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#1 2013-08-19 00:34:16

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

But have a pt I'd like to make nonetheless and so why not reincarnate a couple closed threads ...

In regards to this

Am of course also very sorry to see a good nixer like Joe go ... best wishes fellow nixer. Thing that ticked me off as Joe mentions is that

Since every dang thing's been closed, why not start a new thread to express my opinion 2 jed ... Personally don't think you know of which ye speak. Machinebacon contributed much of hiz time and knowledge freely here. A total of 6,355 friggin posts ... if you @ all realize how much time and effort that represents ? Time and effort he didn't have to bother with ... Just sayin.

Nor why he decided to do his own thing ... I'm truly doubtful you have any idea dood. MB is #! oldguard and a massively generous and knowledgeable nixer. Folks like that taught me a shizzleton and still plenty around these forums. Obviously aren't arrogant children in any respect.

Just pointlessly venting I guess. Though felt like typing out these sentiments/opinions too, shrugs. On a sideline, always been my personal practice to either a: Know what you're talking about. OR b. stfu ... more shrugs.

Vll! + Vl#!! + Vllbbq! smile


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#2 2013-08-19 01:03:42

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

I appreciate and share your opinions.  I also share some responsibility; there were several points where I should have seen the direction that that thread was headed, predicted an impending nosedive, and shut the thread down right away; this would have averted the ensuing butthurt.  Unfortunately, I missed the signs, and the whole community suffered due to my lack of vigilance.  I can only promise that we (the moderation team) are striving to learn what lessons we can from this and will do everything we can to prevent it from happening again.

EDIT:  Technically, I should close down this thread, since it's in response to the closure of another thread.  I think it would be better if we used this as an opportunity to discuss - civilly - what went wrong, what else is going wrong, and how we can improve.  I think the community needs a thread like this right now. neutral

Last edited by pvsage (2013-08-19 01:09:52)

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#3 2013-08-19 01:15:57

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Reminder:

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=21671

People, remember to abide by it in the future.


Res publica non dominetur | Larry the CrunchBang Guy speaks of the pompetous of CrunchBang

CrunchBang Forum moderator

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#4 2013-08-19 01:29:55

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

pvsage wrote:

EDIT:  Technically, I should close down this thread, since it's in response to the closure of another thread.  I think it would be better if we used this as an opportunity to discuss - civilly - what went wrong, what else is going wrong, and how we can improve.  I think the community needs a thread like this right now. neutral

Nothing went wrong. Happens in every society/civilization. Like I said to Icaferio (the mod who PM'ed when I reported the idiotic post in that thread) - One side's too stiff, while the other is too loose. In the early days, the two canceled each other out for the most part, but as the community grew and more opinions got volleyed, the balance sort of broke. Happens everywhere. Tolerance isn't really a human trait.

Could go anywhere from here - either everyone puts on a fake smile and plays Happy Family, or it turns into Syria - but things won't ever be the same regardless. You just have to take it on the chin and continue. Fact of Life: Loss leads to greater loss. Deal with it.

Why do I sound so negative? Well, you told me to be civil.
I could don my positivity-hat and suggest a short-term solution (at least one that might make DJ reconsider), but can't do that without using generous amounts of profanity.

Last edited by gutterslob (2013-08-19 05:21:03)


Point & Squirt

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#5 2013-08-19 01:42:24

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

@lcafiero:  I'm actually thankful to CBizgreat! for opening this thread; I'd been pondering starting a thread myself specifically for the purposes in my EDIT above.

@gutterslob:  I looked back through jed's more recent posts.  As far as I can tell, this came out of left field, though he may have been a Stepford smiler.  At any rate, I'm hesitant to take such drastic action against a community member who could simply have been having a really bad day and chose the wrong place to lash out.

@jed:  If you're still here and are reading this thread, we would love to hear from you.

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#6 2013-08-19 02:09:26

Inodoro Pereyra
#! Die Hard
From: Back in Buenos Aires
Registered: 2013-07-01
Posts: 844

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

pvsage wrote:

... though he may have been a Stepford smiler.

I've known Jed before coming to this forum, on the Ubuntu forums. I have to say, after reading plenty of his posts in there (which are usually nice, funny and informative), I'm truly surprised to read the post linked by the op. That doesn't sound like Jed at all.

That said, I feel I need to state for the record I absolutely disagree with said post.
As a veteran member of more than 50 Internet forums, not only on Linux, but on mechanics, soapmaking, brewing, biodiesel, etc, I have to say this forum is BY FAR one of the friendliest forums I've ever joined, if not THE friendliest one.

@ Pvsage: like I said, I've been a member of plenty of forums. In them, I've met plenty of mods. Nice ones, not so nice ones, and some I'd rather not talk about.
I understand you may be unhappy for not reacting fast enough to stop a thread from degenerating. But you're human, you are entitled to make a mistake eventually.
I've never read that thread, so I don't know how bad it got, but I see everyday the work you and the mod team do around here. As far as I'm concerned, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for.

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#7 2013-08-19 02:47:56

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Pvsage ... said it many times and meant it everytime I like/respect you ... cuz you've more than earned it imo.

Also consider you #! oldguard and learned quite a bit from what you've shared here too. You have nothing to regret imo. A look @ Pvsage's profile says ... 9,673 posts.

It's mind numbing to think of how much time and effort you've/he's spent volunteering time and effort here. Again jmo ... dood you've done more than anyone could/can expect in terms of contributing.

As for jed ... still obviously think you've got it all wrong. The crunch forum and members here despite any differences are still one of the ( more like you can't find better) nix communities anywhere. Imo PERIOD.

Hope JoeDebian reconsiders ... if he ever does. Then don't doubt he'll be welcomed back in #!ville. No nixer luv lost dood ...


Vll! smile

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2013-08-19 02:49:03)


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#8 2013-08-19 03:14:46

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Post count, schmost count.  Just because one has a higher post count than others doesn't necessarily make him more important to a community.  In fact, my high post count is one reason I jumped off the welcome wagon and stopped posting in every introduction thread.  Inodoro Pereyra only has 72 posts at this point; should this mean his opinion is of less value, despite his prior experience in other forums?  Of course not.

In jed's defense, most of his posts prior to that thread have been to assist in help & support threads; this makes him as valuable to the community as anyone else.  If his posting history showed a pattern of trolling, flaming, or otherwise trying to stir up trouble, this would be a different kettle of fish.  I honestly would like to hear his perspective on what went down.

I think some of you are holding back; I feel like I'm surrounded by "Yes Men".  From those two threads that Larry and I closed, there's clearly some dissatisfaction in the ranks...

...maybe this forum could use a periodical kvetch thread, where members can air their grievances without fear of reprisal.

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#9 2013-08-19 03:26:57

falldown
#! Samurai
Registered: 2011-09-01
Posts: 1,727

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

pvsage.. I recently left a distro do to the lack of respect shown towards other distros.

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#10 2013-08-19 03:32:50

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

^ ...and I do what I can to discourage such disrespect.  It's fine to express dislike of one distro or another - everyone has opinions, after all - but simply disliking a distro is no excuse to bash it or people who use it.  (We have many forum members here, for example, that use BBQ, *buntu, Arch, Gentoo, Slackware...etc...a slight against those distros can be seen as a slight against the people who use them.)

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#11 2013-08-19 03:38:26

jmad2011
#! Junkie
From: newton falls ohio
Registered: 2011-12-25
Posts: 344

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

^+1 well said pvsage


Say your prayer's,Eat your vitamins....AND WHAT YOU GONNA DO BROTHA

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#12 2013-08-19 03:40:51

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Am not surprised that you're being fair to a fault Pvsage ..

Am ok with that too ... If jed wishes to express further opinions am totally good with it. However think post count and/or join date does kinda matter myself.

If/when you dig through ( or have spent enough time yourself firsthand) and know the quality of X forum members postings. It's something different .. look back @ my own and 1st hand ... know how much time and effort was involved even if the my own contrib ended up sucking, shrugs.

Must mean you and the Baconator spent literally YEARS contributing quality input to the community. Imo that's pretty damn massive ... anyone who says different is going to draw my ire ... PERIOD.

Shrugs and sighs ... It's past my bedtime atm. Gotta get up early and go to work. Not sayin jed is a bad sort either don't know ( nor honestly even care) He annoyed me with what he said about MB and/or others, shrugs.

big_smile bid ye's goodnight ... Vll!


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#13 2013-08-19 03:44:33

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Thanks Biscuit for the thread, I've just noticed the aforementioned posts and I'm really surprised.

Everybody who joins a forum has an aim, a motivation behind it. When I registered here 4 years ago, the #! forums was a bit of a 'hidden secret' in the Linux world, a super-friendly community in which opinions could be shared without being flamed, and what I loved most was the "distro-agnostic" way of thinking, both by the (regular) community members as well as the moderators, who those days partly even didn't run #! (I'm looking at you, anonymous) -- I found this extremely pleasing. There was no distro-bashing, and no public or hidden attacks between the users. Of course, heated discussions (mostly, or purely, in the off-topic section) are part of a good marriage, and I'm quite sure nobody left crying.

Then some members moved on, also mods (there was this big 'good-bye #!' wave when omns - bless you - and anonymous) left. Priorities in life has changed, everyone goes through this process, sooner or later, and new members are coming, bringing in their valued opinions, their points of view, and also their tone. What has always disturbed me was the decline in thankfulness, between users who expected help & support, got it, and then started discussions about "why things don't work as they should" and that "this works in Ubuntu, why not in Debian" and so on.

We should remember that not only #!, but the whole Linux community (and also part of the development) scene is of hobby nature. We could all be together with our family, or we could have spent the time with people who are not around us anymore - instead we invested time, energy and devotion for something that doesn't really bring anything in return. Also, the moderators here do this job because they have the feeling of responsibility, and they definitely don;t get a bonus or anything from 'above'. It all boils down to give and take, and that giving makes more happy than taking - at least I believe so.

On a more personal note, I'm really sad to see posts like "offiensive, arrogant group around the BBQ" - I don't know where I have ever offended anybody (please check my posting history, if you like, back to 2009) and the reason (on an even more personal note) to create the BBQ was simply the lack of a Debian Sid installation media (not netinstall) plus non-free drivers. Nothing more, nothing less. That then a few people who I personally know (and love) have joined the forums around LinuxBBQ is their free (as in GNU) decision. I'm not into a distrowar, quite the opposite - I have always loved (!) #! and the whole idea behind it (of course I have an opinion on a more technical side, e.g. include a more verbose cb-welcome script, make systemd the default, get rid of gtk3- and xfce-dependencies, etc - but these are things the project lead decides, and I STFU because it's his thing, and stuff works well as it is); for what it's worth, I do not want to be associated with terms like 'arrogant' and 'offensive' - because people who post things like this are no better, IMO. Especially, calling up on Philip to take a large axe etc. is absolutely not the Crunchbang community idea, and no project lead will ever listen to a suggestion like this.

I wish that we all could show a little more love to each other, and give each other more freedom. We are already using a free OS, so why not take this concept of freedom and collaboration into the community?

Friendly greetings from the neighborhood!

Edit: not fixing typos this time. Actually, there is no moderation team to blame when individuals post their opinion or what disturbs them. I believe in a self-cleaning process, like the lotus leaf. Usually it should not even be necessary to consider closing threads, it should never go that far. Just my stupid opinion, for example, when in off-topic an older thread (that still has some relevance, for example, about real life stuff) is getting closed, or a thread about another distro (elementaryOS, for example) just because some people (with or without having much information about the technical or organizational background of a distro) share their thoughts. When we read bobobex' statement, there is nothing like 'don't share your opinion', only drugs and crime and religion and maybe politics are those topics that shall not be discussed, but why not posting opinions about a distro? Those who talk crap will anyway be identified by those who know what they are talking about. Of course it's not necessary to use terms like "troll" or "ass" just because somebody has another opinion than oneself. I think we all share one common interest - definitely - and that is the Linux kernel and the userland around it, so let this be the main motivation for what brings us together, and not the noise around it that makes people leave.

Last edited by machinebacon (2013-08-19 04:39:23)


Sweaty lads picking up the soap | I love the new "Ignore user" button

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#14 2013-08-19 05:16:13

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Negativity is a waste of energy.
In a place where freedom of speech is tolerated, how can you not tolerate intolerant speech?

Quick quizzz 1:
1. Ubuntu sucks
2. Ubuntu doesn't suck

Quick quizzz 2:
1. Unity sucks
2. Unity doesn't suck

Quick quizzz 3:
1. Arch Linux is cool
2. Arch Linux is a waste of time

Quick quizzz 4:
1. Windows is a cancer
2. Windows is an operating system

Put your answers on a self-addressed postcard and then squat by your mailbox until you receive enlightenment (or cramp).

Last edited by intoCB (2013-08-19 05:17:29)

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#15 2013-08-19 05:26:19

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

@intoCB:  Wow, you just blew my mind. yikes

@Everyone who has posted so far:  OMFG, I wasn't expecting such a hug-fest!  I promised no more horsing around, but...[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoqSTQhhpGw[/video]
EDIT:  I'm proud of this community.  That's why I take my duties as moderator seriously, and why I chose to keep this thread open for discussion.

Last edited by pvsage (2013-08-19 05:33:07)

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#16 2013-08-19 05:29:51

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

A clip says more than thousand words:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee925OTFBCA[/video]


Sweaty lads picking up the soap | I love the new "Ignore user" button

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#17 2013-08-19 05:59:00

jed
#! CrunchBanger
From: Detachment 7
Registered: 2012-08-28
Posts: 200
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

OK, here goes...

Recent events in an Off-Topic thread have spiraled out of control due to a post I made.  I'm sorry, it seems I've stirred up a pile of trouble.  My post, first and foremost, was not an attack on the LinuxBBQ distro or Bacon or DebianJoe.  It was a “rant” against NewCityVegas and Unia for blatantly flaming another member, brontosaurusrex.  Yes, I called them out by name.  The “rant” became a post to subtly point out that the mod present at the time, was not only not being a 'mod', but was indeed encouraging the flaming.  The same type of behavior that happened last year was starting all over again, and I was trying to point it out.

Since the post, DebianJoe and I have communicated via email and discussed what transpired.  I apologized to DebianJoe very sincerely and he was kind enough to accept that apology.  I mentioned the “offensive” little group at BBQ, who go out of their way to denigrate and generally be douche-bags to other members.  I should not have mentioned BBQ, and did so only because of what transpired last year, and the fact that it is these same 2 or 3  members who still do their level best to let us all know how “leet” they are, and we're not!  Rather than just call a horse a horse, and name them personally, I lumped them together and unintentionally insulted all of BBQ.  To LinuxBBQ AND Machinebacon my  sincere apologies!  I happen to have 'elitist' and 'mother' installed on my laptop and think of them as great distro's.  I also happen to be a member of the LinuxBBQ community!

Over the course of the last 2 years I have basically just lurked, here and there, in the Linux forums/communities, and finally, a year ago decided to officially become a member at #!.  While a member of that “orange” forum, (and wow do I need to add, no disrespect to the orange) I met and became good friends with a couple of Crunchbanger's, one a mod, one not a mod.  You both know who you are, and I'm blessed and a better person for having gained their friendship.

I'm going to “quote” the entire email below, that I sent to DebianJoe apologizing to him if my statements had truly hurt or aggrieved him.  To the LinuxBBQ guys/gals, and especially to machinebacon please consider this an official apology to you as well.  If DebianJoe agrees, I'll be more than happy to post his response to my email with the one he sent me.  In it, I will say that DebianJoe definitively states that he did not leave here just because of my post!  He does say that it was the post that ended up being the “Straw that broke the camel's back”.  However he says it had been building/brewing for a while.  My post was quite 'tame' and not filled with vulgarities and hate.  A fellow member was being flamed, the mod who was posting at around the same times as this flaming was not doing anything about it and I got mad and “ranted”!  Believe me, next time I'll just keep my trap shut.  Like omns said when agreeing with some of my statements a couple of posts later, I can be naïve about this stuff sometimes!  Sorry...

My email to DebianJoe on 16 Aug. '13 at around 6:50 pm;

Dear DebianJoe,

As the subject line says, I'd like to make a very sincere and humble apology to you personally.  I wish I could do so face to face so you could actually see I'm being truthful when I offer this apology! Please let me do a little explaining.

When I mentioned the "offensive little group" it had nothing to do in any way with LinuxBBQ!  It had everything to do with how 3 or 4 (thus the wording "little group") of the BBQ members behaved over a year ago, and to an extent, how a couple of them still behave.  It was in no way meant as a personal affront to you.  I know the hard work you've done with Bacon, and I have two partitions currently on this laptop I'm typing this from that have Elitist, and Mother installed.

While testing an ISO for a distro I've been working with, (this was Wed. evening the 13th)  I began browsing through some posts on the #! forums.  The more I read the nastier and angrier I felt.  When I got to the Off-Topic thread and began to read some of the things that NewCityVegas and Unia were saying about brontosaurusrex being a fanboy, the anger spilled over, and the result was the post that you saw.  Again, I meant nothing against you personally.  I was letting off steam that had been building for over a year.  I was wrong and I am sorry.  My anger was not at BBQ, just a couple of the users from the LinuxBBQ Forums, and I should not have said anything about BBQ at all.

I frequent the #! Forums quite often though rarely post there anymore.  You, on the other hand, have invested a lot of time and effort helping people and new users there, and it would be a shame for you to walk away from it.  As I mentioned in the last post in the eOS thread, I do some testing for a distro, and know that the amount of work you devs do is literally staggering.  I seriously can't even begin to comprehend the amount of time that goes into building a distro.

I'm an old fashioned old guy (47) that just isn't as tolerable as I used to be.  It truly does bother me to think I caused you pain and grief over what I posted.  I did the very thing that over the past year has made me so angry.  I stooped to the level of a "few" #! members, and insulted and angered a lot of others.  Please accept this apology, and do not deny the #! community the wonderful help and support you've provided due to my ignorant rant!

If you like, I'll publicly post this apology anywhere you like, I just wanted you to see it privately first.  I hope you read to the end, and one more apology for turning the first apology into a small novelette!

Jed Curtis

PS, I think this should count as two posts because of how long it is!

Last edited by jed (2013-08-19 06:12:45)


Proud user of VSDIO: Jedi!  You can download it from here...  I'm on  the web at NixNut.com!

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#18 2013-08-19 06:18:13

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

@jed: Apologies of course accepted, thanks for sharing your thoughts. As you wrote, or should I say Joe wrote: the mass-emigration is just the result of something that had 'developed' over months or years. It's like falling in love with a girl, you invest a lot, buy her flowers and write her love poems, and she just gives you a cold shoulder in return. One day you wake up and you decide for your own sake that you need to change either your behavior or the girl. In most cases, it's the latter.

(By the way, the two members you mention can't really be considered a 'crew' - Unia has just registered a few days ago, because we decided to spin his DragonflyWM as own release so it is very convenient to have him, the developer, right there beside us; and the LasVegas guy has not posted anything/much - that would be the same if two guys from the orange forum post something here at #! and then the whole orange distro is considered as offensive/arrogant.)

Maybe this was missing most in the last months here at the #! - that people can freely express not only their opinions, but also their emotions, without feeling ashamed and without being afraid to be kicked in the ass. So, thank you for making the first post in a long time (amongst the members of this forums) that goes into the right direction.

Edit: the bigger the better wink

Last edited by machinebacon (2013-08-19 06:19:54)


Sweaty lads picking up the soap | I love the new "Ignore user" button

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#19 2013-08-19 09:12:19

ohyran
#! Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 80
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Uy what can I see it seems I joined late in the party.

I was part of that thread but I guess that I was simply pissy towards Gutterslob - although I hope both Gutterslob and anyone else realize that just because I disagree with someone or think they are wrong in a subject that I care about (or for that matter make jokes that I think are inappropriate) doesn't mean I think they are asshats personally.

I was thinking of deleting my comments but it seemed as if Gutterslob could take it and didn't really care to be honest.


>>>I draw pretty pictures for a living!<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>#! Animal<<<<<<<<<<<<

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#20 2013-08-19 10:22:33

dawiba
#! Member
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 91

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

.

Last edited by dawiba (2014-04-04 17:08:01)

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#21 2013-08-19 10:35:13

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

ohyran wrote:

but it seemed as if Gutterslob could take it and didn't really care to be honest.

Yup, if it's targeted at me alone, I don't care. You're all internet people, hence only in my head, hence non-existent. =P
I do get a tad upset when one non-existent virtual person starts bickering with another non-existent virtual person, since it might go "viral" and affect other non-existent virtual people who aren't involved. Also, non-existent people bickering still takes up real virtual space on the internet. I'm rather particular about the proper use of space. Feng Shui and all that jazz.

Edit:
I suppose part of the reason why I was misunderstood is due to my refusal to use the forum's smileys/emoticons. Sorry, but I swore I'd never use those disgusting yellow things. It was fine back when they were monochrome, but now they (cool BSD-daemon and monkeyface being the only exemptions) just stick out like dandruff on a black sleeve. Ick!!

Last edited by gutterslob (2013-08-19 11:37:02)


Point & Squirt

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#22 2013-08-19 12:18:30

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

I had this thread pointed out to me by someone so thought I'd pop in and say-

nice work, well done big_smile

It's good to see the old CrunchBang ways coming through in this disucssion (well I see it anyway).

Keep up the great work all. I look forward to hearing down the track that all is well again smile

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#23 2013-08-19 12:43:11

dkeg
#! Die Hard
From: Mid-Atlantic Grill
Registered: 2011-12-05
Posts: 727

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Vey wise words from MB

some very well written posts here.  My take away and belief is this, the sole purpose of us being here is we are all hobbyists and feel a sense of community within the linux frontier.  As we all gain knowledge, we want to give back.  Everyone finds the forum(s) that they feel comfortable with, and generally due to it being a distro they currently use.  A lot of times things change, distro hopping and possibly finding a new primary love.  With that, and based on the community, one could remain, independent of the distro they use.  As someone's signature states, come for the distro, stay for the community.   It could be cb, bbq, ubuntu, arch, who really cares, seriously.  We are here purely for giving back, learning more, conversing and geeking out with similar minded folks. 

don't use cb anymore, don't plan too.  But I have a stake here, and try to come over here and there to help where I can, or just post scrots, but nonetheless, the point is its about community more than the distro. 

MB brought up a good point.  There definitely has been a level of user base lately there is a lack of graciousness when questions are asked and even answered.  There tend to be a level of expectation that the rest of the user base is here to serve them at a moment's notice.  To reiterate, we have real lives outside, and do this solely as a hobby, with a sense of responsibility, community, and contribution.   

I'm just gonna throw this out there, but cb also lost some serious meat, and they deserve the utmost respect.  So i'm pointing them out. 

ivanovnegro
pidsley

they also gave a farewell, and I am not hearing any mention of the significance of their loss.  I am acknowledging that here.  They may not care, it has just gotten to that point, but I do. 

respect

Last edited by dkeg (2013-08-19 12:49:45)


grill it | the rocky path may just be the best path

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#24 2013-08-19 13:21:57

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Community! Freedom! Respect! Group h*gs!

Hooray for #! Forums and all our members past, present, and future. smile


/hugged

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2013-08-19 15:16:51

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Just a rant folks ... mostly ignore. :)

Larry said he'd leave the light on, and since a link here was sent to me...I guess I should leave a few thoughts.

As personal as this may seem, as I said to Jed (who's apology I have accepted, of course), this last post was just the final moment where I said to myself, "I'm tired of this."  Allow me to share a bit of the "why."

When I really got into Linux, I had come across a little document called The Debian New Maintainer's Guide.  I read it, and said to myself, "I want to be a part of this."  At the time I had just gotten started at a technology job, I was young and idealistic and wanted to see some serious change in the world.  I installed GNU / Linux in a version called "Sarge" and proceeded to be highly confused for a long time.  {dir} didn't do what I expected for it to do.  I couldn't figure out where the C: drive was.  I was totally lost for months.  Still, I read a book on Linux until I figured out how to use man pages.  After that, I'd break things in horrible manners, and would generally fall back on the "reinstall it" method to put things back.  I did this for a long time.  During this time, I'd just come out of college for studying C++/J++ primarily.  I was appalled to find that this Linux thing used "batch-like" files for most things, that it used the terminal more than GUI's to get things done, that it seemed to be years behind the Big 2 operating systems.  I was obsessed, though, so I kept at it.  I got better through trial and error, just like everyone else.  I eventually fell in love with just how it all worked in small, divisible sections that could be endlessly manipulated.

Over time, things moved forward.  People were coming together to make things better.  I was certainly in for a surprise once I actually started to work on package maintenance, though.  The people were idealistic, but totally chaotic in lots of ways.  The fact that things actually got done became more surprising than anything, because everyone just picked apart everyone else's work.  It certainly wasn't and isn't a happy little commune like I'd pictured in my mind.  Developers, in particular, were terse unto rudeness quite often.  Until I started trying it myself, I didn't understand why.

Things still came together, though.  One of the great side-effects of the GPL license is an inherent "survival of the fittest" as far as development is concerned.  For every project that exists, I can point to multiple projects that have been crushed under the great wheel of improvement.  Projects that someone, somewhere, gave their hearts to.  Something that they loved.  The thing that I have always found amazing, though, is that most people will simply pick up the pieces and merge what they've learned with what someone else is working on right now.  It's not software that we're all running, but the countless hours of the people who went into making every single line of code in them.

So, I guess that even in this wonderful "hugs" thread, I can point out things that I still find to be reflected in not just the literal of what has been said, but the PEOPLE behind it.  As it was pointed out earlier, Unia called Bronto a "fanboy", and if you think about it for a second...this isn't hard to understand.  To get the big picture, you have to know something about Unia.  I'll tell you what little I know, and how I have come to understand it.  First of all, Unia is an Archer...and the way of doing things in Arch is different than on Debian Stable, and thus the community is a bit different.  Secondly, Unia has chosen a very difficult path to walk.  Check his github.  He's a young C-programmer who has released a WM.  One of the joys of writing software is that you almost NEVER get a "thank you" from the people that you give your work to.  If 98% of it works, you'll get multiple notifications about the 2% that doesn't.  You get people complaining that you didn't do it perfectly, although you've spent months working on the parts that seem to be giving trouble and cannot figure out why they don't work as you'd expected.  While lots of people are playing with their color-schemes, you're looking at how your pointers are working...or not working.  The final point, is that you'll always be compared with everyone else who's ever done it before.  "But dwm does it!!!!"  Sure, but it's not new.  It's gone through multiple improvements and corrections, through multiple people.

So, when someone says, "I don't like this because this piece of software I didn't write, or have anything to do with other than finalizing the user-space of...thus the new stuff sucks!" it hits at a personal level.  What he was saying, albeit harsh, was "Give new free stuff a chance."  This is the core of it all.

Then there's Pidsley and Ivan.  Between the two of them, they've devoted countless hours taking one-on-one sessions to helping every person with something that they didn't make at all.  They aren't responsible for the problems that people are having.  On the other hand, they sacrificed their personal time to help people with problems that they personally were not currently having.  I know for a fact that Pidsley kept a Crunchbang install for the sole purpose of recreating OTHER people's issues, so that he could better help them out.  He has always done this for free.  Ivan as well.  They have shared time and hours to trying to help people that 25% of the time don't understand what they're saying, 25% of the time argue with them, 25% of the time demand that they be helped because of something that they have broken, and probably a good 15% of the remainder of the time...helping people who won't ever leave a simple "Thank you for taking time out of your day to walk me through my problem."

You see, Crunchbang is a nice distro.  It's a wonderful introduction to how configuration works.  It doesn't attempt to obscure how it is set up to the user.  This is a step that I think will help to ease people into GNU / Linux in general without dumping them into the harsh environment that is Unix without at least providing some level of adaptation.  On the other hand, it's just a distrolet.  It's just Debian Stable with OpenBox and Tint2.  I can point to literally hundreds of other distos or distrolets that do something better than Crunchbang does, or comes up short to what Crunchbang does.  In the end, the software will either survive, or it won't.  It's the people who take their time to help others to overcome barriers that they have most likely covered themselves that will determine the success or failure of any project.

I have only been here to share things that I think are neat, and help out where I can.  I never expected a personal thank you card from anyone.  The only time I've ever spoken to Phillip was due to another project that I was working on...and if I recall correctly, he was on the cc list for.  Now, I could make the argument that due to what packages are included, that I have partial ownership in the software.  That isn't why I came here, though.  I came here to try to explain why there's no need to break off into camps and fight among ourselves about who's spin of Debian is the "best" which is highly subjective anyhow.  I just wanted to share some things that I thought were worth knowing.  I never did help out many people via the help-and-support section, as that's not my cup of tea.  I don't possess the patience for it.

The decision to move on is due to a combination of the lack of understanding about what was really going on here, that a project that I do feel has huge potential could use me far more than a stable distro, that I like the front-lines of development far more than feeling like I'm over-explaining a simple programming language, and that I just don't feel that I have much left to offer here.

So, feel free to leave the door open.  Perhaps one day I'll get tired of arguing with other devs about why I hate gtk-3 and the qt toolkits, why you should use 4-space indents, and why lines in python shouldn't exceed 79 characters.  For now, though, I'm tired of giving my heart and soul to a project where I don't feel that the users really are understanding how the big picture works.

So if I can leave you with one thing, let it be this:

The next time someone takes time out of their day to help you fix something, say thanks.  If they teach you how to learn on your own, then give them a huge "Thank you for caring about me enough to teach me how to one day know what you know."

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