SEARCH

Enter your search query in the box above ^, or use the forum search tool.

You are not logged in.

#1 2015-03-24 09:20:34

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

(EDITED - 19 April 2015:  I have just received confirmation that corenominal, the former developer of CrunchBang and the administrator of this forum, is happy to keep the lights on here indefinitely.  With this in mind, I recommend anyone who wants to contribute to the maintenance of the forum to use the ᴅᴏɴᴀᴛᴇ link in the forum's top menu.)

The other moderators have recently been nagging me to post a thread introducing your BunsenLabs Development Team, and have suggested I should also have a thread to keep track of what decisions have been made regarding BunsenLabs.  I figure it's good to have both in the same opening post, and to leave the thread open for community discussion (for now...)

The Development Team currently includes:
johnraff: pipemenus; the Wally clone of Waldorf in Debian Jessie
Sector11: Conky help
damo: artwork; GUI developer
hhh: UI theming
twoion: scripting; general development

Most of these brilliant people are also packaging their efforts for our Git repo...and I'm just sitting here trying to keep up with the goings-on here.  I'm basically the Contemplative Boss; I decide what goes in and what stays out.  I've also foolishly volunteered to do the Live ISO builds.

Many others here have also already made valuable contributions to BunsenLabs.  If you would like to be included in the Development Team, please PM me.


General decisions that have been made regarding BunsenLabs:

Any packages that we have in our repo will be limited to scripts (including pipemenus), artwork, and metapackages.  No compiled binaries of third-party applications; if a compiled binary for {most-favorite-application} isn't available in Debian, then it won't be available in BunsenLabs, and there will never be newer versions of binaries in the BunsenLabs repo.  Waldorf included a version of Tint2 that, while Wheezy was still Testing, was newer than the Debian package, and this became a problem during the DDoS Attack of 2013.  This convinced me that including such binaries in the CrunchBang repo was a bad idea; therefore, there will be no binaries in Waldorf, full stop.  It isn't just a matter of maintaining the binaries, it's a matter of preventing borkage.

Live ISO images of BunsenLabs based on Debian Stable will be named after chemical elements in order of their atomic number, beginning with Hydrogen, which will be based on Jessie.  We will make every effort to build new Live ISO images with each point release of Debian Stable.

Whether we have Live Builds of BunsenLabs based on Debian Testing and/or Unstable is still a matter for discussion.

Debian Jessie is to have systemd; therefore, BunsenLabs Hydrogen is to have systemd.  If/when Debian switches from Xorg to Wayland, so will BunsenLabs.  Where Debian leads, BunsenLabs will follow.  Haters gonna hate.

BunsenLabs will make every effort to maintain a user interface and user experience similar to what made CrunchBang so wonderful, including Openbox, mostly-gray default artwork and themes, useful pipemenus, Tint2, a simple, informative default Conky, and keyboard shortcuts for all the things.

We will include a first-run update script similar to cb-welcome, but tweaked to thwart the problems that have been encountered in the past due to Debian's repo redirector occasionally failing to find an appropriate mirror.  The script will also throw up a warning message (only the first time it runs) advising against certain risky behaviors like running with scissors, upgrading libc6, adding Ubuntu PPAs, etc.

We're still working on our list of default applications for BunsenLabs.  Some of these, like the web browser and terminal emulator, are academic because of virtual packages like x-terminal-emulator and x-www-browser, but others have to be hard-coded into ~/.config/openbox/rc.xml.  So far, we have decided on:

text editor: Geany
image viewer: Mirage
web browser: Iceweasel
notification daemon: xfce4-notifyd
systray volume applet: Volti
media player: vlc

Terminator is a frontrunner for a terminal editor; some love the paned view it offers, but others consider it needless bloat.  Another favorite around here is urxvt (rxvt-unicode) because of its full Unicode support and themability.

We need to narrow down our choices for other default applications.

Last edited by pvsage (2015-04-19 20:05:48)

Offline

Help fund CrunchBang, donate to the project!

#2 2015-03-24 12:16:31

sigmund
New Member
Registered: 2015-02-22
Posts: 4

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Thanks for the update @pvsage! Also, thanks to those contributing their time and skills to making this project successful. For those of us who lack such skills, will there (at some point) be an opportunity to make donations to help the Bunsen Labs development process? I'd imagine that migrating the website, forums, etc. will all incur costs, and it would be nice to send a beer/coffee your way...

Offline

#3 2015-03-24 12:34:07

Hy
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2012-02-18
Posts: 112

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Thanks for the update! Things seem to be coming along very nicely! smile


~ Wait - what? ~

Offline

#4 2015-03-24 14:16:45

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

@ pvsage

Nagging?  Well, OK, if you say so. ... Nice post thank you.

But be honest:

pvsage wrote:

I'm basically the Contemplative Boss; I decide what goes in and what stays out.

This we kinda pushed on you, because we the mods, felt you were the best choice.

@ all

And it should be noted that anyone can make a pitch for their favourite app to be a default or at least included.  But it's the Dev Team and ultimately pvsage that has the final word.  Someone has to do it, we can't have 500 users and 23 different text editors installed.

Your "defaults" are only a short:

sudo apt-get remove old_app-name
sudo apt-get install new_app-name

away


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

#5 2015-03-24 17:59:44

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Thanks for the post, pvsage.

To clarify one point, you mean no recompiled binaries of existing packages in Debian, and not a ban on any deb packages, right? I ask because we already have deb packages on GitHub, as you mentioned, and are currently discussing having a single bunsen-themes.deb that would install the default themes. I'd assume we'd also have one for the default wallpapers.

re: default applications, we're sticking with xfce4-notifyd for notifications? Volti is the leading candidate for a volume applet, and vlc for the default media player? Is this the thread for these questions?

Thanks again, oh Contemplative One!

-edit- I see default packages being discussed in johnraff's metapackage thread...
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=39170

Last edited by hhh (2015-03-24 18:03:38)


bunsenlabs     8)     forum mod squad

Offline

#6 2015-03-24 18:22:29

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

hhh wrote:

Thanks again, oh Contemplative One!

smile love it.

We taken to calling the Contemplative One; TheSage.  wink


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

#7 2015-03-24 18:54:09

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

hhh wrote:

Thanks for the post, pvsage.

To clarify one point, you mean no recompiled binaries of existing packages in Debian, and not a ban on any deb packages, right? I ask because we already have deb packages on GitHub, as you mentioned, and are currently discussing having a single bunsen-themes.deb that would install the default themes. I'd assume we'd also have one for the default wallpapers.

Yes, no recompiled binaries of existing Debian packages, but also no separately compiled binaries of applications that are not available in Debian.  For example, if somebody here really wanted Midori in BunsenLabs Hydrogen, he'd have to download it from the midori-browser website.  Of course we need .deb packages for our scripts and artwork, but .deb packages are basically just tarballs.  For now, I'm taking the position that scripts in our packages should remain cleartext; if anything needs to be compiled because a script runs too slow for somebody/everybody, then we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.

re: default applications, we're sticking with xfce4-notifyd for notifications? Volti is the leading candidate for a volume applet, and vlc for the default media player? Is this the thread for these questions?

Yea on all counts; I'm adding these to the "has been decided" list above.

Offline

#8 2015-03-24 19:09:49

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Thanks. Be aware that there is a long ignored bug in xfce4-notifyd that can be a pain if you're on a laptop...
https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7928


bunsenlabs     8)     forum mod squad

Offline

#9 2015-03-24 19:15:56

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

@pvsage

How about a textfile in https://github.com/BunsenLabs/bunsen-docs, with a list of the proposed default applications? Easy for you to add to as things arise, and easy for me and others to follow (and prepare menu.xml, rc.xml, pipemenus etc).

This might also save some time in the future, for preparing documentation.


BunsenLabs Group on deviantArt
damo's gallery on deviantArt
Openbox themes
Forum Moderator smile

Offline

#10 2015-03-25 01:10:21

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

^I'm thinking more and more that user environment variables, set in .xsessionrc, might be a way out of this.

_BUNSEN_TEXT_EDITOR=geany
export _BUNSEN_TEXT_EDITOR

That would mean only one place to edit - for us now or for the user later.

...an alternative could be symlinks in ~/bin , like ~/bin/bl-editor pointing to /usr/bin/geany and so on. A little bit messier to edit perhaps.

...it's also not impossible to invent new Debian alternatives like "bunsen-text-editor" and add apps to them.
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 10#p308510
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1501719

Last edited by johnraff (2015-03-26 05:52:58)


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

Offline

#11 2015-03-29 11:34:58

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

BTW Dillo may be lightweight but it is hoooorrrrible! And pages aren't displaying properly for me in a fresh install  sad

Last edited by damo (2015-03-29 11:35:36)


BunsenLabs Group on deviantArt
damo's gallery on deviantArt
Openbox themes
Forum Moderator smile

Offline

#12 2015-03-29 14:18:10

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

^+1

·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

#13 2015-03-30 01:49:01

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Hey what is it with you guys and Dillo? What's horrible? No Javascript, no Flash, no CSS (you have to disable it), it's perfection!!

...I jest slightly, but for a quick google it can't be beat - or something else you might want to try, navigate to /usr/share/doc and see if there's any faster way to browse installed docs (also views .tar.gz files).

Yes, for some badly designed web pages you have to scroll down through navigation stuff before you get to the real content (not good for SEO btw) but I use Dillo every day, even though Iceweasel is my standard browser for "normal" web use. Dillo is FAST, that's the only point. If your browser isn't up and running, you don't have to wait for some quick result.

Anyway, my suggestion to add Dillo to a "base install" instead of Iceweasel or Google Chrome is because:

  • It's just a placeholder. Sometimes while setting up an install you need access to the web, to look something up or navigate to a download page and get something.

  • Any other browser would be bigger, and still likely to be replaced anyway. Helps keep the .iso size down.

  • Think of it like installing Leafpad. Sometimes that's all you need.

  • Once a "better" browser is installed, you can remove Dillo, but it's not really taking up that much disk space.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

Offline

#14 2015-03-30 02:02:39

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

^ IMHO either links2 or w3m (with w3m-img installed) is better than Dillo for a real lightweight placeholder browser. smile

Last edited by pvsage (2015-03-30 02:30:59)

Offline

#15 2015-03-30 03:04:18

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Ummmm for us noobs you may  need a GUI web browser.  smile

List of Browsers


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

#16 2015-03-30 03:38:19

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

...weeeellll... I still think Dillo is the smallest, fastest GUI browser that's in the Debian repos, and pretty much bug-free, at least in my experience. ( Maybe feature-free too tongue )


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

Offline

#17 2015-03-30 05:20:37

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Sector11 wrote:

Ummmm for us noobs you may  need a GUI web browser.  smile

       -g     Run Links2 in graphics mode. If not given, Links2  will  run  in
              text  mode.   Running  in  graphics  mode means that Links2 will
              probe all compiled‐in graphics devices  and  run  on  the  first
              found. If none found, links2 will not run in graphics mode. This
              option works only if ‐‐enable‐graphics was given to ./configure.

Admittedly not as pretty as Dillo, but not by much.

Offline

#18 2015-03-30 05:50:04

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

I've been reminded of this:
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debi … cs.en.html
OK, so all .deb files are considered "binaries".  My mistake. :8  Semantics IMHO, but since BunsenLabs is to follow where Debian leads, Debian's definitions rule here as well.  This doesn't affect my position on recompiling any applications specifically for BunsenLabs; it just means I need to refer to our .deb packages as binaries.  So for clarification:

The only binaries in the BunsenLabs repos will contain scripts, config files, and artwork; no compiled executables.  If a script for e.g. a pipemenu runs so slow that it needs to be compiled to make it usable, we might bend this rule, but we still aren't going to host binary packages for third-party applications that aren't in the Debian repo (e.g. Midori, DeadbeeF are not available in Jessie).  We will, of course, continue to support users who want to use these applications by helping them find the safest means of getting them without breaking Debian in the process.

Last edited by pvsage (2015-03-30 05:52:12)

Offline

#19 2015-03-30 05:58:44

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

After purging each, and doing 'apt-get autoremove':

links2: After this operation, 5,640 kB of additional disk space will be used. 
dillo:  After this operation, 2,915 kB of additional disk space will be used.

And I think Dillo looks way prettier than 'links2 -g', but that's just one person's opinion...

If everyone really hates Dillo so much, I won't throw a sulk or anything if another small browser goes in bunsen-base. smile


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

Offline

#20 2015-03-30 06:56:06

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

johnraff wrote:

navigate to /usr/share/doc and see if there's any faster way to browse installed docs (also views .tar.gz files).

vim /usr/share/doc

tongue

Offline

#21 2015-03-30 07:24:04

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Quick comments about using a default lightweight browser like Dillo...

The first site I tried to use with Dillo was BunsenLabs github, which was an unpleasant experience trying to navigate.

Many new users trying BunsenLabs for the first time, and starting the browser, may say "If the rest of it is like this then it's not for me".

If the intention is to keep the size of an iso down, I can see the logic, otherwise why not Iceweasel/Chrome, which is what most users are used to?


BunsenLabs Group on deviantArt
damo's gallery on deviantArt
Openbox themes
Forum Moderator smile

Offline

#22 2015-03-30 07:36:54

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
vim /usr/share/doc

tongue

mad

OK dillo-haters... I loathe vim.

Anyway, is that really faster?


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

Offline

#23 2015-03-30 07:53:23

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

@damo I completely agree. I'm not talking about a standard BunsenLabs, or even a BunsenLabs-lite, this came up in the context of a "base" metapackage which would install the absolute minimum for a desktop setup. Leaf/Mousepad instead of Geany, no media player... This isn't even talking about fitting on a CD - while there's still a lot to be pared off the current apps list I'd have hoped it would be much less than that. (Perhaps impossible though.)

No new users would be expected to install bunsen-base and just that. Of course it would be hard to use. They'd install bunsen-standard which would pull in bunsen-base plus a lot more...

...including a "proper" browser, probably iceweasel.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

Offline

#24 2015-03-30 08:00:43

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

@johnraff

Thanks for the clarification - I guess I missed the point somewhere  hmm


BunsenLabs Group on deviantArt
damo's gallery on deviantArt
Openbox themes
Forum Moderator smile

Offline

Be excellent to each other!

#25 2015-03-30 12:53:51

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: BunsenLabs Development Team and current status

Tests are OOTB experiences.

I'm not a Dillo hater it's fast its light it's featureless ... but links2 and w3m are somewhat less for a
2015_03_30_09_24_28_1353x788_Sector11.jpg
"new user's first impression" level of quality I would think.

Unless of course we are aiming BL at the "most experienced level users".

Dillo vs Arora OOTB
2015_03_30_09_14_10_1920x1080_Sector11.jpg
Dillo - light fast (1K) .... Arora (4K) has a few more features at a cost of speed.
2015_03_30_09_14_58_1920x1080_Sector11.jpg
Dillo has a problem that Arora does not have with capt-damo's art page.

That said I do like what ohnonot says here: the internet is at out fingertips.  And damo and johns interchange

Something else to keep in mind: What first impression do we want to have for a new user have in the "Live" mode?

Personal opinion:

Aim for a "Live ISO" release with a nice feel to it, if it's more then a CD size so be it.  Once that up and running, then think of another "light" version with a fatter bl-welcome script.

I may be, and probably am, wrong here but once pvsage get the "live install" under his belt it 'might' be he can use the same idea, smaller list, to create a light version faster.


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB

Copyright © 2012 CrunchBang Linux.
Proudly powered by Debian. Hosted by Linode.
Debian is a registered trademark of Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
Server: acrobat

Debian Logo