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#1 2015-07-01 13:20:57

Colossal_Crunch
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2015-05-06
Posts: 154

What is BunsenLabs?

Crunchbang:
"CrunchBang is a Debian GNU/Linux based distribution offering a great blend of speed, style and substance. Using the nimble Openbox window manager, it is highly customisable and provides a modern, full-featured GNU/Linux system without sacrificing performance."

BunsenLabs:
                      "?"

I was hoping to get a discussion started focusing on what goals BunsenLabs is trying to accomplish. Are the key features of BunsenLabs the same as Crunchbang? What, if any, are the new philosophies that BunsenLabs will be adding?


"When I first started working on CrunchBang, the Linux landscape was a very different place and whilst I honestly didn’t know if there was any value to it, I knew there was a place for CrunchBang on my own systems. As it turned out, there seemed to be quite a demand for it on other people’s systems too. I’m not entirely sure why this was the case, but if I had to guess, I would say that it was probably due to the lack of competition/alternatives of the same ilk. If I’m remembering correctly, at the time, there was no LXDE tasksel in Debian and certainly no Lubuntu around. CrunchBang filled a gap and that was nifty." -Corenominal

Super nimble- Corenominal seems to think that lubuntu has really taken over when it comes to this feature. Will BunsenLabs be heavily focused on trying to compete for being the "light-weight champ"?

Infinitely hackable & Ease of use- Will BunsenLabs try to make its system as easy to use as possible out of the box? Is it very easy to customize? I have noticed a great deal of work has been spent of trying to help new users find resources and help with customizing the system. Will this feature have more focus in BunsenLabs?

Compatibility with Debian-Will BunsenLabs be built entirely from packages available from the Debian repositories or eventually have a few exceptions like crunchbang?

"For anyone who has been involved with Linux for the past ten years or so, I’m sure they’ll agree that things have moved on. Whilst some things have stayed exactly the same, others have changed beyond all recognition. It’s called progress, and for the most part, progress is a good thing. That said, when progress happens, some things get left behind, and for me, CrunchBang is something that I need to leave behind. I’m leaving it behind because I honestly believe that it no longer holds any value, and whilst I could hold on to it for sentimental reasons, I don’t believe that would be in the best interest of its users, who would benefit from using vanilla Debian." -Corenominal

What will be the main reason for using BunsenLabs opposed to Debian with lxde? I think that BunsenLabs is a evolving beast and that is why it will survive and thrive but what is it becoming?

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#2 2015-07-01 13:23:42

Colossal_Crunch
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2015-05-06
Posts: 154

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

I use Bunsenlabs because It just looks cool.... :8
I use older computers. I use lubuntu on "work" computers that I don't want to mess with, but use bunsenlabs on my "fun" pc.

Last edited by Colossal_Crunch (2015-07-01 13:29:38)

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#3 2015-07-01 15:03:38

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

Did you read the first post in the Development Sticky?

Most of your questions are answered there.


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#4 2015-07-01 16:02:24

Colossal_Crunch
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2015-05-06
Posts: 154

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

damo wrote:

Did you read the first post in the Development Sticky?

Most of your questions are answered there.

I don't know if I had or not but I just did and it didn't seem to really answer my questions about BL. I didn't want to know what is packaged in Bunsen, but what is Bunsen. I am wondering if you or anyone else on the team might share why BL needs to exist. What kind of people will use BL and why? Is BL going to follow the same ideas that CB had? I don't think it is trying very hard to be a "light-weight" distro. I suspect that Bl and CB were both largely about the look. You damo I am guessing are very influential in that area.

I'm wondering not what makes BunsenLabs like Crunchbang but what makes it different. Isn't that what is really going to matter in the end? Does BL have any of its own goals? When Corenominal created CB I am assuming he had a goal in mind. He wanted it to be light-weight, look cool, easy to use, and hackable. Does the BL team have that exact same criteria?

Lastly, I just want to know why you and the other developers are doing it. Do you just love CB and refuse to watch it die? Do you just like working on a distro and would of worked on another one if CB still was being developed. Do you want BL to be CB 2.0?

I understand that what is in BL, well mostly. I am using it everyday now and really enjoying it. However, what is the sales pitch on what makes BL better or at least different then lubuntu or debian with lxde.

I'm trying to justify its existence. It's kind of important for people to want to use your product if you ever want it to suceed, right?

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#5 2015-07-01 16:06:19

News Plus
#! Member
Registered: 2015-02-23
Posts: 90

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

BunsenLabs will be "cooler", than Crunchbang.
LXDE will be  more "lightweight", than Bunsen.

And I would like "Bork" (openbox minimal spin) based on Debian stable.  tongue
This would be priceless.

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#6 2015-07-01 16:12:53

Colossal_Crunch
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2015-05-06
Posts: 154

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

News Plus wrote:

BunsenLabs will be "cooler", than Crunchbang.
LXDE will be  more "lightweight", than Bunsen.

And I would like "Bork" (openbox minimal spin) based on Debian stable.  tongue
This would be priceless.

Thank you! That is exactly what I'm trying to get feedback on. BunsenLabs is trying to appeal to, well, nerds by looking awesome. If you wanted a super light-weight distro then you have several available choices. Now I'm not saying that Bunsen doesn't want to stay in the light weight, no bloatware, group. I am sure that BL wants very much to be light, just not exclusively. I would like to know if that is true. It would be nice to get some more feedback about this from the developers and the users.

What is Bunsen?

I'm trying to get a thread going that is similar to "Why do you use #!" but about Bunsen. Why use it? What is it the right choice?
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=412

Last edited by Colossal_Crunch (2015-07-01 16:17:02)

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#7 2015-07-01 16:23:38

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

Bunsen Labs is a place. Bunsen Labs is a state of mind.

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#8 2015-07-01 19:33:10

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

@OP
That sticky seems to answer your questions AFAICS

BunsenLabs will make every effort to maintain a user interface and user experience similar to what made CrunchBang so wonderful, including Openbox, mostly-gray default artwork and themes, useful pipemenus, Tint2, a simple, informative default Conky, and keyboard shortcuts for all the things.

If you want something else, then by all means install it or configure BL how you like. Speaking for myself I like the OB menu and pipemenu approach that CB had; I like Debian; I like Tint2 and Conky; I like apt. So BL ticks all the boxes.

I've been pushing to make it as noob-friendly as possible, but there will always be hardware that doesn't work OOTB, so that is where these forums come in.

Last edited by damo (2015-07-01 19:34:38)


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#9 2015-07-01 19:37:22

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

How about:

BunsenLabs:

"BunsenLabs is a Debian GNU/Linux based distribution offering a great blend of speed, style and substance. Using the nimble Openbox window manager, it is highly customisable and provides a modern, full-featured GNU/Linux system without sacrificing performance."

EDIT: I forgot ...

... and comes with no warranted whatsoever and might make your computer burn up. Don't let the smoke out!

Last edited by Sector11 (2015-07-01 19:45:58)


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
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#10 2015-07-01 22:46:52

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

BunsenLabs is a lot like Crunchbang on the surface but it is also extending some functionality in areas that we all thought needed improvment. For instance, @cpoakes did an excellent job scripting up an expanded update-alternatives script that allows BunsenLabs users to specify more defaults than the current Debian update-alternatives system.

The eye candy is not the only thing that has received a good polishing. A lot of under the hood stuff had to go on to make a #! like alternative that uses current Debian Jessie functionality. If you look at the way things are accomplished in #!, you will see stuff that is considered outmoded in current Debian stable. For instance, the logout script used to use dbus calls for all the different logout options. It has been updated to use current systemd calls. I don't remember specifically but I think it also can fall back to the old dbus calls if you are using the sysvinit shim.

The point is, there are numerous small tweaks and fixes going on that may not be immediately apparent but had to be done in order to bring a #!-like system current. I understand that it may be difficult to go through all the development threads and see all the small tweaks and changes, so I have to ask you to trust that both developers and forum members giving feedback have put a lot of thought and effort into making BunsenLabs a great Linux experience.

See, we could have just made a #! clone such as so many are doing and been done with it. However, the majority of us felt like we needed to push the envelope some and see what ways we could improve on the #! experience.

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#11 2015-07-01 23:01:01

Colossal_Crunch
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2015-05-06
Posts: 154

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

tknomanzr wrote:

BunsenLabs is a lot like Crunchbang on the surface but it is also extending some functionality in areas that we all thought needed improvment. For instance, @cpoakes did an excellent job scripting up an expanded update-alternatives script that allows BunsenLabs users to specify more defaults than the current Debian update-alternatives system.

The eye candy is not the only thing that has received a good polishing. A lot of under the hood stuff had to go on to make a #! like alternative that uses current Debian Jessie functionality. If you look at the way things are accomplished in #!, you will see stuff that is considered outmoded in current Debian stable. For instance, the logout script used to use dbus calls for all the different logout options. It has been updated to use current systemd calls. I don't remember specifically but I think it also can fall back to the old dbus calls if you are using the sysvinit shim.

See, we could have just made a #! clone such as so many are doing and been done with it. However, the majority of us felt like we needed to push the envelope some and see what ways we could improve on the #! experience.

To me what you're saying is that BunsenLabs basically is trying to be Crunchbang. The biggest difference between say monara, crunchbang ++, and BunsenLabs is that BL has taken the most time to make it work better with debian 8 and look better. The group doesn't seem to have any other goals.

So what would make someone want to use BunsenLabs instead of Crunchbang? I mean up until Crunchbang stops recieving security updates.

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#12 2015-07-02 01:10:13

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

Colossal_Crunch wrote:

To me what you're saying is that BunsenLabs basically is trying to be Crunchbang. The biggest difference between say monara, crunchbang ++, and BunsenLabs is that BL has taken the most time to make it work better with debian 8 and look better. The group doesn't seem to have any other goals.

So what would make someone want to use BunsenLabs instead of Crunchbang? I mean up until Crunchbang stops recieving security updates.

Again you aren't listening to the answers you are getting. How much clearer can our "goals" be?

BunsenLabs will make every effort to maintain a user interface and user experience similar to what made CrunchBang so wonderful, including Openbox, mostly-gray default artwork and themes, useful pipemenus, Tint2, a simple, informative default Conky, and keyboard shortcuts for all the things.

tknomanzr wrote:

BunsenLabs is a lot like Crunchbang on the surface but it is also extending some functionality in areas that we all thought needed improvment...

....A lot of under the hood stuff had to go on to make a #! like alternative that uses current Debian Jessie functionality. If you look at the way things are accomplished in #!, you will see stuff that is considered outmoded in current Debian stable.

...etc

People can use CB as long as they like, but if they want it based on current Stable, they need to jump through a few hoops. CB is less likely to work OOTB on newer hardware, backports may have to be used, several scripts need editing, etc, etc.

If they want a Crunchbang-like experience, using newer sources, then they either tweak and dist-upgrade it themselves, or use one of the newer alternatives on offer.


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#13 2015-07-02 06:03:37

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

tknomanzr wrote:

you will see stuff that is considered outmoded in current Debian stable. For instance, the logout script used to use dbus calls for all the different logout options. It has been updated to use current systemd calls. I don't remember specifically but I think it also can fall back to the old dbus calls if you are using the sysvinit shim.

The original bl-exit script used `systemctl` commands and was only compatible with systemd.

This was changed back to dbus calls following discussions in this thread:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=39357

Debian Stable supports all init systems in respect of exit scripts for the supplied DEs (and all other matters).

Colassal_Crunch wrote:

So what would make someone want to use BunsenLabs instead of Crunchbang? I mean up until Crunchbang stops recieving security updates.

Newer packages.

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#14 2015-07-02 08:09:25

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

tknomanzr wrote:

BunsenLabs is a lot like Crunchbang on the surface but it is also extending some functionality in areas that we all thought needed improvment. For instance, @cpoakes did an excellent job scripting up an expanded update-alternatives script that allows BunsenLabs users to specify more defaults than the current Debian update-alternatives system.

The eye candy is not the only thing that has received a good polishing. A lot of under the hood stuff had to go on to make a #! like alternative that uses current Debian Jessie functionality. If you look at the way things are accomplished in #!, you will see stuff that is considered outmoded in current Debian stable. For instance, the logout script used to use dbus calls for all the different logout options. It has been updated to use current systemd calls. I don't remember specifically but I think it also can fall back to the old dbus calls if you are using the sysvinit shim.

The point is, there are numerous small tweaks and fixes going on that may not be immediately apparent but had to be done in order to bring a #!-like system current. I understand that it may be difficult to go through all the development threads and see all the small tweaks and changes, so I have to ask you to trust that both developers and forum members giving feedback have put a lot of thought and effort into making BunsenLabs a great Linux experience.

See, we could have just made a #! clone such as so many are doing and been done with it. However, the majority of us felt like we needed to push the envelope some and see what ways we could improve on the #! experience.

Excellent response.


Linux User #586672
Come and Die -- Kyle Idleman

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#15 2015-07-02 11:51:37

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

Colossal_Crunch wrote:

So what would make someone want to use BunsenLabs instead of Crunchbang? I mean up until Crunchbang stops recieving security updates.

That's actually quite easy to answer. It would be someone without the skills or the will to do whatever is needed to upgrade to Jessie, and fix whatever isn't functional anymore. And let's face it, Bunsen will not be ready with "Hydrogen" until "Wheezy" is no longer supported as "Oldstable".

Also, Bunsen are in some ways adding some elements that will make it more hackable for users of a certain skill-level, but more confusing and harder to understand for others. Things like being able to replace the file-manager or the text-editor without having to rewrite several others scripts that depends on that app. Things like this are good for skilled users, but confusing to others.

Personally I feel, that CrunchBang was more user-friendly. It didn't invite to change other things than the appearance, while Bunsen invites you to change a lot of other things. And Bunsen isn't as transparent as CrunchBang was.

In my mind, they have added just a bit to much, but that's a matter of taste. I like to keep it very simple. The more you do to hold peoples hands, the more complex it actually gets.

Last edited by spacex (2015-07-02 11:52:07)


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#16 2015-07-02 13:06:38

Colossal_Crunch
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2015-05-06
Posts: 154

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

Thanks everyone for helping me to understand what BunsenLabs is all about.  big_smile

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#17 2015-07-02 14:34:54

tynman
Member
From: Edmonton, Canada
Registered: 2015-04-26
Posts: 22

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

spacex wrote:

... let's face it, Bunsen will not be ready with "Hydrogen" until "Wheezy" is no longer supported as "Oldstable".

Is this true? I had understood Bunsenlabs-Hydrogen will be released as soon as it is good and ready. (And what happens to non-Jessie versions of Debian is not relevant to when Hydrogen will be released.)

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#18 2015-07-02 16:29:41

MsMattie
#! Member
From: Rocky Mountains
Registered: 2013-11-30
Posts: 55

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

spacex wrote:

In my mind, they have added just a bit to much, but that's a matter of taste. I like to keep it very simple. The more you do to hold peoples hands, the more complex it actually gets.

This has long been my opinion on Microsoft products. That in their efforts to dumb-it-down, they bloated everything and made all of it more obscure...

Last edited by MsMattie (2015-07-02 16:31:08)


Linux in the backwoods of the Rocky Mountains...

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#19 2015-07-02 17:57:37

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

tynman wrote:
spacex wrote:

... let's face it, Bunsen will not be ready with "Hydrogen" until "Wheezy" is no longer supported as "Oldstable".

Is this true?

NO!

I had understood Bunsenlabs-Hydrogen will be released as soon as it is good and ready. (And what happens to non-Jessie versions of Debian is not relevant to when Hydrogen will be released.)

That is correct.  wink


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#20 2015-07-02 23:22:12

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

Sector11 wrote:
tynman wrote:
spacex wrote:

... let's face it, Bunsen will not be ready with "Hydrogen" until "Wheezy" is no longer supported as "Oldstable".

Is this true?

NO!

Being at sub-alpha state now, it has to be true. I have to add that when I talk about being ready, then I'm not talking about having a working netinstall. But a finished bug-free live-iso made with live-build. Also, I should have been more precise. It probably will be ready before Wheezy isn't supported anymore, but not with a very big margin. its' not like the finished live-iso is right around the corner. My estimate, guesswork of course. 4-5 months away?


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#21 2015-07-02 23:52:06

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

wheatly ~ % whatis BunsenLabs
BunsenLabs: nothing appropriate.

couldn't resist  8o

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#22 2015-07-03 00:04:24

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

MsMattie wrote:
spacex wrote:

In my mind, they have added just a bit to much, but that's a matter of taste. I like to keep it very simple. The more you do to hold peoples hands, the more complex it actually gets.

This has long been my opinion on Microsoft products. That in their efforts to dumb-it-down, they bloated everything and made all of it more obscure...

Yes, that's kind of why I migrated from Windows to Linux in the first place. Bunsen isn't quite there, but that's the bad thing about a team vs. a one man project. There tends to come up too many ideas, to much creativity, and everyone has to put their mark on it. There is definitively 2-3 things I would have dropped if it was my project, but I'm quite restrictive as far as new additions are concerned. There has to be a really really good reason to implement them. I will die by K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid).

But I'm not in the target-group for Bunsen, because people like me do it themselves. i'm still interested in Bunsen though, as I can get ideas from the project, and as far as the visual elements are concerned, then Bunsen is top notch. That's where I'm lacking myself: I'm no designer lol


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#23 2015-07-03 00:24:17

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

^ @spacex To be honest, I agree with you about the tendency to add just a bit too much. Of course each of us involved in the development process has our own preferences & priorities, but not getting 100% your own way is what a team effort is all about I guess.

Cutting down to the minimum can get surprisingly tricky too, though, and end up with something a bit cludgy and ugly. It's simpler to "if in doubt, put it in" and that's how so much bloat creeps in of course...


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#24 2015-07-03 02:28:45

userx-bw
#! Die Hard
From: stuck in an unknown reality
Registered: 2013-11-19
Posts: 735

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

64-bit Waldorf

BitTorrent
Approx. Size: 739M

that only took me 20 minutes to configure my hard drive partitions than install it
just installing  < > Debian takes longer to do just the same  ~
I don't know about most people but I really don't like having to relive that Windows experience when installing an OS. taking way too long to get it up and running.
personally  don't mind installing other programs afterwords.
it needs to be stripped down and just the bare mim along with the BL flare added.
FATDOG Linux I know it is a usb live Linux ~ but run it. that thing has everything needed to run a linuxbox.  root apps as well as user apps it needs to have a good over all OS.

just saying smile


"How can you learn how to fix it, if you don't break it first? :8
"the only way to get away with murder is - by killing time" swp 1997  8o
"A computer is only as smart as the person using it"
"Just plug it in and see if it blows up, if not then take it apart and figure out how it works."

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#25 2015-07-03 06:33:56

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: What is BunsenLabs?

spacex wrote:

It probably will be ready before Wheezy isn't supported anymore, but not with a very big margin

You do know that wheezy is supported until May 2018, right?

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