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#51 2012-06-22 23:07:49

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

@omns

Thought you'd NEVER ask...  lol  Please send email from my user panel if that is no bother.


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#52 2012-06-22 23:11:16

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:

^ I can get my head around DL, but the damned thing never works... roll

It works for Corenominal... tongue

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#53 2012-06-22 23:11:58

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ He has higher brain matter than I have, obviously... thanks for pointing it out roll


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#54 2012-06-22 23:13:11

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Babbling 2 cents ... Unless it's really pressing, guessing sticking with the lowest common denominator can't hurt. That being cd's ... Assuming #! is the type of distro many low spec hardware users turn to. Old spec isn't always going to include dvd, boot from usb ...

This old thing can't boot from usb ( w/o some finnaggling, this is supposed to let someone boot from usb, even on a pc that's bio's doesn't support it. Never tried it myself yet.) So yeppers, have taken to using RW cd's to install everything gnu/nixish. Old thang, does have a dvd-rw drive onboard too though.

Curious what #! could need that would fill up 4.7gbs on a dvd ? Like many others have already said and with sooo many other distro's around that do it, think keeping the cd install option alive n kickin can't hurt. Just for the sake of covering more bases, shrugs. Crunchbang netinstall, adding whichever to cb-welcome like Mynis01 suggests ? ... Yeah ! #!-lite ?

Something I've long thought is a kickbutt idea. Stuff like suse studio. Dunno ... but guessing there's no shortage of ways to go about keeping the install iso downsized. Freely admit Corenominal knows a shizzleton more about the what/where/hows and etc though.


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#55 2012-06-23 04:43:13

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:

Thought you'd NEVER ask...  lol  Please send email from my user panel if that is no bother.

I originally got them from @rich but haven't had much time to do anything with them. I'll check with him if it's ok to share them smile

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#56 2012-06-23 04:59:21

falldown
#! Samurai
Registered: 2011-09-01
Posts: 1,727

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

rhowaldt wrote:

^ & ^^ i have no experience with netinstalls so that is why i didn't think of that option. certainly true.

rhowaldt You should try a netinstall.. I did my first one a few days ago and I have to say that I am very proud of my new unstable debian toy!! smile
I was a little intimidated at first, but this lovely #! family walked me through it.

On Topic: I always use a usb flash, but I think a cb-lite revisited would be cool.

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#57 2012-06-23 06:55:47

drewdle
#! Member
From: Victoria, Canada
Registered: 2011-08-12
Posts: 92

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I have to agree with a few others that the small, simple, elegant and stable descriptors are the best part of CrunchBang. You will never please everyone with the default install, so why bloat it up trying? I love most of the stuff that I get in the default install, but I've added Rhythmbox, Firefox, Thunderbird, some emulation software, VirtualBox, Chrome, and the list goes on. I've also torn out some of the stuff Debian brings to the party, like the Ice twins.

That said, I also understand that newer underpinnings may cause some size problems. I don't have any issues with a DVD image, as I've been burning most images to DVD media for years now. CD's are more expensive in Canada thanks to our government's insistence on a "copyright levy" of 30 cents per disc. This makes your average $10 spindle of coasters cost $30. DVDs, on the other hand, are $10 for the fifty, no levy. Makes up your mind pretty fast, really.

I just don't think a "fat" CrunchBang image is necessary. smile It's your show of course.


~ Drewdle ~
Toshiba Satellite A200 - Pentium T2310 1.46Ghz / CrunchBang Waldorf

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#58 2012-06-23 22:28:16

sunfizz98
Carbonated Orange Juice
From: su terminal
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,876
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

omns wrote:
pidsley wrote:

I don't want to argue with you.

I didn't think that at all  smile I was just curious about the hardware that forum members use. I haven't seen a dvd-less machine in a very long time.

I have two machines without any dvd drives. I have a 1990s desktop that only accepts cds (cannot boot from usb) and an Asus Ultrabook that is too slim to use a dvd drive.

@rhowaldt
I have a feeling I know whom you're referring to big_smile

+1 about Awebb's idea of having a 700mb "lite" iso and a heavy iso.

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#59 2012-06-24 00:05:54

saneks
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2009-10-01
Posts: 1,020

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I still have cds for rejuvenating old computers, that are fun again to use thanks to crunchbang but that do not boot from usb. I havent tried booting from dvd on old laptops, since the cd-size limit was never exceeded wink - I came across quite a few lately.

wouldn't an old image with #! debian and dist-upgrade be about the same as installing new version? or do a welcome script that always gives you the latest #! no matter which live-cd you used.


eee701 user & other lap/desktops

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#60 2012-06-24 00:54:32

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

saneks wrote:

wouldn't an old image with #! debian and dist-upgrade be about the same as installing new version?

...no.  Apparently, even with stock Debian, it's mot uncommon to have to do some "maintenance" (to put it mildly) if you try to go from one stable release to the next without doing a clean reinstall.  There have been a few threads here recently on this very concept, though admittedly those have been about migrating from Statler Stable to Waldorf Testing.

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#61 2012-06-24 01:14:54

rhowaldt
#!*$%:)
Registered: 2011-03-09
Posts: 4,396

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

@sunfizz: glad you picked up on that sneaky compliment smile

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#62 2012-06-24 01:17:29

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ Hopefully Bacon will be around... tongue


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#63 2012-06-24 16:58:29

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Eh? big_smile

I would have looooved to see a #!-lite edition, but netinstall + a "cblite"-welcome script will do the same. Question #86 is if there is anybody with a sane mind who would use this lite version.

Where can Waldorf be shaved to fit the 700, if that's a question. I never use gnumeric, for example, or I replace evince with epdfview (it does the same thing but weighs a bit less), so maybe (maybe) there could be a pipemenu that installs the "Goffice" packages (abi & gnumeric)? This saves how much, 20 MB? I mean, if you download the stuff on an ISO or later per APT is absolutely the same thing, but it does make a difference for those unlucky ones who cannot boot from USB. Especially if we check the Devel section and the problems some people have with the installer when booted from USB...

Oh and VastOne: you remember, we just need to talk him into it big_smile

Last edited by machinebacon (2012-06-24 17:04:43)


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#64 2012-06-24 17:06:02

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Instead of removing abiword/gnumeric one can also make them lighter. I don't know standard Debian packaging, but take a look at these packages here:

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=Unia

Those are the Goffice packages, but lighter: they don't have any gnome deps.

Last edited by Unia (2012-06-24 17:06:44)


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#65 2012-06-24 17:08:33

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^They're pulled in by evince and file-roller anyway big_smile


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#66 2012-06-24 17:57:03

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

machinebacon wrote:

^They're pulled in by evince and file-roller anyway big_smile

Well then swap Evince for EPDFview! Same functionality, but lighter!

And eh, it's not Christmas yet big_smile


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#67 2012-06-24 18:00:35

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ 'tis what I wrote befo' big_smile

Not Christmas yet but soon Wheezy's going to be frozen, so we get presents soon.


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#68 2012-06-24 18:57:12

rhowaldt
#!*$%:)
Registered: 2011-03-09
Posts: 4,396

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

with machinebacon, it is Christmas all year 'round! big_smile

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#69 2012-06-24 20:14:42

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I've been tracking this thread with great interest over the last few days. From what I can see much of the feedback can be split into two main areas.

1. If going over 700mb there is a need/desire for a CrunchBang lite to replace it.

2. Recommendations for what to exclude from the image to make it lighter. i.e. remove gnumeric, abiword etc and put them into cb-welcome instead. That sort for thing.

I'll admit to being a bit of a devil's advocate in my comments about how many older machines forum members actually have that only boot from CD's and have been surprised by the number of replies.

In the spirit of devil's advocate I'll offer some similar feedback on the discussion so far.

Removal of packages - one of the great things about CrunchBang is the amount of drivers, codecs etc that it comes with out of the box. With that also comes a nice range of software to get things done along the lines of the 'one app for each purpose' approach. By removing some of those packages you essentially remove what CrunchBang is and strives to be. To me it is a one stop shop for simple solutions to a variety of needs. If it is no longer possible to do this within the confines of a CD image then so be it.

In that context we are then bought to the second main point being raised of a need for the resurrection of CrunchBang lite builds. These builds we're retired for good reason and I don't see the benefit for corenominal in reintroducing them. I'd rather see his efforts solely focused on making one CrunchBang image that is the best all round Linux distro out there in terms if it's philosophy.

With that in mind a community edition or other Debian build has been raised as the way to go. This is a great idea but I wonder if it would actually happen. As a community we tend to rely on the efforts of corenominal and have high expectations for him to meet our needs. If corenominal opens up sections of the project to community development I wonder if it really will be utilized by the community. 

As an example I'd refer to the recent github account that was opened. I imagine that corenominal was testing the waters a bit to see how much interest  there actually was in contributing to the design and development of the project. The invite to contribute to the cb-fortune script was a very simple one and a great way to see if there was any interest in community input for other projects.

So far the input from us into this little project has been virtually non-existent. There have been a few contributions and I'll admit that my own 3 weeks ago was mainly to test and see how it worked. I hope to contribute more but time, like it is for many of us, is difficult to find smile The original post was made around 6 weeks ago so I would be skeptical about our real commitment to making meaningful contributions to the project at this level. Ideas and suggestions are great but it's all to easy to be telling corenominal how to do things on one hand and not be prepared to put in some effort towards that on the other.

So as for the CrunchBang lite idea I'd suggest a coupe of things. If there is interest in this sort of thing then maybe someone should have a go at it smile If not then there are a multitude of solutions, scripts and ideas here on the forums for ways to create your own Debian lite build. If you have a CD drive and a connection then the world is your oyster smile In that context I don't see much need for a lite edition. What we've created here in terms of howtos and scripts to make your own lite builds is more than enough to keep the enthusiasts amongst us who maintain old machines happy.

Finally I'd close with the thought that we are a great community full of equally great and wonderful ideas. Amongst us we have some really talented and giving members who have developed and shared some excellent scripts, programs, artwork etc. Some of which have made their way into the distro. Compton is a great example of this as well as johnraff's various scripts that were taken on board and further refined.

Now all that said the purpose of this thread as I see it is to argue the merits or not of the main image going over 700mb or not. I didn't see a request for how  the image should be put together or what to include or exclude but that may just be me over simplifying things. 

Feel free to keep the discussion going and agree or disagree with anything I've said here. Mine is just one voice smile

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#70 2012-06-24 20:59:41

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ Very offtopic: Yes yes, ignore the 'GOffice pipemenu' statement above. smile I got carried away while reading through the thread. However, I find the pipe-menus in #! excellent and they are quite unique in Linuxland. I wonder if people would find it disturbing if they could choose to install LibreOffice and/or Goffice through the pipe-menu. If the problem is just a handful of MB's (megabytes, not machinebacons) exceeding the 700MB limit, this could be an idea (!) Honestly, Abiword/Gnumeric is not exactly the very first software I run on a fresh install.

BTT: I have not installed from CD in recent years, a real distrohopper has a handful of USB sticks at hand tongue

Last edited by machinebacon (2012-06-24 21:00:27)


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#71 2012-06-24 21:17:14

rhowaldt
#!*$%:)
Registered: 2011-03-09
Posts: 4,396

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

@omns: wow. i kinda agree with everything you said there smile

machinebacon wrote:

If the problem is just a handful of MB's (megabytes, not machinebacons)

whaaaaaat hahahaha lol

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#72 2012-06-24 21:32:24

saneks
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2009-10-01
Posts: 1,020

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

stripping off useful programs would diminish the use of a live-cd . a live cd should give you a good and working system and all software you need for basic tasks, and this without having a connection for post-install-installs: stuff for writing letters, listening to music, browse the web, share data - i think software wise there is not much left that can be taken away without losing usablility.

I

Last edited by saneks (2012-06-24 21:34:40)


eee701 user & other lap/desktops

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#73 2012-06-24 21:45:46

sunfizz98
Carbonated Orange Juice
From: su terminal
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,876
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^perhaps, but then there was a lot of daemons added to waldorf of which I dare not mention.  It has certainly became more useful than the prior release, but I'm not sure to which crowd/audience.

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#74 2012-06-24 22:16:27

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

rhowaldt wrote:

with machinebacon, it is Christmas all year 'round! big_smile

With CrunchBang, it's Christmas when Corenominal sez it iz!

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Be excellent to each other!

#75 2012-06-24 22:24:39

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

pvsage wrote:
rhowaldt wrote:

with machinebacon, it is Christmas all year 'round! big_smile

With CrunchBang, it's Christmas when Corenominal sez it iz!

+1 for a Christmas-lite. It is getting far too bloated for my liking hmm


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