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#26 2013-01-16 15:54:49

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

^ I 'm a Digit fanboi!  wink


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

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Be excellent to each other!

#27 2013-01-16 18:00:47

schwim
#! Die Hard
From: Interweb's #1 Devotee
Registered: 2012-10-11
Posts: 1,031
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

el_koraco wrote:

Take it as a rule of thumb, if you can't make a point without resorting to insults, maybe the Debian Forums is a better place for you to hang.

Digit wrote:

there's an idiot, who reaches into the fire to grab something with his bare hands, and he gets burned.

Digit wrote:

yes dear windows users, you really do look that stupid to us GNU|Linux users.

You're absolutely right.  If you can't make a point without insulting someone, Debian is a fantastic place to be. Anyone that makes a post like that, thinking that he's speaking for me and every other linux user out there isn't deserving of respect from those that he's making look like the real fools.

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#28 2013-01-16 18:08:07

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

Ah these never turn out well.. roll

Reign it back into the original idea that Digit was inspired by

Digit wrote:

this just came to me as i was trying to explain it to my parents who have just recently recovered from a virus, and narrowly escaped another

Or the unfortunate path it is now on will get it closed


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#29 2013-01-16 18:23:30

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: an analogy in the making...

It is a good point. How would you sell Linux, in a nutshell? Or at least explain it to the uninitiated. I once offered to install Linux for a friend and she was like "hell, no".

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#30 2013-01-16 19:00:01

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

zalew wrote:

the problem with bringing up microsucks is that you are in the said 2003 all over again,

i thought there might be some responces like that, which was why i included mention of an up-to-date what's-so-bad-about-microsoft equivalant, with the fsf's campaigns.  frankly, i think everything in microsuck's expose is still valid today.

zalew wrote:

and although it was probably a good year, I'm not planning on being 21 years old again any time soon. the difference between 2013 and 2003 is that everyone who was meant to know why ms sucked or whatever already knows that,

what a frightening statement.  are you saying there's some specialist minority who are meant to know, and everyone else is meant to remain ignorant?! 

zalew wrote:

in the general public opinion they are terrible, the default approach when they announce something is 'it sucks' even before they say what it is. so you're kinda preaching to the choir.

i kinda see where you're coming from, but i dont think it's quite the case.  we've loads of windoze users here.  heck i still had my windoze tax on this laptop when i started using crunchbang.  crunchbang's quite a popular distro for windoze refugees, and tentative toe-dippers just using it live, or in a dual boot.   and this is a publically accessible forum, anyone could come by and read this.  also, my intent with this thread was to better clean-up/construct the analogy, so that it can be taken off to those who might better benefit from it, and have it be a crowbar to pry open their closed minds, and allow such a discussion and exploration of the whys and whats, inluding citing well made, concise elaborations on the matter, including the likes of microsuck and fsf's campaigns. 

zalew wrote:

don't get me wrong, I enjoy hating a bigcorp just like the next guy,

i dont.  i wish there was nothing to hate about them.  i wish they would never commit an atrocity.

zalew wrote:

but unless you spent the las 10 years under the ice you should notice a whole new opportunity of excitement about another company and it's 'amazing' products that 'just work' with a 'secure' ecosystem of 'curated' software. people piss their pants standing in 10 hour lines, developers on their knees begging the most expensive company in IT to let their app into the store, and so called tech bloggers seem to have better discipline about their propaganda than the nazi party in 1933.

i used to be a front-line grunt for the advertising/marketting industry.  i know how susceptable and maliable people can be.  i've at least some notion of how many millions go into shaping perception.  it is insidious, and grosse.  a great forceto shape the world, unconcerned with truth, nor any other principles of decency.  i now see it as the duty of anyone who can hold higher ethics, ideals, principles, to do their part to counter this, wherever they can, to dispell the bs.

zalew wrote:

microsoft? nobody gives a shit. they slept over the last decade of evolution, they are going down with or without your hatred because of terrible management, just like ibm did 20 years before. move on.

that would be nice, and i'm sure that's the perception of the i*/android/kindle crowds, but i see that as much the same, another managed perception, curated by those making the prisonware.  fact is, microsoft still have the majority on the desktop (at least in what used to be called "the first world"), and they do lose ground thanks to the evangelising of both the Free Software movement, and the Open Source movement.  so, i do genuinely thank you for your input, but it shant silence me on the matter.

zalew wrote:

I'm a bit afraid of how seriously some people will take all of the above said, lol, but it's a wink wink that if you're into negative propaganda, then you shall probably refocus.

well said.
that was partly why i wanted to improve what i had started with that initial version of the analogy. 

zalew wrote:

that all said, if I am to convince somebody to use linux I'd prefer to tell the good bits, not run around calling people idiots, because it's not how you advertise a product, not is it how you attract productive community members.

  quite.  but i did want to find a way to convey to them, how foolish it looks to some other perspectives, to keep causing yourself upset/harm, doing something that needn't be done in a way that causes said upset/harm.   i hear windows users complain and complain and complain about viruses and such still to this day and age.  if i had failed to convey that much, then i was right that the analogy needed improvement.  the idea was to inspire in their minds a "oh, there's a better way? tell me more.", not to put them off with "oh, how obnoxious, i shant listen to that."

PS. (seen other posts now too)
this is serious, but it's also supposed to be fun.  sorry it's ruffled so many feathers.  de-featherruffling-izing it is why it was posted.  rather than getting defensive re-iterating points i've already made (and seemed to be missed despite being covered multiple times), i'll post this pic, in hope it lightens the mood.

tumblr_m80xt6a50t1rwgdwdo1_500.jpg

PPS, oh!  i forgot to mention, in practice, this didnt offend those windows users i delivered it to (my parents), they actually smiled and liked it.   i suppose it's all in the delivery, and written in text, it probably does come accross as sounding more offensive.  that might explain why it's gotten such a negative responce here.

Last edited by Digit (2013-01-16 19:26:14)

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#31 2013-01-16 20:10:00

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: an analogy in the making...

Errrr how many people can read Latin?

Google Translate wrote:

Why do you have to be a fool, layeth it allowed, but it is not permitted such a thing to show me?

edit:

intoCB wrote:

It is a good point. How would you sell Linux, in a nutshell? Or at least explain it to the uninitiated. I once offered to install Linux for a friend and she was like "hell, no".

First off I would not try selling Linux unless a person clearly says they hate/dislike Windows and they want an alternative. Then it's simply a matter of conveying the benefits. For most people the obvious benefit is they don't have to worry about malware and it's free as in beer. If they have an older XP computer, switching to Linux might be a way to keep the computer running and not having to buy a new one. If they have a newer 7/8 computer though, performance may not be an issue. 4GB is very common on computers nowadays. Even 2GB is sufficient for at least web browsing, video playback, and office apps.

Last edited by anonymous (2013-01-16 20:19:57)

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#32 2013-01-16 20:24:49

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: an analogy in the making...

Digit wrote:
zalew wrote:

microsoft? nobody gives a shit. they slept over the last decade of evolution, they are going down with or without your hatred because of terrible management, just like ibm did 20 years before. move on.

that would be nice, and i'm sure that's the perception of the i*/android/kindle crowds, but i see that as much the same, another managed perception, curated by those making the prisonware.  fact is, microsoft still have the majority on the desktop (at least in what used to be called "the first world"), and they do lose ground thanks to the evangelising of both the Free Software movement, and the Open Source movement.  so, i do genuinely thank you for your input, but it shant silence me on the matter.

they lose ground thanks to the shift towards online services and mobile devices, not thanks to floss. why I may not like specific players, competition is always a good thing. I'm not worried about them still winning the fight for the desktop when desktop stops being the battlefield. people seem to forget how big of a monster ms was back then - apple was a hippie thing, palmtops and phones where a joke, and basically the pc was the only piece of equipment people used to work and communicate with each other, and on that pc they had like 99% of the market, they dictated all the rules for boxed software as well as for accessing the web, while ignoring every rule and standard out there, just because they could. today it's different, they are the big winners on a market that is losing ground as a whole. contrary to many, I'm not wishing they die into oblivion like kodak, but I'm perfectly happy some balance got restored. the battle for the web (that including b2b and b2c saas) and for mobile is something to focus on right now (although I'm worried about many aspects that came with it, but that's another story).

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#33 2013-01-16 20:27:49

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: an analogy in the making...

@Anonymous, it means something like:
'Why is it allowed for you to be a fool, but not for me to point out that you are?'

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#34 2013-01-16 20:29:22

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: an analogy in the making...

Much appreciated!

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