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#26 2013-04-25 18:52:02

brontosaurusrex
#! Red Menace
Registered: 2012-06-15
Posts: 1,643

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

from what I read the main selling point of stable is that its the 1st one to get security patches?

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#27 2013-04-25 19:27:44

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

The main selling point of Debian is stated as the first sentence at it's website:

Debian is a free operating system

and, of course, the social contract:
http://www.debian.org/social_contract
free being explained here:
http://www.debian.org/intro/free
The community aspect is of high importance too (first site, click on "read more"):

The Debian Project is an association of individuals who have made common cause to create a free operating system.

If you meant why one should choose stable over testing or unstable, then it is explained here:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debia … ng.en.html
In other words: It is not the first one to get security updates, but it is the one which _only gets security updates (and hence is considered to be stable). Sid doesn't get security updates in the same sense though:
http://wooledge.org/~greg/sidfaq.html#15

Last edited by nadir (2013-04-25 19:31:21)

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#28 2013-04-25 21:02:21

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

nadir wrote:

The main selling point of Debian is stated as the first sentence at it's website:

Debian is a free operating system

a 'selling point' implies uniqueness. debian isn't the only one free operating system.

btw what do you all mean by 'old' hardware? mine is 4-5 years old and everything works just fine. most 7-8 year old cpus are already 64-bit. if by old you mean vintage aka really really really old and used for the sake of it (hobby, sentiment, etc), then it's your problem, not today's software suppliers.

Last edited by zalew (2013-04-25 21:07:33)

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#29 2013-04-25 21:30:42

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

I've also heard that Debian is releasing a new vehicle to take the place of the older horse-and-buggy.  It's faster, sleeker, and smoother.
Debian Wheezy.

Can't say that I'm really excited about them releasing something that's already significantly outdated.

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#30 2013-04-25 21:35:35

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

^ only comes in black  tongue

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#31 2013-04-25 22:04:40

douglas
#! CrunchBanger
From: Dallas, Texas
Registered: 2011-01-09
Posts: 230

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

scket wrote:
douglas wrote:
Forthy wrote:

Presuming you meant 'run', this is my philosophy too.

If you actually did mean 'rub', I'm going to subtly distance myself from your post...

tongue

big_smile Ha!  I meant 'run'

Try Jessie?

Or Janice?

wink

Run Janice, not rub Jessie.  I am all screwed up!  Jessie is the Debian name and Janice is the #! name... correct?

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#32 2013-04-25 22:05:55

VDP76
#! Bean Roaster
Registered: 2012-04-12
Posts: 840

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

wuxmedia wrote:

^ only comes in black  tongue

but you have a choice between i686 or x86_64 engines...  tongue


#!#!#! Forum etiquette #!#!#!
Are you a new member!? Have you introduced yourself?!
CLI basics | LVM | smxi | chrooting | multiarch

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#33 2013-04-25 22:35:03

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

ew wrote:

being stable but unusable isn`t a good selling point

In my humble opinion, stable == usable on the greatest range of hardware

in regards to my pc/laptop I have to point out that it`s the very most common hardware out there.... My pc is the new industry default. Ivybrigde I5 and HD4000

Can't say that I've met an Ivybridge PC in person.  When I bought my current desktop - just about a year ago - the Intel processors that were competing against the AMD Phenom I eventually settled on were the lower-spec i3s.  In my experience, most general-purpose PC users are going to look at "the bottom line" when making a PC purchase.

But perhaps I shouldn`t rant at the 2 year cycle, but rather at the fact that Debian fails to implement support for new common hardware in Debian Stable. In my mind Debian is a full 2 years behind where they should be.

This I consider a valid point of view.  Have you shared these concerns with the Debian development team?

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#34 2013-04-25 23:26:04

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

^" The "if" shows that you don't fully understand how Debian releases. It won't come with a newer kernel. Ther is no if. It is in the freeze. It also doesn't matter if you or i  or anyone considers the actual testing to be stable enough for us. It will be released when the release critical bugs are removed (" The 'frozen testing' with no rc-bugs will be released as the new stable version.")."

==>I know that, but I wasn`t completely sure which kernel it had reached before the freeze, since I haven`t used either stable or testing in a long time. I`m currently using Siduction kernel 3.8.8 on all my Debian installs. 3.2 kernels are completely unusable for me on my new pc`s. Squeeze and Sid are both fine, but not Wheezy. The 3.2 kernels are very bad kernels indeed. At least for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge, and that`s what almost every computer comes with these days:)


ew wrote:
being stable but unusable isn`t a good selling point
"To you it isn't, but to others it is."

==>Really? Then you either are a very good seller, or have stupid "buyers". Who wants a release that they can not use? I`m not talking about small issues and bugs here, or trivial issues like not being able to use the latest apps. I`m talking about completely unusable...

### Finally, it`s just to start reading about the issues with kernel 3.2.x on Ivy Bridge and HD4000, because if you intend to use the next Debian Stable on any such configuration you will need this knowledge, but the answer in most cases, is to install a newer kernel...

Wheezy and Ivy Bridge(Link)

Last edited by ew (2013-04-25 23:47:44)


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#35 2013-04-25 23:50:00

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

I'm with ew on this one.  If you take a second to go through the "Waldorf support" sections and pay attention, you'll see the Good Doctor xaos52 referring more than just one or two people towards upgrading the Waldorf kernel to take care of multiple hardware related issues.  There's a reason for this.  There are many systems (we're not talking exotic hardware...I mean like economy laptops) that are little more than oddly shaped paperweights with the standard Wheezy release.  I used 2.6.32 almost exclusively until I could jump in at 3.7.+ to avoid having to make pretty major modifications just to make certain machines run. 

For servers, sure, Debian stable is great.  For a desktop user it will always be behind the curve.  It's the nature of what they do.  If you notice, backporting is extremely common within the Debian world because it is necessary if you don't want to run software from 1997.  Now, it really doesn't take that much work to correct some of the issues.  For instance, it only takes some minor kernel boot parameter manipulation, and writing two separate bash scripts to be executed at different times to make the box that I use for testing on Waldorf work, but considering that the computer simply goes blank after boot unless these are done make it nothing short of turning water into wine for a new nixer.  This is a major issue for someone trying out GNU/Linux for the first time.  The fact that Debian has decided to release their "stable" release on a base that I can name specific hardware that WILL NOT work on it is disheartening.

Last edited by DebianJoe (2013-04-25 23:51:16)

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#36 2013-04-26 08:59:18

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

ew wrote:

==>Really? Then you either are a very good seller, or have stupid "buyers". Who wants a release that they can not use?

Well I am not a seller or a buyer for starters. I assumed you were exaggerating when you said Debian Stable is "unusable", because of course there are millions of systems using it.

But the focus of your disappointment is intel graphics right? This is an issue with the kernel and/or graphics driver devs releasing something that is buggy, which is occasionally unavoidable.

So what do a downstream group (ie Debian) do to fix this? Do they ship 3.2 that they have been working/testing on as their base, or do cross their fingers and chuck in kernel 3.7 at the last minute and hope for the best.

What you don't understand is that a newer kernel might solve these problems, but will introduce new problems of its own, and unlike 3.2 you won't know what these issue are until end users complain about them.

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#37 2013-04-26 12:34:39

scket
#! CrunchBanger
From: West Midlands
Registered: 2009-01-16
Posts: 221

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

douglas wrote:
scket wrote:
douglas wrote:

big_smile Ha!  I meant 'run'

Try Jessie?

Or Janice?

wink

Run Janice, not rub Jessie.  I am all screwed up!  Jessie is the Debian name and Janice is the #! name... correct?

Yes:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=256974

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#38 2013-04-26 12:46:16

douglas
#! CrunchBanger
From: Dallas, Texas
Registered: 2011-01-09
Posts: 230

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

^Thanks

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#39 2013-04-26 13:43:47

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

OK, so ew and DebianJoe have RSVP'd saying they won't be at the party.  "Okey-dokey-lokey! A party is still a party" even if everyone invited can't attend. wink

@cchhrriiss121212:  My point exactly.  As I've stated before, the goal of Debian Stable is to be usable - and reliable - on the greatest amount of serviceable hardware in use, and at this point, the "latest and greatest" hardware amounts to a small percentage of what's in use, especially since Moore's Law started to hit its practical limit with currently available technology the past couple years.

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#40 2013-04-26 17:06:54

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

"OK, so ew and DebianJoe have RSVP'd saying they won't be at the party.  "Okey-dokey-lokey! A party is still a party" even if everyone invited can't attend."

At least all sid and testing users will be at the party, as for them the end of the freeze means that new packages-versions roll in. For maintainers it means that their new packages get into sid again (and then, after 10 days, into testing).
For my stable system  (aka server) it means that i can install ownclowd from the repos (and that scuttle will be broken, urgh).



As far i can tell: a new kernel hits the stable backports pretty soon after end of freeze/release (within days or weeks at maximum). 
And the kernel is of the few packages you can easily install from any repo when running stable (so one could just install another kernel from experimental). I really don't understand all the trouble. A rose is only a rose, and a kernel is only a kernel.
If one can't install at all (even no CLI system) than i gave the link to the solution above).
Though in general the best solution is (imho) what most people , in this thread, seem to do anyway (if one is in sns):
use a distribution based on Debian.


only comes in black

Not exactly:
    amd64
    armel
    kfreebsd-i386
    kfreebsd-amd64
    i386
    ia64
    mips
    mipsel
    powerpc
    sparc
Plus the hurd, unofficial.  Plus testing and  sid (both with all of the architectures as well).


a 'selling point' implies uniqueness. debian isn't the only one free operating system.

As far i know none of the bigger distributions offers that out of box . And "to offer that" and to make it the raison d'etre are two different things.
Many people don't like that about Debian. I like it and would prefer if contrib and non-free repo's would be removed all together (instead of offering to add  them after installation or as an option during the expert-installation method).

Last edited by nadir (2013-04-26 17:14:47)

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#41 2013-04-26 20:17:43

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

And the kernel is of the few packages you can easily install from any repo when running stable (so one could just install another kernel from experimental). I really don't understand all the trouble. A rose is only a rose, and a kernel is only a kernel.

Have we said it`s a big problem for us. I currently use siduction kernel 3.8.8 on all my Debian installs, and I will always find my way regardless. But it`s a big issue for newbies that simply throws in the towel when they install something that doesn`t even provide them with a display,  or a display and system that constantly freezes withou being able to drop to tty or doing anything else than force the pc off. For a newbie that will be the end of it.

nadir wrote:

Many people don't like that about Debian. I like it and would prefer if contrib and non-free repo's would be removed all together (instead of offering to add  them after installation or as an option during the expert-installation method).

Yes, you probably would prefer that because you have a pc with hardware that doesn`t need non-free firmware in order to run linux. But then you are shutting out at least 75% of the potential users...

Last edited by ew (2013-04-26 20:23:22)


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#42 2013-04-26 20:25:16

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

I wrote this:

If one is a newbie to Linux _and one isn't willing to use a searchengine to find the testing iso _and one isn't willing to ask in a forum or a mailing list or an IRC channel _and one wants to use the newest hardware -then Debian simply isn't the right distribution.

Someone who wants to use Debian should at least be able to make a thread i a forum.

Yes, you probably would prefer that because you have a pc with hardware that doesn`t need non-free firmware in order to run linux.

As far i know i got 8 PCs and 1 ppc.

Last edited by nadir (2013-04-26 20:29:36)

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#43 2013-04-26 20:37:42

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

nadir wrote:

I wrote this:

If one is a newbie to Linux _and one isn't willing to use a searchengine to find the testing iso _and one isn't willing to ask in a forum or a mailing list or an IRC channel _and one wants to use the newest hardware -then Debian simply isn't the right distribution.

Someone who wants to use Debian should at least be able to make a thread i a forum.

They will not do that, if the initial install fails to provide them with a bootable system. There is two things that has to work for a newbie. Number 1. The Display... Number 2. Wifi... If those two fails in their first interaction with linux, then most will run away from it.

A newbie wouldn`t use a search engine to search for a testing iso, simply because a newbie doesn`t know that something like that exists..., nor if that could help with the issues he have. Heck, I`ve tried every kernel between 3.4.5 to kernel 3.8.8, and found that I can use 3.4.5 to 3.6.8 OOTB, and that I can use every kernel above, if I edit the kernel parameters and do a backlight setting. So I have completely control of what I need to do in order to make each and every kernel work for me. But how many people would put in an effort like that? I guess it`s very few...


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#44 2013-04-26 20:53:09

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

Then Debian is simply not the right distro for them.

So in the end, I would recommend to choose Debian over something else if you
know what you want, and Debian has what you want to offer. It’s certainly not a
beginner’s system, unless starting your Linux experience with Debian is what you
want.

M. Krafft.
http://www.geek.com/xyzcomputing/interv … em-571367/


From "The Debian system" by M.Krafft:

You should run Debian if:
- You are an experienced user and know what you want.
- You want to efficiently manage an OS for a controlled environment with a finite set of requirements.
- You prefer stability to the bleeding edge.
- You need a secure system rather than one with the latest bells and whistles.
- You want to get down to the core of Linux.
- You have many friends running Debian.
- You are willing to invest some time and work now for later ease of maintenance.
- You are a perfectionist and a purist.
- You are socially sensitive with respect to freedom of software.
- You are curious to know about Debian, and do not mind climbing the Debian learning curve.
- You are curious about the Debian community, and what joins thousands of people to a common goal.
- You want to use Debian for whatever reason, and you are self-confident about that desire.

You should probably choose something else if:
- You are new to Unix.
- You need to use top-of-the-line hardware.
- You want to run Debian because "it is cool."
- You want a working system and are unwilling to figure out how it works.
(If you are looking for something that "just works," try one of the Debian derivatives.)

I don't choose my distro by checking if it is good for a newbie, or anyone else, but if it is good for me.

Last edited by nadir (2013-04-26 20:56:33)

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#45 2013-04-26 21:09:50

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

@nadir, re: Ubuntu based distros switching to Debian, #! did the same.

I'm an above-average level end user, but strictly an end user none the less. My opinions, addressed to those dissatisfied with stable...

In my mind, the hardware issue debate gets superceded by the whole "Year of Linux" conundrum... that Linux can never compete with MS and Apple because users have to install the OS themselves, and that means work. And hardware issues. Those saying that Debian isn't compatible with their shiny new hardware aren't considering the majority of end users worldwide, where dated hardware is the norm. It seems to me that Debian does a good job of providing ISOs that install on most PCs that contain practical, useable software, even if it isn't the latest and greatest. I'd also say that if you 're aware that kernel upgrades can fix hardware issues, you can choose an OS that suits your needs. Debian seems to be one of the least competitive distros out there; they do what they do the way they do it and say "it's ready when it's ready, use at your own risk, our OS is freaking stable, use another distro if you don't like ours or us."

And what software is the average user using that isn't available in squeeze? Functional browsers, video players, music players with gapless playback, bittorrent clients, network managers, etc...

Most people using Linux know that using Linux means work, since most had to install the OS themselves. Anyone who tackles a new project logically knows that one of the first steps involved is research. If you're doing research on Debian, then...
http://www.debian.org/
http://www.debian.org/intro/about
http://www.debian.org/intro/about#hardware

Read that last link. Are you arguing that those claims are lies? Then, please, email Debian. And to ew, testing and unstable are hidden? Wikipedia explains the Debian release cycle, and links to unstable and testing are given in the Debian CD FAQ...
http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#unstable-images

Rock on Debian, the most flexible and easiest to maintain OS in the world.

Last edited by hhh (2013-04-26 21:12:06)


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#46 2013-04-26 22:08:46

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

ew wrote:

^" The "if" shows that you don't fully understand how Debian releases. It won't come with a newer kernel. Ther is no if. It is in the freeze. It also doesn't matter if you or i  or anyone considers the actual testing to be stable enough for us. It will be released when the release critical bugs are removed (" The 'frozen testing' with no rc-bugs will be released as the new stable version.")."

==>I know that, but I wasn`t completely sure which kernel it had reached before the freeze, since I haven`t used either stable or testing in a long time. I`m currently using Siduction kernel 3.8.8 on all my Debian installs. 3.2 kernels are completely unusable for me on my new pc`s. Squeeze and Sid are both fine, but not Wheezy. The 3.2 kernels are very bad kernels indeed. At least for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge, and that`s what almost every computer comes with these days:)
]

It looks a lot like all three: stable, testing and unstable use a 3.2 kernel.
In that case your inability to use wheezy is not related to the kernel (as long you say both squeeze and sid work fine). 
What version get's used in which release can be checked here:
http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages

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#47 2013-04-26 23:29:29

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

nadir wrote:
ew wrote:

^" The "if" shows that you don't fully understand how Debian releases. It won't come with a newer kernel. Ther is no if. It is in the freeze. It also doesn't matter if you or i  or anyone considers the actual testing to be stable enough for us. It will be released when the release critical bugs are removed (" The 'frozen testing' with no rc-bugs will be released as the new stable version.")."

==>I know that, but I wasn`t completely sure which kernel it had reached before the freeze, since I haven`t used either stable or testing in a long time. I`m currently using Siduction kernel 3.8.8 on all my Debian installs. 3.2 kernels are completely unusable for me on my new pc`s. Squeeze and Sid are both fine, but not Wheezy. The 3.2 kernels are very bad kernels indeed. At least for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge, and that`s what almost every computer comes with these days:)
]

It looks a lot like all three: stable, testing and unstable use a 3.2 kernel.
In that case your inability to use wheezy is not related to the kernel (as long you say both squeeze and sid work fine). 
What version get's used in which release can be checked here:
http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages

I know which versions gets used. But it`s not as easy as you suggest.  For example, every kernel from 3.4.5 to 3.6.8 works out of the box, but suddenly, in kernel 3.7 this happens: Link

Therefore, it`s quite possible that squeeze and sid work, while wheezy doesn`t. The only kernels I can`t use, is the 3.2 kernels that currently are in Wheezy. Haven`t tested 3.3 kernels, but previous to 3.2 kernels I`m fine, and from 3.4 kernels and up.... Don`t get caught up in the issue for 3.7 kernels, because that`s a different issue than the issue with the 3.2 kernels. Some issues gets solved while others are created, and I`m fine with that. I fix them as I go forward, and I`ve done it so many times that I can do it blindfolded for every new install.

So personally I don`t have a single issue with Debian, simply because I use Sid, and I love Debian just as much as you. But I love Sid, not Wheezy. Easy as that.

I still use Wheezy on a 10 year old Toshiba, and a old T40. There it works like a charm:) But the mainstream population doesn`t have old laptops. They change laptops when the battery is starting to fade and/or the hdd crashes. After a couple of years. At least in my part of the world. We are the land of milk and honey, and a laptop is a very small investement for most people, so it`s only geeks like me that mess around with 8-10 year old hardware. Laptops that are a 3-4 years old, you get for 20$. In my country that`s about the value of one pint of beer. No need for anyone in my country to use anything older than that, except for the fun of it:)

The server bit and the stability that you seem very concerned with, isn`t that interesting to me. I`m in it for the fun of it, not because I need linux for anything special. Actually, that`s not true, because my next project is to build a server for filesharing, streaming and backups on my network, but I`m going to use FreeNAS...

But to sum it up, I agree to disagree, and that`s fine. Where everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking at all. I guess I can be a bit exited about the lift of the freeze anyway. But not because Wheezy or Waldorf becomes stable, because most users have used them for a very long time. I would be surprised if most Crunchbangers are using Statler and Squeeze. If I were to guess, then probably 20%  is still on Statler, 50% on Waldorf, and 30% has surpassed both releases by using Sid,Siduction or Liquorix kernels.

I could be dead wrong, but this is the impression I get by reading around the forum.

Last edited by ew (2013-04-26 23:32:44)


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#48 2013-04-26 23:54:55

mbemboom
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2013-03-30
Posts: 104

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

ew wrote:

But the mainstream population doesn`t have old laptops. They change laptops when the battery is starting to fade and/or the hdd crashes. After a couple of years. At least in my part of the world. We are the land of milk and honey, and a laptop is a very small investement for most people, so it`s only geeks like me that mess around with 8-10 year old hardware. Laptops that are a 3-4 years old, you get for 20$. In my country that`s about the value of one pint of beer. No need for anyone in my country to use anything older than that, except for the fun of it:).

My response to this doesn't have anything to do with Debian but I believe that thinking like this is one of many things leading mankind to disaster.  Just because something is inexpensive doesn't mean we should go and buy the latest one to come out if we already have one that functions perfectly.  The natural resources and human suffering involved in it's production and the waste created by disposing of the old one are both things that should be considered.

Last edited by mbemboom (2013-04-27 00:18:56)


"Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. "  - The Dude

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#49 2013-04-27 00:03:02

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

I know which versions gets used.

Sorry, but obviously you don't.
None of these kernels is to be found in Debian repos:

For example, every kernel from 3.4.5 to 3.6.8 works out of the box, but suddenly, in kernel 3.7 this happens: Link

They are all 3.2, the one in experimental is 3.8.

The only kernels I can`t use, is the 3.2 kernels that currently are in Wheezy.

and in stable and in unstable.

Agreeing to disagree is fine for me. But you speak of kernel versions which are not to be found in Debian.
If they are, then give a link to them.


Laptops that are a 3-4 years old, you get for 20$.

Send me a few of them. Here you will have to pay around 200 euros for those. PC's like a Pentium 4 you easily get for free. I see no good reason to buy hardware if i get hardware for free (Seen that way i am a happy man due to the fact that most people are in shiny new shit and got no idea how to use a slightly old PC which perfectly does the job).  The day before yesterday i found a Celeron 1.3 Gh with 512 of RAM and Windows professional installed, 40Gigs and 20 Gigs harddisk in the garbage. laptops, otoh, i seldom run into, mainly for the reasons you stated (they break pretty fast and are hard to repair).

Last edited by nadir (2013-04-27 00:11:27)

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Be excellent to each other!

#50 2013-04-27 00:14:20

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

mbemboom wrote:
Die Hard wrote:

But the mainstream population doesn`t have old laptops. They change laptops when the battery is starting to fade and/or the hdd crashes. After a couple of years. At least in my part of the world. We are the land of milk and honey, and a laptop is a very small investement for most people, so it`s only geeks like me that mess around with 8-10 year old hardware. Laptops that are a 3-4 years old, you get for 20$. In my country that`s about the value of one pint of beer. No need for anyone in my country to use anything older than that, except for the fun of it:).

My response to this doesn't have anything to do with Debian but I believe that thinking like this is one of many things leading mankind to disaster.  Just because something is inexpensive doesn't mean we should go and buy the latest one to come out if we already have one that functions perfectly.  The natural resources and human suffering involved in it's production and the waste created by disposing of the old one are both things that should be considered.

I agree, and that`s why I refurbish older laptops and passes them on to friends and family. But original batterys are expensive, so when someone actually need the mobility and long battery-time, the cost of a new battery on an old laptop isn`t really worth it. RAM are also quite expensive on older laptops, if you don`t find suitable used ones..., and often a new hdd is needed. All in all, this can quickly cost just as much as a new one in the latest campaign from your pc-dealer... I`m doing this as a hobby, buying up laptops and parts, so I don`t pay to much, but for the average man in the street, this wouldn`t be an option...

Actually I`m bidding for  a stack of laptops right now. Some of them I will fix up, others I will use for parts.

Personally, I have only bought two new pc`s in my life, and I`m almost 50. Then I thought that I deserved a new Windows laptop, and a linux-laptop. Rest assure, I will still be using those 10 years from now, and they will still look as they was bought the day before...

Last edited by ew (2013-04-27 00:47:55)


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