cheaper price

ArchBang/Manjaro/AlphaOS pre-assembled the new legos for you (that you could have assembled yourself with a pure Arch install)
#! pre-assembled the well known legos for you (that you could have assembled yourself with a pure Debian netinstall)

Last edited by tamikan (2014-04-16 20:16:06)


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#5 2014-04-16 23:08:45

sqlpython
#! Die Hard
From: New England
Registered: 2011-11-28
Posts: 931

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Any distro could put together a really lousy installer, and achieve the same kind of geek-status...

  Well sure you are absolutely right in the case of many Arch users. They have that pretentious "I am a Geek" attitude in many cases.
This is what has made the Arch forums less pleasant then it could be. Really an unnecessary un-pleasantry.   
However, Arch is worth that trouble just for pacman which is a really a nice pkg manager.

Be aware and honest with yourself that once you install the Bare Arch once and then have the options of Bridge or FU-Arch which allows choices or No choices and your results will be the same. All depends they way you enjoy installing.

Last edited by sqlpython (2014-04-16 23:09:47)


OHCG #!, Jessie,, Siduction-13.1Slackware 14Bridge,, Sabayon 13.4,

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#6 2014-04-17 00:28:43

el-insignificante
Banned
Registered: 2014-04-16
Posts: 12

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

^As I see it. I have two choices. Arch or the Debian netinstalls. The only thing that makes Arch more geeky, is that it's somewhat difficult to install and setup. I have exactly the same power of a Debian netinstall, but without having to bang my head in the wall to get it installed and configured. In my mind, choosing Arch is just the same as choosing OSX. It's all about vanity, except that it's two different sorts of vanity. Those that use OSX wants to be perceived as cool, trendy, hip, and somewhat posh. While those that install Arch wants to be perceived as geeks.

Additionally, to me it seems like Arch in many cases are making some things difficult, just to make it difficult. And to me, that's not geeky. It's just stupid. ]:D

Perhaps I'll try Arch again. It's been a long time...

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#7 2014-04-17 00:38:06

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Additionally, to me it seems like Arch in many cases are making some things difficult, just to make it difficult.

Can you expand on "many cases" ? I mean compare...

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ar … _Standards to..

https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/

As to geeks, well we're using Debian. Ubunteros and many others perceive us as geeks. Not like that matters.

Last edited by Alad (2014-04-17 00:48:34)

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#8 2014-04-17 00:44:07

porkpiehat
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-10-02
Posts: 1,007

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

"Difficult" is a matter of opinion, and of experience. Personally, I find an Arch install at least as easy to configure as a Debian netinstall, and in my opinion, installing Arch teaches you more about Linux. Once installed, Arch is much easier for me to maintain than a Debian sid netinstall.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I think in this case you are wrong about Arch. But as I have said before, I will not encourage anyone to install Arch. You either get it or you don't. If you prefer Debian, please don't attempt Arch. Vanity has nothing to do with it. "Those that install Arch" don't care how you perceive them (geek or not); they just want to use Arch. If you think that is stupid, please use Debian.

For someone who just joined the #! forum yesterday, you are starting to sound a bit like a troll. Most people here try not to denigrate other distros.

Last edited by porkpiehat (2014-04-17 00:46:54)

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#9 2014-04-17 01:01:57

wagmic1
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2013-11-15
Posts: 119

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

porkpiehat wrote:

Most people here try not to denigrate other distros.

+1


I need to learn how to speak/write English big_smile
latest Firefox on #! handylinux

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#10 2014-04-17 01:16:30

el-insignificante
Banned
Registered: 2014-04-16
Posts: 12

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

porkpiehat wrote:

For someone who just joined the #! forum yesterday, you are starting to sound a bit like a troll. Most people here try not to denigrate other distros.

Nope. They are doing it elsewhere instead. That's what got me going. hmm

Me a troll? O:)  ROFL. I guess you could call me a troll, if that implies that I couldn't care less about what most people try to do.

Anyway, I'm downloading Arch now. As I said, it's been a while. Perhaps it's better. We'll see.  But I just looked at the installation-guide, and it seems that it's still a very unfriendly process. It won't be a issue for me. But if Arch is so wonderful, it seems rather stupid to make it unaccessible to common users by not having a decent installer that takes care of the basic stuff.

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#11 2014-04-17 01:58:31

porkpiehat
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-10-02
Posts: 1,007

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

el-insignificante wrote:

it seems rather stupid to make it unaccessible to common users by not having a decent installer that takes
care of the basic stuff.

You still don't get it, if you insist on using terms like "stupid" "unaccessible" and "decent installer." Please don't use Arch; you will not be happy.

Last edited by porkpiehat (2014-04-17 02:12:19)

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#12 2014-04-17 05:38:05

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Let's not bash Arch. Personally I find it is a little bit too branded with its slick website and fetishisation of concepts like The Arch Way, use of the word "elegant" but all that is subjective. From a functional point of view, it works. I'm running Cinnamon 2.2 on it right now. The only other way I could think to do that is to take a Linux Mint Petra and do an immediate apt-get dist-upgrade with the repos changed to Trusty/Qiana, which might result in a useable system but is recommended nowhere.

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#13 2014-04-17 06:11:01

jeffreyC
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2010-09-02
Posts: 596

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

I have no bone to pick with Arch (the distro), but their forum is not nearly as friendly as this one.


There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

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#14 2014-04-17 06:57:17

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

@el-insignificante:  The whole point of Arch is to have the user "take care of the basic stuff" when installing so that the system is perfectly suited to the user's hardware and needs.  Distros like Debian, Ubuntu, and CrunchBang are designed to be "one size fits most" out of the box; Arch is not.  I think of Debian and Debian-based distros as prêt-à-porter, while Arch is more haute couture.

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#15 2014-04-17 09:39:52

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Lol I like your fashion analogy (I was stuck in Legos  tongue)


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#16 2014-04-17 09:54:19

k0s
Member
From: AlexVa
Registered: 2013-08-31
Posts: 40

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

+1 "take care of the basic stuff"
this statement is inherently the argument. Basic is a very difficult term to define at our level. Basic to me, may not be basic to you. (& vice versa)

#! is a really good vanilla ice cream. It's safe. It's dependable. I trust it. You can add flavors to it, but IT'S quality is the base of the experience. For this reason, a lot of people found a home in this distro. The voltage level of this forum only strengthens my point. Its something I feel safe reading while im trying to relax.     

Id venture to say many users here, found #! durring the first "Arch Rebellion." and the subsequent "Archbang Uprising." Because after it, a lot of us were just looking for something vanilla. I run an ArchServer, Arch is my default work environment, and I loath having to reach out to the community to troubleshoot or interact. I look forward to reading through #! forums in the evening. The pulse of the #! community (despite wanting to lean in and shake the distro to make sure its still breathing) is what FOSS should be all about. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

but concerning this ---v

Alad wrote:

All too easy.

Actually, it's in the Arch wiki but they don't want to explicitely mention dhcpcd. Some people are so annoyed at that they want to start a new Arch community  ]:D

http://www.jeffstory.org/wordpress/?p=1220

......here we go again.

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#17 2014-04-17 11:41:19

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Let me just add there that most of you folks only mention the Arch installation. Is that all you measure a system by? Please people, if you do not understand what makes Arch stand out (it's not the way you install it!) then refrain from posting until you actually know what you are talking about.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#18 2014-04-17 11:54:50

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

The installation is no biggie depending on if you're willing to put the effort and get your hands dirty.

What makes Arch stand out is definitely its simplicity, the fact that you can turn your system into whatever you like, its well documented wiki and awesome package management. And we must not forget to include the AUR  wink

@Unia Feel free to complement what I've just said about what makes Arch stand out (my facts are open-source XD)

Last edited by tamikan (2014-04-17 13:35:19)


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#19 2014-04-17 11:59:33

el-insignificante
Banned
Registered: 2014-04-16
Posts: 12

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

pvsage wrote:

@el-insignificante:  The whole point of Arch is to have the user "take care of the basic stuff" when installing so that the system is perfectly suited to the user's hardware and needs.  Distros like Debian, Ubuntu, and CrunchBang are designed to be "one size fits most" out of the box; Arch is not.  I think of Debian and Debian-based distros as prêt-à-porter, while Arch is more haute couture.

The Debian netinstall isn't designed to be "one size fits most" out of the box. It can be perfectly suited to the user's hardware and needs. Just like Arch. But the Debian netinstalls still offers a decent installer that let's you decide exactly how advanced you want to do it. You can cherry-pick each package, or you can do it easy and install a full DE. This way, the Debian netinstall are perfectly suited for both advanced and not so advanced users. All at the same time, from the same image.

As for Distros. I don't use them. Custom netinstalls only, and it is a custom netinstall you have to compare Arch with. Not the full bloated generic Wheezy release...

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#20 2014-04-17 12:12:40

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Since I did both Arch and Debian netinstall installations, the only 8 differences I've noticed is that with Arch you're:
1-Manually creating partitions (you could have use gparted from any other live linux cd if cfdisk & mkfs are scary)
2-Manually generating your /etc/fstab (it's not that manual you run genfstab command lol)
3-Manually adding a user (so you can wisely decide on which groups you want to be added)
4-Generating your locale (again this is a step often done by users from different countries using a Linux distro that comes in english by default)
5-Manually setting your hostname (just writing it in /etc/hostname & adding it in /etc/hosts)
6-Manually setting up your timezone (to find out /etc/localtime is symbolic link to /usr/share/zoneinfo/YourZone lol ) & picking if you want UTC
7-Manually setting up your network interface (it's fun just at this point because after you'll have a network manager tongue )
8-Manually installing grub (a little grub-install command)

At the end of both you'll find yourself "sudo apt-getting" or "sudo pacman -Sing" all your required packages and do further configurations  lol
Hey this is funny: getting/sing, do you like getting or singing XD

Last edited by tamikan (2014-04-17 12:48:46)


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#21 2014-04-17 12:30:57

el-insignificante
Banned
Registered: 2014-04-16
Posts: 12

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Unia wrote:

Let me just add there that most of you folks only mention the Arch installation. Is that all you measure a system by? Please people, if you do not understand what makes Arch stand out (it's not the way you install it!) then refrain from posting until you actually know what you are talking about.

Nope. But it's a bit off a turnoff when the installation process is made more difficult than it needs to be. Then you start to think that it's done to create the illusion of having to be a geek to install and run it. Because it keeps the ordinary users away from Arch, and to me, that completely kills every other reason to use Arch. Then it suddenly becomes irrelevant what Arch really is about.

Also, In my mind Arch has gone a bit overboard with Systemd, a little to early. It's getting difficult to use Arch with another init daemon. But that's another debate.  smile

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#22 2014-04-17 12:44:12

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

el-insignificante wrote:

But it's a bit off a turnoff when the installation process is made more difficult than it needs to be.

I broke down the 8 differences in my previous post and it's not that difficult, it's just a little learning curve implied so you can have more control and know what's going on in the background.

ratcheer is right btw lol or better yet LFS ]:D

Last edited by tamikan (2014-04-17 12:45:04)


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#23 2014-04-17 12:45:45

el-insignificante
Banned
Registered: 2014-04-16
Posts: 12

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

tamikan wrote:

What makes Arch stand out is definitely its simplicity, the fact that you can turn your system into whatever you like, its well documented wiki and awesome package management  wink

And you feel that you can't do the same with a Debian-netinstall? If that is what makes Arch stand out, then all other distros and releases also stand out. If you haven't discovered the possibilities within Debian yet, then you probably should try to dig a bit deeper into it, instead of installing a distro like #!. Which obviously is a easy and comfortable choice that requires little or no skills at all.

But being in Crunchbang, proclaiming all the great thing about Arch, is a contradiction. Because Crunchbang is the opposite. It's a generic distro which does everything for you, and supports almost anything ootb. In other words, the lazy choice.  ]:D

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#24 2014-04-17 12:51:53

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

el-insignificante wrote:

And you feel that you can't do the same with a Debian-netinstall?

I can do it with a Debian-netinstall. The reason why I stick to Arch is because of personal preference (like cheesecake)
I use #! for work because I end up doing what Philip did when I do a custom Debian netinstallation. It's a time saver but I'm not lazy  wink

I have a feet in both worlds -> Arch for home, #! for work cool

I actually find pacman easier to use than aptitude but that's me  tongue

el-insignificante wrote:

all other distros and releases also stand out

I totally agree with you O:) It's like food (okay now I'm hungry)  :8

Last edited by tamikan (2014-04-17 13:27:04)


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#25 2014-04-17 13:22:28

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: The Hokey Pokey (posts moved from other threads)

Don't forget the debian expert install. lol

But may I add this is pretty far off topic? Especially with the emotional "arguments" presented here.

Last edited by Alad (2014-04-17 13:29:49)

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