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#1 2015-03-26 21:57:22

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

Reviewing bunsen-exit on github, I notice the transformation from cb-exit is hardwired to use systemctl from systemd.  While I understand and support BunsenLabs using the Debian default systemd, I think BL should be init agnostic.

Debian Jessie itself is init agnostic; there are three possible init systems systemd, sysvinit and upstart.  Systemd is merely the default.  XFCE is designed to be init agnostic and accommodates all three init systems.  LXDE (the other openbox DE) is designed to be init agnostic and cooperates with all three init systems.  And so should BL.  There is nothing about the BL foundation (openbox, tint2, conky, obmenu, obconf, lxappearance...) that requires systemd.  The BL scripts should not assume systemd is the init system.

Implementation notes for bunsen-exit: a quick test on LMDE2 Betsy RC (jessie without systemd) indicates the existing cb-exit dbus-send commands remain usable for sysvinit.

Last edited by cpoakes (2015-03-26 22:05:37)


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#2 2015-03-26 22:11:42

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

+1
I did bring this issue up:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 92#p421892
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 69#p421969

But apparently:

johnraff wrote:

I don't think bl-exit should have to cater to the users who have "chosen not to use systemd" because they're likely to be the kind of people who can easily edit bl-exit to add whatever commands they like.

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 06#p422006

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#3 2015-03-27 01:02:40

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

^Thanks for the links.

Reading those posts, the objections concern early misconceptions about our requirements or systemd:

Gnome won't run without it
systemd-shim doesn't work
removing systemd is too hard
removing systemd breaks Debian

First off, this ain't Gnome, we are running OB/tint2 and simple apps - GTK3 works just fine.  Second, Linux Mint LMDE2 Betsy is providing jessie sans systemd using sysvinit and the systemd-shim; it works and it doesn't break Debian. (Clem LeFebre is not a fool).  Third, there are clear online instructions for replacing stock jessie systemd with sysv with a single apt-get remove, apt-get install and an optional pinning.  Hell, without pinning the changes can even be made using synaptic. 

johnraff wrote:

I don't think bl-exit should have to cater to the users who have "chosen not to use systemd" because they're likely to be the kind of people who can easily edit bl-exit to add whatever commands they like.

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 06#p422006

I think this position should be reconsidered.   Let me (respectfully) paraphrase with neutral language:

johnraff (paraphrased) wrote:

I don't think bl-exit should accommodate users of other init systems because they can easily edit bl-exit to add whatever commands they like.

A false assumption.  Some of us can and do roll our own, but there are plenty of others comfortable with apt-get that don't know a lick of python.  Users of other valid init systems (sysvinit or upstart) should not be forced to learn a new programming language and edit a script, especially if the reason is simply developer bias for systemd.  Why artifically limit the user?  Shouldn't BL provide the broadest possible compatibility with debian packages?  We are using their repos after all.

Last edited by cpoakes (2015-03-27 01:06:54)


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#4 2015-03-27 02:08:18

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

To be fair, you don't need to know any python - it is just a case of substituting one bash command with another. I also have a zenity dialog for the bash commands, and a yad one. There are many ways of skinning this particular cat.

Respectfully, do you think that anyone who knows the difference between various init systems, and has a strong enough preference for one, also doesn't know any bash?

Last edited by damo (2015-03-27 02:08:49)


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#5 2015-03-27 02:51:42

boromeus
#! Junkie
From: BG (SRB)
Registered: 2010-09-12
Posts: 313

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

IMHO you could even put that other line in the exit script, just commented out. That way a potential tweaker who replaces systemd with whatever-they-prefer-instead has to delete one # an put another one somewhere else.

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#6 2015-03-27 03:44:32

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

Here ya go. And without the HowTo header, and tests, there could be less than 20 LOC for a gui exit dialog. No python, and only 3 slightly different commands for the init choice.

#! /bin/bash
#
# Super simple logout/shutdown/reconfigure yad dialog
# by <damo> October 2014
#
# If you don't have yad you can get it from http://sourceforge.net/projects/yad-dialog/
# Or get a deb package from http://pkgs.org/download/yad and install with dpkg -i
#
#----------------------------------------------------------------
# SYSVINIT USERS: add yourself to sudoers for shutdown/reboot
# So edit sudoers with "sudo visudo", and add
#
#  ALL   ALL=NOPASSWD:/sbin/reboot
#  ALL   ALL=NOPASSWD:/sbin/poweroff
#----------------------------------------------------------------
#  SYSTEMD USERS: "polkit is necessary for power management as an 
# unprivileged user. If you are in a local systemd-logind user session
# and no other session is active, the following commands will work
# without root privileges. If not (for example, because another user
# is logged into a tty), systemd will automatically ask you for the
# root password"
#
# If you aren't using polkit then add yourself to sudoers for shutdown/halt/reboot
# Edit sudoers with "sudo visudo", and add
#
# ALL   ALL=NOPASSWD: /usr/bin/systemctl poweroff,/usr/bin/systemctl halt,/usr/bin/systemctl reboot
#----------------------------------------------------------------

# See if yad dialog is installed
TESTYAD=`which yad`
TEXT="You need to install YAD dialog.\nIt is available from http://sourceforge.net/projects/yad-dialog.\nCompile from source, or download a deb package and use dpkg -i"

if [ "$TESTYAD" = "" ];then
    zenity --warning --text="$TEXT"
    exit 0
fi

dialog=$(yad --undecorated --center --on-top\
    --text="  Shutdown ${USER}'s System?"\
    --text-align=center\
    --button="gtk-cancel:1" \
    --button="Power Off":2 \
    --button="Reboot":3 \
    --button="Logout":4 \
    --button="Suspend":5 \
    --button="Reconfig":6 \
    )
ret=$?

# Comment/Uncomment the case stanza depending if you use sysvinit/systemd

#case $ret in
    #1) exit 0;;
    #2) cmd="sudo /sbin/poweroff";;
    #3) cmd="sudo /sbin/reboot" ;;
    #4) cmd="openbox --exit";;
    #5) cmd="dbus-send --system --print-reply --dest=\"org.freedesktop.UPower\" /org/freedesktop/UPower org.freedesktop.UPower.Suspend";;
    #6) cmd="openbox --reconfigure";;
    #*) exit 1;;
#esac

case $ret in
    1) exit 0;;
    2) cmd="systemctl poweroff";;
    3) cmd="systemctl reboot" ;;
    4) cmd="openbox --exit";;
    5) cmd="systemctl suspend";;
    6) cmd="openbox --reconfigure";;
    *) exit 1;;
esac

eval exec $cmd

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#7 2015-03-27 06:02:24

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

OK I'll own up here. I don't know a lick of Python either.
It was still easy to look through that script, find the system calls and replace the dbus commands with systemctl ones. If there was a single command that worked on all init systems and did not require the editing of sudoers, then for sure  I would recommend we use it.

Meanwhile, I still stand by my claim that the number of users who want to use something other than the Debian default systemd but who would be unable to edit bl-exit, or use an alternative, is extremely small.

( I suppose in the future it might not be totally out of the question to provide a bunsen-exit-sysvinit package. Not a high priority though. )


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#8 2015-03-27 07:26:31

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 967
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

Nice Damo! I was going to suggest something similar, but I wouldn't have been able to produce the code so easily.

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#9 2015-03-27 07:33:23

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

orionthehunter wrote:

Nice Damo! I was going to suggest something similar, but I wouldn't have been able to produce the code so easily.

I've got it as a zenity script as well somewhere....


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#10 2015-03-27 07:38:21

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

So how would that work for users not in the "sudo" group?

I never put Mrs. Head_on_a_Stick in the "sudo" group.

LMDE Betsy has chosen to use SysVinit as the default PID1 to attract all the traditional Debian users who do not like systemd; BunsenLabs risks alienating these users.

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#11 2015-03-27 10:18:33

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

Thanks for the specific question damo.  Respectfully, I do think users are able to select and enable an alternate init system without knowing bash or how to edit or even recognize the system commands within a python script. Why?  There is discussion and disagreement about init systems aplenty to 1) inspire users to see for themselves, and 2) follow the simplified how-tos (including those within the debian's own forum) to make it happen from the command line without knowing a lick of bash or python.

I do think systemd makes the most sense for most but not all desktop scenarios.  I think it is equally important for experienced and inexperienced users to be able to experiment and come to their own conclusion.  For someone venturing out of their comfort zone to use the command line to add/remove/pin packages for the first time, why introduce the additional hurdle of fixing a "broken" script?  For experienced users, what better way to demonstrate BunsenLabs is inclusive of the entire Debian community and non-partisan in the systemd rift.  XFCE and LXDE have made this commitment and so should we. 

Next issue... hold on discussing implementation details!  Set the design goals first, such as:

Accommodate any init system.
Use only standard commands already installed with the init system.
Use no special permissions or privileges (no /etc/sudoers modifications).
Use a bash or python script.

Then consider implementation details.  These goals can be accomplished with with sysvinit/upstart compatible dbus-send commands for shutdown, reboot, and suspend.  (See python snippet below if you want details). 

@johnraff:  Why should there be a single command for each exit action?  An if else statement may be less elegant, but without actually consulting the sources, I'll wager XFCE and LXDE cannot and do not handle the same problem with a single command or system call.  They do not use a special sysv package.  And thanks for clarifying your python capabilities; from your other apparent expertise I incorrectly assumed this included python.

It appears there are also concerns about developer time and expertise.  If I can convince (or already have convinced) the dev team that broad init support makes sense, I volunteer to start with the existing python script to implement the aforementioned design.  Estimated 5-15 additional lines of python.


Python example snippet (*corrected from wheezy compatible to jessie compatible dbus-send commands):

if detect_systemd == True :
    self.shutdown.command = 'systemctl shutdown'
    self.reboot.command = 'systemctl reboot'
    self.suspend.command = 'systemctl suspend'   
else:
    self.suspend.command = "dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=org.freedesktop.login1 /org/freedesktop/login1 org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.Suspend boolean:true"
    self.reboot.command = "dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=org.freedesktop.login1 /org/freedesktop/login1 org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.Reboot boolean:true"
    self.shutdown.command = "dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=org.freedesktop.login1 /org/freedesktop/login1 org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.PowerOff boolean:true"

Last edited by cpoakes (2015-03-28 03:17:46)


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#12 2015-03-27 10:48:45

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

+1 on being init agnostic. It indeed should not be too much work to incorporate in bl-exit.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#13 2015-03-27 23:34:07

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

I don't agree. It will become pretty much impossible to have a well-functional non-systemd system in Debian OVER TIME.  The systemd-haters should really cut their losses short and move ahead to Devuan, and help them develop the non-systemd future there.

I'm just saying it as it is. It's perfectly fine to run Debian with Sysvinit now. But it won't be in a couple of years, The ship has sailed, the train has left the station. Like it or not, and get over it. Because, in the end, you will have to surrender. Why not do it now, and save us all a lot of trouble, There are even still people that resists UEFI and GPT. Stop being so conservative, and get on the train, instead of trying to slow it down with a lasso. It won't work.


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#14 2015-03-28 00:25:46

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

Just for the record: I'm not a systemd hater. I use it myself.

That said, supporting another (still relatively popular and used) init system in bl-exit makes sense, considering how little of a change it is to the existing script. Besides bl-exit, does any of our other scripts need changes to be init-agnostic?


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#15 2015-03-28 01:00:40

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

@ Unia

Sure, it's no problem to do it. But as Debian wants to get as many as possible over on systemd as soon as possible, it doesn't make any sense to me to assist people in staying behind the development in Debian. Being on another init-system will eventually get so limiting in regards to what apps you are able to use, that providing users with this option is just to ask for a lot of support-questions. NOBODY should stay on SysVinit unless they have the skill and knowledge to do it on their own. And the users that are able to do it on their own, doesn't need Bunsen to be Init-agnostic.

In fact, I think we should advice against using any other init-system than Systemd. Simply because it will require more and more skills to do any alternative successfully. But that's just my opinion. It's perfectly fine to disagree smile

Last edited by spacex (2015-03-28 01:01:29)


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#16 2015-03-28 01:12:06

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

spacex wrote:

Being on another init-system will eventually get so limiting in regards to what apps you are able to use

Debian jessie provides a GRUB menu entry for using SysVinit as PID1 whilst keeping systemd and the associated libraries on the machine thus allowing any and all programs to be used.

Which programs have you found to be non-functional in Debian jessie when using the SysVinit GRUB menu option?

These should be reported on the Debian bug tracker.

Debian will continue to develop the systemd-shim throughout the lifetime of jessie and possibly beyond.
https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd

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#17 2015-03-28 01:15:07

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

spacex wrote:

...providing users with this option is just to ask for a lot of support-questions. NOBODY should stay on SysVinit unless they have the skill and knowledge to do it on their own. And the users that are able to do it on their own, doesn't need Bunsen to be Init-agnostic.

Quite.

btw XFCE and LXDE are in a different category altogether from our modest little community. Even so, do they really provide support for all init options? How about Mint DE? Do they support systemd?


John
--------------------
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#18 2015-03-28 01:27:00

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

johnraff wrote:

btw XFCE and LXDE are in a different category altogether from our modest little community. Even so, do they really provide support for all init options? How about Mint DE? Do they support systemd?

Both Debian XFCE & LXDE provide the GRUB menu option for SysVinit -- it is a modification to the GRUB scripts that simply adds "init=/lib/sysvinit/init" as a kernel parameter.

I'm downloading the LMDE Betsy ISO now, I'll get back to you...

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#19 2015-03-28 02:25:33

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

Right, as stock LMDE Betsy runs pure SysVinit but changing over to systemd just needs:

# apt-get install systemd-sysv

I'll do a hard drive install tomorrow to see if this causes any problems.

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#20 2015-03-28 03:18:25

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

I said that you were fine with SysVinit now. But you won't be two years from now.

As a illustration. From Sparky LXDE,

"‘network-manager-gnome’ depends of ‘network-manager’ which depends of ‘libpam-systemd’, which depends of ‘systemd’. So upgrading ‘network-manager-gnome’ will install ‘systemd’ as default."

If you then remove systemd, you will remove network-manager with it. The fix? Easy, just install systemd-sysv ... But that's the kind of fix that are beyond unskilled users. They won't understand why they cant logout or shutdown. They will never think of the fix,connect it to SysVinit or find the solution by googling. They will ask the same questions over and over again....

And this is just the beginning... The same thing will happen wit lightdm, synaptic, gdebi and so on.... Just you wait and see smile


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#21 2015-03-28 03:18:26

bjmuirhead
#! Member
Registered: 2013-11-26
Posts: 57
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

I have neither the knowledge nor the experience of most of you, but I would like to make a comment about this debate.

Background:
Originally I dist-upgraded to Jessie, and it continued to use the old init system... I could tell just because there were no systemd messages at boot.

I then did a clean netinstall of jessie, following advice from johnraff's  wally cheat sheet. I then installed all the programmes I normally use...

The question for me is whether I noticed any difference in the way the machine runs, and the answer is yes:
Not only are there what almost seem to be endless systemd error messages at boot, but the whole work process seems slower
Prior speed starting lyx or libreoffice has now slowed to an almost Windows crawl. I mean simply that it takes lyx, which is what I use most, almost 10 seconds to start.  (same computer on Waldorf: under 1 second.) Once it has started once, it is undera second again if closed and restarted. Just like windows, bless'em

I don't know if this is due to systemd issues, but.... I already  have decided to go with Devuan when they make their first release.

To be init agnostic, therefore, seems to me to be a very good idea, as I will bunsenify it, and I can imagine many other people doing something similar with their chosen debian spin

As I said, this is a view based on the experience of using the two different init systems, not based on knowledge of programming or of either init system. Perhaps the differences I am noticing are not a result of systemd dependencies, but the change sure was sudden, and of a type I have not previously noticed with debian or #!

In any event, I think a lot of people will make decisions like this based on experience rather than knowledge, and for the sake of all of us non-programmers (etc),  init agnosticism seems like a good idea. (It isn't a matter of the less knowledge the less we do, but the bigger mistakes we make. wink )

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#22 2015-03-28 03:36:40

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

bjmuirhead wrote:

I have neither the knowledge nor the experience of most of you, but I would like to make a comment about this debate.

Background:
Originally I dist-upgraded to Jessie, and it continued to use the old init system... I could tell just because there were no systemd messages at boot.

I then did a clean netinstall of jessie, following advice from johnraff's  wally cheat sheet. I then installed all the programmes I normally use...

The question for me is whether I noticed any difference in the way the machine runs, and the answer is yes:
Not only are there what almost seem to be endless systemd error messages at boot, but the whole work process seems slower
Prior speed starting lyx or libreoffice has now slowed to an almost Windows crawl. I mean simply that it takes lyx, which is what I use most, almost 10 seconds to start.  (same computer on Waldorf: under 1 second.) Once it has started once, it is undera second again if closed and restarted. Just like windows, bless'em

I don't know if this is due to systemd issues, but.... I already  have decided to go with Devuan when they make their first release.

To be init agnostic, therefore, seems to me to be a very good idea, as I will bunsenify it, and I can imagine many other people doing something similar with their chosen debian spin

As I said, this is a view based on the experience of using the two different init systems, not based on knowledge of programming or of either init system. Perhaps the differences I am noticing are not a result of systemd dependencies, but the change sure was sudden, and of a type I have not previously noticed with debian or #!

In any event, I think a lot of people will make decisions like this based on experience rather than knowledge, and for the sake of all of us non-programmers (etc),  init agnosticism seems like a good idea. (It isn't a matter of the less knowledge the less we do, but the bigger mistakes we make. ;) )

Sure, some of those issues could be related to systemd. But they can be fixed. Personally, I'm cold-booting in 5-6 seconds, every program open instantly, and shutdown is instant. For me, systemd improves absolutely  everything.

John Raff is a skilled dude. But perhaps he has been a bit to minimalistic with his project. That's where the depends come in to play. They are often needed to get full functionality. I haven't tried Wally myself, so I can't really have an opinion on it. But I do have an opinion on "--no-install-recommends*, and that opinion is as this. Never use it unless you are skilled enought to cherrypick the recommends that you actually need....

Anyway. Devuan seems to have a slow start. I'm not convinced that they ever will get there...


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#23 2015-03-28 04:13:20

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

If you are getting numerous systemd error message, then those could potentially slow your boot times considerably. When using systemd it is useful to know a few commands to start off with:

systemd-analyze blame
systemctl
systemctl --all
systemctl list-unit-files

It is also useful to know how to start/stop/disable and mask uneeded or conflicting services. Systemd comes with alot of tools under the hood to help people manage their systems. If you are using a read-ahead daemon, they can slow boots and also slow the first start of a program. After that programs usually pop right up. What you described to me sounds like normal behavior with read-ahead. Also, add quiet to your kernel options to cut down on the text spam at boot. Console output can slow boots considerably.

And I will back SpaceX up on the recommends deal. I have bumped into some core functionality that I just missed without recommends turned on. Likely BunsenLabs is missing some as well, though probably less than what I am doing for myself, as I am using a hard no-recommend rule. .xsession-errors and journald have been fantastic at helping me sort what all I missed, however. Journald is very informative if you are willing to spend some time reading some of its more verbose output.

I just want to say this about systemd, and this is a general observation, not aimed at any one. Just try to learn it before you dog it. Truthfully, I "Get" systemd much better than I do polkit, which is also needed to run the exit script. And the worst part is, once the version current in arch hits debian, we will get to do polkit rules in javascript. Why? I really have no idea.

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#24 2015-03-28 05:34:16

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

spacex wrote:

I don't agree. It will become pretty much impossible to have a well-functional non-systemd system in Debian OVER TIME.  The systemd-haters should really cut their losses short and move ahead to Devuan, and help them develop the non-systemd future there.

I'm just saying it as it is. It's perfectly fine to run Debian with Sysvinit now. But it won't be in a couple of years, The ship has sailed, the train has left the station. Like it or not, and get over it. Because, in the end, you will have to surrender. Why not do it now, and save us all a lot of trouble, There are even still people that resists UEFI and GPT. Stop being so conservative, and get on the train, instead of trying to slow it down with a lasso. It won't work.

Most jessie packages are compatible with all init systems and once it goes stable will remain so for the next three years.  As Debian stable, Jessie and therefore BL are by definition conservative so telling users to stop being conservative is an oxymoron.  BL is not a rolling distro based on sid or testing.

spacex wrote:

Sure, it's no problem to do it. But as Debian wants to get as many as possible over on systemd as soon as possible, it doesn't make any sense to me to assist people in staying behind the development in Debian...)

Debian has merely chosen systemd as the default, sysv and upstart are not deprecated.  Please direct me to the Debian policy directing users to adopt systemd ASAP.

Last edited by cpoakes (2015-03-28 05:38:30)


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#25 2015-03-28 06:09:57

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: BunsenLabs should be init agnostic

I want us to get past the systemd rift because we share more values than differences.  Thus far telling users to "get over it" has not made that happen.  If anything, it has contributed to fracturing the community further.  If the old strategy isn't working, isn't it time to try something else?

I am quite content for Bunsen to come configured with systemd, to recommend systemd, and even refer sysv/upstart support questions upstream to the Debian forums.  But exactly how does making BL init agnostic create additional application support problems?  Please share your nightmare support scenario. 

I imagine something like this:  "I cannot install Nautilus" turns out to be a systemd apt-pinning problem.  In current forum etiquette, someone who uses sysv will offer a solution, someone else will tell them to use systemd and get over it, someone else will refer them to Debian forums, or maybe no one will respond at all.  How will the report rate or problem resolution be any different if the BL scripts are agnostic?  Worse still, when bl-exit breaks for sysvinit users this is likely to create its own problem report.

When it comes down to it, upstart, systemd, and sysvinit are all Debian supported packages. Their incompatibilities are managed by apt.  When a sysv-based user wants a systemd dependent application, they cannot unless and until they accept and install systemd.  If you want Nautilus, you either accept and install systemd or look for an alternative like Thunar.  Isn't this the natural path to migrating resistant/unconvinced users to systemd?


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