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#1 2015-03-03 11:24:16

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Was thinking the other day that maybe the long term goal should be:

  • To create a desktop environment based on configured Openbox and the CrunchBang experience

  • To make this DE available as a vanilla upstream component that could therefore be used by Arch, Fedora, Ubuntu etc. (Before you say "ah but some packages aren't in distro X", dependencies are their problem)

  • We would only need to package for Debian and make the source code available. Packaging for other distributions can be done by others if they want/need it

  • To get this DE packaged in Debian

  • To get this DE available for non-free live images of Debian

This might seem like a lot of work but I think it would be the most correct and considerate way to work and the best way to satisfy the needs of a maximum number of those Linux users that need something like CB in the longer term.

I imagine a lot of the structural BunsenLabs work could feed into this.

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2015-03-03 12:06:40

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

This is the goal I've had in mind the whole time.  I have doubts (well, maybe only one doubt) about getting this into Debian any time soon, but this is mostly because, to my knowledge, we don't have anyone here who knows people who know people on the Debian Development teams.  I'm not even sure which development team would be the right one to approach first.

EDIT:  Aside from its own desktop-base and distrolets based on Debian, is Debian really considered "upstream" for anything?

Last edited by pvsage (2015-03-03 12:09:16)

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#3 2015-03-03 13:02:13

twoion
Emerald Caffeine
From: 星界
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Please explain to me, what are "non-free live images of Debian"?


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#4 2015-03-03 16:27:10

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

^This can be achieved in time. The first hurdle to overcome is an upstream package or set of packages. Debian is not really upstream. You are right. It is more of an integrator. In retail terms, a wholesaler.
^^This is a hypothetical image. I know there are images that include non-free and I know there are live images. I do not know if there are both.

Of course, one other possibility is to feed into the Tanglu project, which has similar aims but with desktops that are unkind to frail computers.

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#5 2015-03-03 16:32:49

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Live Build can integrate non-free packages. It just has to be setup that way. It will recognize non-free firmwares for both build-time and run-time, for instance. I have also installed a few non-free packages with it. Since most of the heavy lifting is done with apt/apt-get and dpkg, the same stuff applies. Just need to enable the repos.

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#6 2015-03-03 17:04:47

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

@pvsage - How are you getting on with this? Looking at the Waldorf packages, some appear to be in Debian anyway.

It would be ideal to get a maximum of packages into Debian already and then provide the remainder (if necessary) and the meta-package upstream. As far as I understand it with Debian, the main issues with packaging is that they won't take anything incompatible with their social contract and someone will need to maintain it. I would be interested in doing the packaging work but I will need to learn how to first. Let me have a look at how to do this and see if I have the skillz yet.

Off to watch this.

Last edited by intoCB (2015-03-03 17:07:59)

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#7 2015-03-03 17:43:09

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

twoion wrote:

Please explain to me, what are "non-free live images of Debian"?

Not available for jessie yet...
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unoff … rent-live/


bunsenlabs     8)     forum mod squad

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#8 2015-03-03 18:04:19

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

hhh wrote:
twoion wrote:

Please explain to me, what are "non-free live images of Debian"?

Not available for jessie yet...
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unoff … rent-live/

tty
Sure they are. This is non-free live images of Jessie:

32-bit : https://sourceforge.net/projects/tweakl … -obf-i386/

64-bit: https://sourceforge.net/projects/tweakl … obf-amd64/

Obviously this is my project, with my app-selection and stuff. But the point is that you have to make your own images.


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#9 2015-03-03 18:22:20

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Bah. Who needs live images. The Debian installer is only a more colourful version of the CB installer anyway smile

In any case, these are thoughts for the medium term. BunsenLabs seems to be headed in the right direction to meet the immediate need of CB users.

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#10 2015-03-03 18:27:25

twoion
Emerald Caffeine
From: 星界
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

hhh wrote:
twoion wrote:

Please explain to me, what are "non-free live images of Debian"?

Not available for jessie yet...
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unoff … rent-live/

Touché.

non-free was referring to the non-free section of a Debian repo? I was thinking of Richard Stallman and/or money when reading that for the first time. Please excuse my failing imagination...


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#11 2015-03-03 19:51:06

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

^ Actually, you were right to think RMS.  Basically, if a package doesn' meet Debian's standards for "The Four Freedoms", it falls into the non-free category.  Debian makes the packages available to us, but they aren't "officially Debian", hence the unofficial live builds.

By the way, are there any official live builds of Jessie yet?  I thought Debian's policy was to make live builds available only for Stable.  (Of course, that doesn't keep people like us from making our own.)

@IntoCB:  Regarding packages, aside from the scripts, configs, and artwork, I think we're going to try to stay pure Debian.  Or did I misunderstand the question?

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#12 2015-03-03 20:13:41

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

pvsage wrote:

are there any official live builds of Jessie yet?

No; the link @spacex provided is for his own build (which won't boot on my system or in VirtualBox).

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#13 2015-03-03 20:50:21

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

^ Didn't think so.  (Not the failing to boot thing, just the official live builds.)  Nice to know I'm not going cray-cray.

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#14 2015-03-03 21:01:49

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
pvsage wrote:

are there any official live builds of Jessie yet?

No; the link @spacex provided is for his own build (which won't boot on my system or in VirtualBox).

Don't know about VirtualBox, but booting fine for me on my system. Just out of curiosity. Did you dd it to a stick, or are you trying it from a dvd? I've only tested it from usb myself. Anyway, if it wont boot, then it's a live-build bug, or a strange incompability with your hardware. I haven't done anything special that should influence the boot. No tweaks from me in that regard. All by defaults. Will test it on another pc, as I've only tested it on this pc.

Edit: Tested on second pc now. Booting just fine on both my lenovo and my samsung laptop. Both intel-based with Intel hdgraphics.

Last edited by spacex (2015-03-03 21:26:03)


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#15 2015-03-03 21:16:18

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

spacex wrote:

Don't know about VirtualBox, but booting fine for me on my system. Just out of curiosity. Did you dd it to a stick, or are you trying it from a dvd? I've only tested it from usb myself. Anyway, if it wont boot, then it's a live-build bug, or a strange incompability with your hardware. I haven't done anything special that should influence the boot. No tweaks from me in that regard. All by defaults. Will test it on another pc, as I've only tested it on this pc.

I used `dd` & a USB stick -- I thought it was probably my hardware as well otherwise I would have PM'd you.

I didn't mean to criticize your work in any way.

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#16 2015-03-03 21:30:42

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
spacex wrote:

Don't know about VirtualBox, but booting fine for me on my system. Just out of curiosity. Did you dd it to a stick, or are you trying it from a dvd? I've only tested it from usb myself. Anyway, if it wont boot, then it's a live-build bug, or a strange incompability with your hardware. I haven't done anything special that should influence the boot. No tweaks from me in that regard. All by defaults. Will test it on another pc, as I've only tested it on this pc.

I used `dd` & a USB stick -- I thought it was probably my hardware as well otherwise I would have PM'd you.

I didn't mean to criticize your work in any way.

Oh. Not at all. I'm just happy to get feedback. What kind of HW do you have. I've only tried it with INTEL sandy/ ivy-bridge graphics.


Regards,
spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#17 2015-03-03 21:33:09

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

spacex wrote:

Oh. Not at all. I'm just happy to get feedback. What kind of HW do you have. I've only tried it with INTEL sandy/ ivy-bridge graphics.

The machine I tried it on is an AMD -- see the screenfetch info in this screenshot:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 81#p421581

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#18 2015-03-04 02:30:07

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

About a Debian DE - I recall on Ubuntu Breezy (was it?) when there wasn't any Xubuntu iso, you could install it from a 'server' Ubuntu (ie no Gnome, just base cli) by adding a Xubuntu repo to sources.list, then 'apt-get install xubuntu-desktop'.

Which means, no install scripts, just a metapackage. The end result was a properly-configured user desktop. If the same could be achieved on Debian for BunsenLabs that would be great!

There will be a lot of hurdles to be crossed though. CrunchBang never reached that point.

Anyway, by building up our stock of properly-debianized BL packages we're setting out at least in the right direction. Meanwhile, a look at how xfce and lxde manage without any install-scripts might be useful.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#19 2015-03-04 02:35:26

porkpiehat
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-10-02
Posts: 1,007

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Downloading Tweak now, but at ~1G it is unlikely I will keep it, even if it does install on my Intel hardware.

Last edited by porkpiehat (2015-03-04 14:04:54)

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#20 2015-03-04 14:39:47

freistil
#! Member
Registered: 2014-12-16
Posts: 66

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

That's just a couple of steps ahead then.. cool idea. Gets my upvote and support.

I have one concern though, or two, to be more exact.
The one is, there are already tons of DE's. Will it be worth it timewise to do that? I mean that can be a focus if you're sure that that what you're producing will be a building piece for other distros to come. And we should make sure that this makes it worth the effort then.

The second one is a little different, I wrote already a little thread about the topic.
Let's think about doing it. Does it make sense developing something new from scratch now? As I see, opembox is the central element for Bunsen to come, which is good - but also a piece of software, that gets hardly developed and relies purely on Xorg - libraries. The developers of openbox said, itis more or less impossible to simply port openbox to wayland, which will come sooner or later. Ubuntu is setting up Mir, Fedora is porting to Wayland, Arch is doing more and more - the transition is already moving. X therefore moves more and more in direction of life end - of course still far away and in 4-6 years it will still be around. But we would need at least a year or two to build a stable DE too.
So does it make sense to start a new X project now, that X slowly moves towards its end or should we try to set up a normal release without a DE and on the side try to replicate openbox in Wayland? I have the feeling this is something more future - orientated. And by looking at the Openbox source code, it is not a too complicated task. Might just add 6 months to the whole dev. process, but we would have no troubles with themes (GTK3, Qt, etcetc.), we can still launch X applications in the transition time (xwayland) and we would be one of the first Debian to do that. Why not take the opportunity, now that we don't have something to maintain and build it sustainable for the next 5-10 years? I'm sure you can get pretty lightweight with wayland too.


I mean we all have Wally now for the transition period. So we can take some time here smile

Last edited by freistil (2015-03-04 14:44:07)

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#21 2015-03-04 16:00:48

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

^I didn't realise Openbox had no future (in its current form). The only question is do we have people who have the technical skills for (and interest in) porting Openbox to wayland? Do you have those skills, for example?

@pvsage - ah ok. Cool. I misunderstood. I thought we were still looking to make packages available from the Waldorf repo.

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#22 2015-03-04 18:18:27

freistil
#! Member
Registered: 2014-12-16
Posts: 66

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Yeah, that's the problem - shortly said, openbox is or will be a dead end.
It is a very good WM, I love it and have no need for something else, but times will change and you will start getting into trouble more and more, if you rely on some pieces of software, that are just not actual anymore.
I therefore would like to see a successor to openbox, that you can still use and that still has a stable future in 5 years.

Well, I'm not too bad in C I would say.
I've done some big projects, but never something like a DE or at least a WM.

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#23 2015-03-04 18:30:37

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Openbox will be around for a while, just as X will be. Besides that, has there been any official announcement that I missed about Openbox being discontinued? No commits on git do not mean that development has stopped!

Secondly, the whole Wayland ambition is nice and all, but keep in mind that

1) Wayland is not ready yet;
2) Toolkit support is not completed yet;
3) Porting Openbox to Wayland is not a 6 month task;
4) Wayland does not use window managers in the traditional sense.
5) We can't even properly organise the (smallish, no disrespect mean to anyone) project we have going now. Imagine a task as big as a new Wayland compositor/window manager/weston plugin, that 1) is way more work and 2) requires even more organisational structure.

There's probably more I want to say on the matter, but I don't want to come off as the big bad wolf ]:D Ambition is good, but this is out of our league.

Oh, and lastly, we're not making a new DE in the way you describe we are. We're merely bundling different applications together in a meta-package with our own configuration files.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#24 2015-03-04 19:16:28

freistil
#! Member
Registered: 2014-12-16
Posts: 66

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

Yes, this was my third concern tongue we would be somewhere in the middle of all...
but well, a meta-package is something different  smile
I thought you guys had the ambituous idea of a complete DE.

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#25 2015-03-04 21:27:17

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Some thoughts about Debian and Openbox

^ Not so much a DE as a collection of utilities that give a bare Openbox session a DE-like user interface. wink

Regarding the (possible) demise of Openbox and the (eventual, they're been working on it for at least, what, four years, but I suppose it's inevitable) rise of Wayland, has anyone heard anything from the LXDE team?  Will it be abandoned when all of Linux finally moves to Wayland, or do they plan to continue on a bare Wayland base?

I'm thinking of the "Linux Sucks" panel again...

HOLY CRAP X11 IS RELIABLE.

Last edited by pvsage (2015-03-04 21:28:16)

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