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#576 2015-06-22 07:44:28

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2012-03-22
Posts: 1,026
Website

Re: boycott systemd

paxmark1 wrote:

... wicd is probably not a good bet for systemd (I could be wrong).

I must say that I'm using wicd for a year on debian sid with systemd, and I had no single incident with it. Perhaps, you have different experience?


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#577 2015-06-22 09:57:03

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

Maybe we can close this thread. CrunchBang is dead and will never have systemd. BunsenLabs will have systemd. I don't doubt that systemd may well be the most evil thing since sliced bread but this is surely an odd place for a boycott of it.

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#578 2015-06-22 11:39:34

spacex
ew
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-01-17
Posts: 385
Website

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

Maybe we can close this thread. CrunchBang is dead and will never have systemd. BunsenLabs will have systemd. I don't doubt that systemd may well be the most evil thing since sliced bread but this is surely an odd place for a boycott of it.

+1


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spacex/ew
http://tweaklinux.org

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#579 2015-06-22 12:37:55

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: boycott systemd

BL is following Debian's lead and will ship with/install with systemd as the default.  However, jessie users and therefore BL users have the choice to run sysvinit, systemd, upstart, or openrc as their init system; systemd is the default but far from only choice.

As for this thread, it is a discussion of the systemd boycott, not a call for BL or CB to boycott systemd (read the OP). If you tire of reading about and discussing the topic, leave us in peace and PICK ANOTHER THREAD.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#580 2015-06-24 04:19:50

pingu
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-12-05
Posts: 367

Re: boycott systemd

https://lkml.org/lkml/2015/6/23/22
any thoughts?

dont let the thread die  ]:D

(the name could just be changed to systemd discussion thread, or systemd anxiety disorder thread, or something like that though)

Last edited by pingu (2015-06-24 04:21:57)


"We don't merge kernel code just because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack."
Linus f****g Trovalds

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#581 2015-06-24 04:56:16

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: boycott systemd

Linus' Reply:

That said, I have to admit to being particularly disappointed with the
performance argument for merging it. Having looked at the dbus
performance, and come to the conclusion that the reason dbus performs
abysmally badly is just pure shit user space code, I am not AT ALL
impressed by the performance argument. We don't merge kernel code just
because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack. Kernel
code has higher standards, and yes, that also means that it tends to
perform better, but no, "user space code is shit" is not a valid
reason for pushing things into the kernel.

So quite frankly, the "better performance" argument is bogus in my opinion.

That still leaves other arguments, but it does weaken the case for
kdbus quite a bit.

Then here:

* kdbus support is no longer compile-time optional. It is now
>           always built-in. However, it can still be disabled at
>           runtime using the kdbus=0 kernel command line setting, and
>           that setting may be changed to default to off, by specifying
>           --disable-kdbus at build-time. Note though that the kernel
>           command line setting has no effect if the kdbus.ko kernel
>           module is not installed, in which case kdbus is (obviously)
>           also disabled. We encourage all downstream distributions to
>           begin testing kdbus by adding it to the kernel images in the
>           development distributions, and leaving kdbus support in
>           systemd enabled.

Somehow I think that kernel maintainers are not gonna be happy with userspace stuff pushing into the kernel.

Last edited by tknomanzr (2015-06-24 05:02:10)

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#582 2015-06-24 05:04:45

pingu
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-12-05
Posts: 367

Re: boycott systemd

thanks! I hadn't had found linus' answer yet, and it's epic!

Last edited by pingu (2015-06-24 05:05:00)


"We don't merge kernel code just because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack."
Linus f****g Trovalds

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#583 2015-06-24 05:57:56

smacz
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 250

Re: boycott systemd

OK. (facitious AND rhetorical) question:
    If systemd isn't efficent/effective then why would it be integrated into

  • Debian

  • Redhat

  • Ubuntu

  • SUSE

  • Arch

Linus might not believe that it's good enough (for the kernel) but might it just be The init system we deserve???

Which init system does Linus (I literally typed Linux instead of "Linus" three times) support? (Please don't answer this question and keep reading...)

AGH! Well it's been adopted. One can only look to the future, SO!...rhetorical question aside, actual question...and I quote:

So, here's a simple question:

    Would this affect BunsenLabs ability to offer disk encryption (LUKS???) on the LiveCD/Install as #! did?

Last edited by smacz (2015-06-24 06:00:39)

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#584 2015-06-24 06:01:36

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

^ Debian jessie offers disk encryption with systemd.

What makes you think this is a potential problem?

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#585 2015-06-24 06:59:20

smacz
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 250

Re: boycott systemd

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Debian jessie offers disk encryption with systemd.

Cool! Sounds like it would not...affect BunsenLab's ability to offer disk encryption...on the LiveCD/Install as #! (was able to offer).

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#586 2015-06-24 09:08:54

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

I am trying to imagine a retarded monkey on crack. If he'd had the help in school he needed he would be clean now.

So, would user space be better written by:

  • retarded monkey on crack

  • retarded monkey not on crack

  • monkey with full mental faculties on crack

  • monkey with full mental faculties not on crack

Perhaps they could run experiments. Or perhaps they could just leave the retarded monkey alone with his crack. He seems kind of happy albeit poor.

Come to think of it, if Linus Torvalds is so obsessed with monkey metaphors, why isn't the Linux emblem a monkey?

Last edited by intoCB (2015-06-24 09:09:27)

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#587 2015-06-24 19:51:36

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

I am trying to imagine a retarded monkey on crack. If he'd had the help in school he needed he would be clean now.

Obvious question: monkeys go to school? tongue

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#588 2015-06-24 20:04:05

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: boycott systemd

pvsage wrote:
intoCB wrote:

I am trying to imagine a retarded monkey on crack. If he'd had the help in school he needed he would be clean now.

Obvious question: monkeys go to school? tongue

Hey. If ponies can fly, monkeys can go to school.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#589 2015-06-24 20:07:15

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

^ Of course, just like flying ponies.   lol


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#590 2015-06-24 20:31:44

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

^ Flying monkeys maybe? tongue  ("It's from a movie...Margaret Hamilton...")

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#591 2015-06-24 20:47:03

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

If ponies can fly, if horses can fly, Pegasus, and pig's can fly ... why not a monkey?

NB:  Don't know the movie reference.


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#592 2015-06-24 21:19:07

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: boycott systemd

a flying pig should be called a pigasus

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#593 2015-06-24 22:19:42

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

Yes. Monkeys go to school. And they love systemd. In fact, they even wrote systemd, as well as all the NSA backdoors.

Or did I dream it?

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#594 2015-06-24 22:42:09

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2012-03-22
Posts: 1,026
Website

Re: boycott systemd

CSCoder4ever wrote:

a flying pig should be called a pigasus

smile  smile  smile

Amd flying GigaByte USB sticks should be called gigasus. 8o 8o

(Sorry, I'm mildly drung ...)


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#595 2015-06-24 23:52:34

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: boycott systemd

iMBeCil wrote:
CSCoder4ever wrote:

a flying pig should be called a pigasus

smile  smile  smile

Amd flying GigaByte USB sticks should be called gigasus. 8o 8o

(Sorry, I'm mildly drung ...)

Nah, that would be the child of Gigabyte and Asus   8o

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#596 2015-06-25 16:38:32

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

I don't mind people being against systemd. I am systemd-agnostic since I lack enough Linux knowledge to validate either side's arguments or to come to my own independent conclusions. But what is really boring is all the conspiracy theories and all the mud-slinging against Debian because the project took a decision that some people are not happy with.

Hypothesis followed by auditing and proof. This would be good. But the insinuations, the mud slinging, the whining. It's wholly counter-productive. More to the point, I'm disappointed that anyone involved in some form of IT could be so irrational and non-logical about the whole thing. Let that which can be proven be proven. Leave insinuation to the office bitch or whoever embellishes the tediousness of his or her existence with that kind of drivel.

Right, I'm off to suspend kittens in baskets from lampposts, which strikes me as vastly of more use to humankind than worrying about the fact that current and future releases of Debian will all have systemd as default.

ZZZZZzzzzzz...

Last edited by intoCB (2015-06-25 16:44:47)

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#597 2015-06-25 17:50:15

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

The way I see it when systemf comes out systemd will be totally forgotten or it will be like ... Y2K

Remember all the fuss over the Y2K - airplanes falling out of the sky, servers locking up, $$$ spent on the problem ... and on and on ...

Then came 1 Jan 2000, I got up, turned on my computer and life went on.  I'm still waiting!


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#598 2015-06-25 18:04:15

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

^Ah systemf. Along with the Y3K bug. Can't wait.

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#599 2015-06-25 18:48:38

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

I don't mind people being against systemd. I am systemd-agnostic since I lack enough Linux knowledge to validate either side's arguments or to come to my own independent conclusions. But what is really boring is all the conspiracy theories and all the mud-slinging against Debian because the project took a decision that some people are not happy with.

Hypothesis followed by auditing and proof. This would be good. But the insinuations, the mud slinging, the whining. It's wholly counter-productive. More to the point, I'm disappointed that anyone involved in some form of IT could be so irrational and non-logical about the whole thing. Let that which can be proven be proven. Leave insinuation to the office bitch or whoever embellishes the tediousness of his or her existence with that kind of drivel.

I largely agree. But hypothesis, auditing and proof do not work when applying accumulated experience and the precautionary principal. Outcomes with a long tail can ultimately but not immediately be measured (ahem, climate change). I am following the lead of Linux Mint Debian Edition - use jessie with sysvinit plus the systemd-shim as an application of that principle.  We'll get around to systemd after letting the dust settle (or provide a model for others to back out of systemd if needed).

Debian members made a decision that I am not happy with, but can certainly live with. They did not drink the kool-aid. The sky is not falling. Choice remains enshrined in the Debian Way - you can choose from many init systems (systemd, sysvinit, upstart, openrc), and the devs have gone to great lengths with systemd-shim to provide access the non-init parts of systemd (systemd-login functions for example).

I do find valid criticisms of the Debian decision making process (see Combatting Revisionist History), but the process is in place and has generally served well. Attributed to Churchill, "Democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time".  I'd make a similar argument for Debian.  I trust the process will continue to evolve, both because of and in spite of people complaining long and loud. Human processes are messy.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#600 2015-06-25 18:50:37

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

^ if you and I are still around for Y3K it will be a P*A*R*T*Y.

I'll bring the Geritol and Ensure.  lol  lol


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