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#26 2012-06-22 17:45:24

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

My box won't boot from a usb so for selfish reasons I'd like to have a CD-size iso if possible. They're very cheap here too - about 1/30 the price of a new usb stick.

btw

VastOne wrote:

one could do a netinstal or business card install and add the #! hooks and setup

Is there a HowTo for that somewhere?


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#27 2012-06-22 18:08:49

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

There is this one on the wiki here, all one would need to make sure is to use the most current packages from sources here that has both Statler and Waldorf files.


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#28 2012-06-22 18:22:24

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Fedora had gone through this debate for a few releases, deciding on the last one (Fedora 16), finally, to release on a live DVD, since CDs were not able to hold enough data. I don't remember exactly the argument for keeping CDs as well, but I think it had to do with what rhowaldt mentioned about older hardware and there were some issues revolving around the availability of DVD burners (?).

Unless there's a compelling reason to keep it under 700MB -- and other than the old hardware argument, I can't think of any reason -- going over that and having folks install with DVDs and/or USB sticks is certainly the way to go.

Last edited by lcafiero (2012-06-22 18:22:51)


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#29 2012-06-22 18:35:32

mynis01
#! Die Hard
From: 127.0.0.1
Registered: 2010-07-02
Posts: 2,005

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Why not just keep it to a 700MiB install image and make it so some of the apps/artwork are installed from cb-welcome or an obmenu pipe menu?

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#30 2012-06-22 20:02:08

bobrossw
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-02-08
Posts: 521

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I think the small size and light resource footprint are the  most appealing parts of #!.  I just installed it on a dual-boot (#!/windows) netbook SSD.  So I've got 65 gigs total, and I managed to spare 7 for #!.  I like that it gives a lot for so little.  I get that the size of packages are out of corenomial's control, but I'm happy with the welcome script, and the option to leave out less necessary packages as needed.  I also like the menu items that offer to install other common programs.

On the other hand, there is a pretty solid out of the box experience with #! now. I don't know what I would recommend getting rid of, if more space needed to be made...For example, I might take out Abiword from the core install, but I imagine not being able to read documents after an install would turn some other people off.  Same issue with programs like vlc.  They are too useful to be left  out, so what gets left behind to make a 700mg install CD?

One thing that does concern me is the waldorf install right now doesn't seem to work on a flash drive...at least I needed to put it on a CD to get it to work.  I think making it only work on a DVD-R would be a problem.

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#31 2012-06-22 20:19:38

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

What's a CD? wink No problem removing the limitation at this end. Would we have many/any users that only have a CD drive and subsequently couldn't burn a DVD if USB is not an option?

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#32 2012-06-22 20:32:03

pidsley
Window Mangler
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 1,752

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

omns wrote:

Would we have many/any users that only have a CD drive and subsequently couldn't burn a DVD if USB is not an option?

"Many"? probably not. "Any"? very likely.

Last edited by pidsley (2012-06-22 20:32:45)

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#33 2012-06-22 20:40:39

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ I'll be interested to see if there are any replies supporting the unable to use a DVD option.

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#34 2012-06-22 20:49:12

hinto
#! Windbag
From: Cary, NC
Registered: 2010-12-08
Posts: 1,487

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ usually you can update the BIOS to boot a USB stick.
-H


"Sometimes I wish I hadn't taken the red pill" -Me

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#35 2012-06-22 20:51:37

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

personally speaking 3/5 of my dilapidated range of hardware would prefer a CD to anything else.  smile
anything new ie over 5 years old is cool with DVD/USB.

so there could be a call for a lite version - for older slower machines and a DVD version that would make use of the newer hardware.
I understand 2 versions would be more work. big_smile

@lcafiero - I'm amazed at anybody finding it hard to get a DVD burner.... mine broke 2 years ago and i thought i'd just get another CD burner...It was impossible, DVD-r was the de-facto...

@omns if it can't run a USB, personally speaking, it wont have a DVD player (at least without swapping the unit over, which is hard for lappies)

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#36 2012-06-22 20:52:56

pidsley
Window Mangler
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 1,752

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

omns wrote:

^ I'll be interested to see if there are any replies supporting the unable to use a DVD option.

Any machine old enough to be unable to boot from USB is unlikely to have a DVD drive. I have one. Out of my five machines, only one has a DVD drive and it can also boot from USB. One has no optical drive but can boot from USB. One has only a CD drive and can't boot from USB.

I don't want to argue with you, and I don't think removing the 700M limit is necessarily a bad thing. I was just answering your question. There will be some people who can't boot from USB and don't have a DVD drive. They can do netinstalls or use another distro.

(edit) thanks wuxmedia.

Last edited by pidsley (2012-06-22 20:55:40)

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#37 2012-06-22 20:58:02

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

pidsley wrote:

I don't want to argue with you.

I didn't think that at all  smile I was just curious about the hardware that forum members use. I haven't seen a dvd-less machine in a very long time.

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#38 2012-06-22 21:00:03

pidsley
Window Mangler
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 1,752

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

hinto wrote:

^ usually you can update the BIOS to boot a USB stick.
-H

True, but both this and the netinstall option ask a lot from people who may just want to try #! to see if they like it. Going over the 700M limit will shut out some people. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but it's a true thing.

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#39 2012-06-22 21:07:18

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

wuxmedia wrote:

@lcafiero - I'm amazed at anybody finding it hard to get a DVD burner.... mine broke 2 years ago and i thought i'd just get another CD burner...It was impossible, DVD-r was the de-facto...

That may be, wuxmedia, if you're within walking/riding/driving distance of a Best Buy or other electronics store. Then, yeah, there are DVD burners up the wazoo. But let's say I live in an area where there's no electronics store within hours of my house or a DVD burner is out of range of my budget -- not so "de facto" then, huh? I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of situations like this, especially outside the first world. That's why I bring it up.

Again, I can go either way and thanks, corenominal, for bringing it up for discussion (and I hope the discussion is helpful). Someone mentioned earlier about whether the extra software can be included as part of the post-install script, which would be a good solution for both sides of the question.

As for me, it's really not going to affect how I distribute #! at shows and expos and such -- if it's more than 700MB, I'll just burn DVDs.

Last edited by lcafiero (2012-06-22 21:07:41)


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#40 2012-06-22 21:20:19

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

@lcafiero €20 delivered to my door wasn't out of my budget, in fact a CD burner was a stupid amount of money - seeing as a DVD burner can do CD's nobody makes CD burners (dead cheap) - unless maybe there's a huge stock waiting to be cleared somewhere. roll
Is France considered 1st world? Doesn't seem like it sometimes. big_smile

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#41 2012-06-22 21:26:32

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

If the 700MiB limit has to be set, I would agree with taking out some packages and giving those an entry in the cb-welcome script. I think that's a nice balance between 'lightness' and 'OOTB' experience.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

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#42 2012-06-22 21:26:49

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Heh. I can't answer that one, wuxmedia. But yeah, if that works for you, great. big_smile


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#43 2012-06-22 22:25:34

rhowaldt
#!*$%:)
Registered: 2011-03-09
Posts: 4,396

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

also, i'm sure that if the 'default' #! goes over 700MB, some smart dude inside our little community will just build us all a lite-version smile

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#44 2012-06-22 22:49:15

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ Are you sure?  There's been talk in the past of "community editions", almost always going nowhere. neutral

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#45 2012-06-22 22:52:07

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ Glass House syndrome... wink


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

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#46 2012-06-22 22:53:58

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:

I do not see the need for a light-version where one could do a netinstal or business card install and add the #! hooks and setup and have exactly what they want.

You cannot get anymore minimal than that and it does not add a massive support/creation piece to corePa's already loaded plate.

One point here, a big part of #!'s appeal is the third feature on the About page... Ease of use. Using a CD size image a person with very little experience currently can install a working Debian/Openbox system preconfigured with wireless drivers and multimedia packages. That's not the type of user who is going to tackle a netinstall using only a wireless connection and then add the necessary packages and codecs for multimedia.

-edit-
@omns, my desktop plays DVD's but only writes to CD (it's ~7 years old). Or it would do those things if that drive hadn't fried 3 weeks ago. tongue

Last edited by hhh (2012-06-22 22:59:00)


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#47 2012-06-22 23:04:16

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:

^ Glass House syndrome... wink

Yeah, guilty as charged.

My work hours have been cut in half recently; I might have a go at such a Lite edition (and the Sid-based edition I'd mentioned earlier) if I can get my head around Debian Live.

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#48 2012-06-22 23:05:19

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

pvsage wrote:

...if I can get my head around Debian Live.

It's just time consuming more than anything else smile

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#49 2012-06-22 23:05:46

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ I can get my head around DL, but the damned thing never works... roll


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#50 2012-06-22 23:06:19

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^^Oh, and I have some nice sample scripts for Debian Live if you are interested smile

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