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#51 2014-09-08 17:30:08

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^ Yawn.

@intoCB: That indeed.com site is interesting... I wonder how people feel on NetBSD? (you always hear about Free/OpenBSD)

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-08 17:33:47)

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#52 2014-09-08 17:37:07

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Sector11 wrote:

I really don't understand how it managed to get such wide acceptance.

i keep trying to get a handle on that too.

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#53 2014-09-08 17:52:58

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

It's in Fedora/CentOS because Lennart works for Red Hat, it's in SUSE because Sievers works for Novell. That (pretty much) leaves Debian and Arch.

Arch:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 0#p1149530

(Don't ask me what that all means) - Debian, don't know. Apparently there was a draw and somebody weighed their vote:
http://www.zdnet.com/debian-inches-towa … 000026128/

CentOS 6 still has Upstart, as does Ubuntu in the near future. Ubuntu claims they will adopt systemd because Debian does so (weird when they push Mir/Unity, though they're pretty vague)
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-08 17:57:14)

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#54 2014-09-08 18:06:28

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Alad wrote:
Sector11 wrote:

because systemd taking control of everything bothers me.

Actually that's mentioned in:

Did I miss something?  What I'm asking about is this:

Which of these is "needed" to boot the system?  If they aren't needed to boot a system they should not be part of the "initialization" process. IMHO

- Interfacing via D-Bus
- Shell-free bootup
- Modular C coded early boot services included
- Read-Ahead
- Socket-based Activation
- Socket-based Activation: inetd compatibility
- Bus-based Activation
- Device-based Activation
- Configuration of device dependencies with udev rules
- Path-based Activation (inotify)
- Timer-based Activation
- Mount handling
- fsck handling
- Quota handling
- Automount handling
- Swap handling
- Snapshotting of system state
- XDG_RUNTIME_DIR Support
- Optionally kills remaining processes of users logging out
- Linux Control Groups Integration
- Audit record generation for started services
- SELinux integration
- PAM integration
- Encrypted hard disk handling (LUKS)
- SSL Certificate/LUKS Password handling, including Plymouth, Console, wall(1), TTY and GNOME agents
- Network Loopback device handling
- binfmt_misc handling
- System-wide locale handling
- Console and keyboard setup
- Infrastructure for creating, removing, cleaning up of temporary and volatile files
- Handling for /proc/sys sysctl
- Plymouth integration
- Save/restore random seed
- Static loading of kernel modules
- Automatic serial console handling
- Unique Machine ID handling
- Dynamic host name and machine meta data handling
- Reliable termination of services
- Early boot /dev/log logging
- Minimal kmsg-based syslog daemon for embedded use
- Respawning on service crash without losing connectivity
- Gapless service upgrades
- Graphical UI
- Built-In Profiling and Tools
- Instantiated services
- PolicyKit integration
- Remote access/Cluster support built into client tools
- Can list all processes of a service
- Can identify service of a process
- Automatic per-service CPU cgroups to even out CPU usage between them
- Automatic per-user cgroups
- SysV compatibility
- SysV services controllable like native services
- SysV-compatible /dev/initctl
- Reexecution with full serialization of state
- Interactive boot-up
- Container support (as advanced chroot() replacement)
- Dependency-based bootup
- Disabling of services without editing files
- Masking of services without editing files
- Robust system shutdown within PID 1
- Built-in kexec support
- Dynamic service generation
- Upstream support in various other OS components
- Service files compatible between distributions
- Signal delivery to services
- Reliable termination of user sessions before shutdown
- utmp/wtmp support
- Easily writable, extensible and parseable service files, suitable for manipulation with enterprise management tools
- Is the parent of all processes
- Run scripts on boot and shutdown
- Know everything about the boot process and how exactly daemons are started by reading one single short shell script

I'm a noob, a "user", not a programmer.
I have a desktop PC, no servers, so it looks like: suck it up kid it's systemd "si o si"

EDIT: List to long, put in code blocks

Last edited by Sector11 (2014-09-08 19:52:36)


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#55 2014-09-08 18:13:54

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Digit wrote:

pottybinOS.  :[

oh, one other note...
i know this is likely just silly, but have you guys taken a look around in systemd configs?  why does it try to look like it always wants to call home?  ... i know those calls to org.freedesktop.whatever.blah etc are just the local way it does things, but it still looks weird.  ... none of my other configs make themselves look like they want to call home.  XD  is that to better hide any future actual call-home features that may show up later on?  lol. ;D

I wouldn't even begin to know where to look for that.   sad


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#56 2014-09-08 18:27:26

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^^ Maybe I didn't express it very well.

Is the parent of all processes
Run scripts on boot and shutdown

That. From the ArchWiki entry I linked earlier:

http://skarnet.org/software/s6/s6-svscan-1.html

And the "call home" part is for DBUS:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dbus/

And I'm not a programmer either, all I know is bash to duct-tape my system. A "sysadmin" as you like - and as was brought up, this is what many dislike on systemd: you have to change your skill-set to become a "devadmin" (systemd is 99% C).

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-08 18:32:21)

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#57 2014-09-08 18:54:21

exidux
#! CrunchBanger
From: Your screen.
Registered: 2014-09-05
Posts: 202
Website

Re: boycott systemd

the system is flawed when i see it all summed up in this thread...
It could very well be used to make a hidden security bypass by anybody which studied it enough...
backdoor at init-level anyone ? Although i am going purely on what this thread showed me, as i was
not interested in the entire ordeal before that.  roll

Last edited by exidux (2014-09-08 18:54:59)


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#58 2014-09-08 19:02:46

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

You can google around for the relationship between vulnerability and complexity.

Although i am going purely on what this thread showed me, as i was not interested in the entire ordeal before that.

That's probably the most common feel in the Linux user-base. Most have no idea, and their system will keep working/crashing either way.

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#59 2014-09-08 19:18:09

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

@Sector11: I believe I've made this point in this thread already, but:
Yes, systemd has enormous flexibility & can be used to control virtually any service; if you don't like this:

sudo systemctl mask <name of the thing you think is bad>

And systemd will no longer be in charge of that process...
If you want to do it before you boot, symlink the service files (lib/systemd/system/)  to /dev/null...
I really don't see how a program can be criticised for offering a large degree of (switchable) functionality.
hmm

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#60 2014-09-08 19:47:47

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

^ I guess with time that will become clearer as to what files to put in: <name of the thing you think is bad>.

Like I said, I'm a noob, a user, not a programmer, so I'll be looking for help for sure.

I'm not that the point I'm going to abandon #! because it's Debian and Debian has systemd ... but the way I see it, if you don't run GNOME apps or a desktop, which #! doesn't it just MIGHT be possible to get something going without systemd.

Again, just a noob user letting out what I feel. It's not just "admin" types that have concerns.

I'm sure when #! v11 "Janice" comes out corenominal will have it all packaged up nice and neat.


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#61 2014-09-08 19:49:06

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Alad wrote:

^^ Maybe I didn't express it very well.

OK, Thanks...


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#62 2014-09-08 21:08:51

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: boycott systemd

It would be interesting for Corenominal to weigh in with his thoughts on systemd.  It will also be interesting to see if he leaves it in Janice or continues with what is currently used.


Linux User #586672
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#63 2014-09-08 21:34:21

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

Debian GNU/kFreeBSD: FreeBSD kernel with GNU libraries & APT...
https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

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#64 2014-09-08 21:45:48

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^ Have you tried it? I've heard nothing but horror stories on Debian/kFreeBSD  8o

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#65 2014-09-08 21:48:48

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

Alad wrote:

^ Have you tried it? I've heard nothing but horror stories on Debian/kFreeBSD  8o

No, not at all (I love systemd) I just read about it on Distrowatch & thought this thread needed a better solution:whine ratio...
tongue

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2014-09-08 21:48:58)

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#66 2014-09-08 21:51:43

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

thought this thread needed a better solution:whine ratio...

lol

I like your new, highly accurate signature by the way.  lol  8o

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#67 2014-09-08 22:22:25

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: boycott systemd

Personally I don't worry about it. As long as my system boots, doesn't get in my face or ask me to mess about with the boot process, it can do what it likes under the hood as far as I care.


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#68 2014-09-08 22:28:03

common-sense
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2014-09-08
Posts: 130

Re: boycott systemd

damo wrote:

Personally I don't worry about it. As long as my system boots, doesn't get in my face or ask me to mess about with the boot process, it can do what it likes under the hood as far as I care.

Then you just as well might use Windows smile

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#69 2014-09-08 22:36:35

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: boycott systemd

common-sense wrote:
damo wrote:

Personally I don't worry about it. As long as my system boots, doesn't get in my face or ask me to mess about with the boot process, it can do what it likes under the hood as far as I care.

Then you just as well might use Windows smile

Wash your mouth out with soap you horrible person!


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#70 2014-09-08 22:38:08

common-sense
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2014-09-08
Posts: 130

Re: boycott systemd

damo wrote:
common-sense wrote:
damo wrote:

Personally I don't worry about it. As long as my system boots, doesn't get in my face or ask me to mess about with the boot process, it can do what it likes under the hood as far as I care.

Then you just as well might use Windows smile

Wash your mouth out with soap you horrible person!

Hehe, ROFL big_smile

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#71 2014-09-08 23:04:03

exidux
#! CrunchBanger
From: Your screen.
Registered: 2014-09-05
Posts: 202
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Could it be possible that they just want to lock-down on linux ?
I find it odd for an open source liberty based system to suddenly fall prey to company decisions like this...
The only centralized parts to Linux its development are the redhats and canonicals behind parts of it as
full blown companies.

Last edited by exidux (2014-09-08 23:05:19)


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#72 2014-09-08 23:32:49

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

Maybe, except for the "suddenly" part. tongue

All skilled Linux desktop users should switch to Haiku! (or at least try it)

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#73 2014-09-10 21:15:51

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: boycott systemd

Alad wrote:

Maybe, except for the "suddenly" part. tongue

All skilled Linux desktop users should switch to Haiku! (or at least try it)

Yay - a haiku competiton!

"The laptop screen shines
Words scroll past like flying birds
Can systemd fly?"


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#74 2014-09-10 21:29:10

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

"systemctl start
systemctl is-active
systemctl stop "

- Bash -o

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#75 2014-09-10 22:55:45

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

damo wrote:
Alad wrote:

Maybe, except for the "suddenly" part. tongue

All skilled Linux desktop users should switch to Haiku! (or at least try it)

Yay - a haiku competiton!

"The laptop screen shines
Words scroll past like flying birds
Can systemd fly?"

tongue  systemd_wings.jpg tongue

intoCB wrote:

"systemctl start
systemctl is-active
systemctl stop "

- Bash -o

NICE!


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