SEARCH

Enter your search query in the box above ^, or use the forum search tool.

You are not logged in.

#551 2015-04-21 00:24:53

Kuno
#! Die Hard
From: Osnabrück - DE
Registered: 2009-01-09
Posts: 674

Re: boycott systemd

I'm using systemd now since months. Last 6 months on sid and about 11- 13 months before on Waldorf.
Experiences so far: no pets have died! Hdd's work as expected. SSD's work as expected. IP-Connnections work as expected. Everything works like expected. Services can be disabled/enabled to my will. No problems at all.
No problems ??  I don't like having no problems. When there aren't any problems, life gets boring. I don't like feeling bored. Maybe i should start init-hopping ?

Offline

Help fund CrunchBang, donate to the project!

#552 2015-04-21 01:07:05

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: boycott systemd

Clipped Pvsage ? That suks and hope you're ok fellow nixer.

Have zero against LMint, started out w LM10 and have a soft spot for that distro. Ahhhh first distro luv. tongue Though imo it's always been, no doubt always will be heavily dependent on upstream. They listen to what their userbase wants from what I've ever seen and it keeps em popular among those nixers.

Seems they know there's more than enough Nix to go around and nothing wrong w them giving people choices. Though isn't exactly like they're doing anything so much special, LM's just using what's available. Any Debian user can use the systemd-shim too if they desire.

So if there's credit to be assigned, jmo, would rightly go to Debian. Trying to please everyone ... one and all though everything strongly indicates that systemd is the future of the gnu/nix init system so perhaps they're kinda telling people we might want to go ahead and actually get acquainted with it. They're still leaving a heckuva grace period.

Seems like the heavy lifting for maintaining systemd-shim and making it work in Jessie is going to fall more on Debian, than LM and with them switching to stable. Gotta say they're (LM) smart folks and good at popularity moves. Kinda believe Debian is playing it too conservative when it comes to systemd, slow moving distro by design, fast developing systemd, yet a new init system in gnu/Nix surely can't be considered a case of business as usual. Would like to see them fast track it and do some kind of special circumstances situation.

Just more stupe babble on this topic. The horse has been dead for a longggggg time, guess it won't mind if we all get in a few more whaps. big_smile Vll!


Missed that ... oops. LMFAO Kuno. lol

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2015-04-21 01:22:23)


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

Offline

#553 2015-04-21 03:11:59

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: boycott systemd

pvsage wrote:

OK, I'm back.

Can we at least change the thread title?  The current title of "boycott systemd" is counter to official policy here at the BunsenLabs/CrunchBang forum, which is to support - or at least be tolerant of - the default init system used in Debian.

But we don't have to be tolerant of the [translate "shower" to French] who makes it, right?


Point & Squirt

Offline

#554 2015-04-21 04:21:06

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

@cpoakes

LMDE is an independent project, downstream from Debian. It is a good project that listens to its users but it is not part of Debian. LMDE uses Debian stable [sic] as a component.

Debian/systemd is a closed subject in the sense that a decision has been taken to have systemd as the default init for Debian 8.0. This was done democratically and transparently according to the rules of the Debian project.

It is true that a different default could be chosen for Stretch. However, since Debian has a democratic process, there is no need for a boycott.

Better than a boycott would be something like understanding why core software  like GIMP is becoming dependent on systemd and providing code to that project to counter this. Why not be pro SysV instead and mobilise a hardcore of coders who are able to do the leg-work (or finger-work) to maintain SysV as an option, highlighting its technical merits? Boycott is too much like political action and I don't think that's where strength in FOSS comes from. It comes rather from capable individuals rolling their sleeves up.

Offline

#555 2015-04-21 05:57:46

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: boycott systemd

@intoCB
I wholeheartedly agree on two points.  First, the subject of default init system is closed.  But revisiting that choice is hardly the sole intention behind the phrase "Boycott systemd" or in continuing this discussion.  Second, proSysV action is appropriate and necessary.  My money is where my mouth is; I contribute to both Devuan and LMDE. And thanks for the heads-up on the GIMP.

Some equate a boycott of Debian with a boycott of systemd but I venture that does not include the majority of systemd-critical voices in this thread.  I think we are here because we are invested in CB/Debian.  I realize LMDE is downstream. The example is still significant as it uses the official Debian alternative sysvinit system and the official Debian systemd-shim, one of three official Debian init systems. Anyone can just as easily install 100% Debian without using systemd as an init system; boycotting systemd does not require boycotting Debian. And in the big picture, I think using/supporting/advocating/maintaining sysvinit in the Debian base is the most constructive solution.

I don't like systemd but I also don't hate it. It is a choice, the default choice, but not the only choice.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

Offline

#556 2015-04-21 07:07:22

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

@CBiz:  Barely grazed by the fender of a flatbed trailer; closest I've ever come to actually getting hit in a right hook collision.  Was literally "butthurt" for a couple weeks due to my crack getting violently intimate with the top tube of my bike, but I got over it.

Anyway, fine; talk about how much you dislike systemd to your hearts' content.  I suppose it isn't much different from my dislike of capacitive touchscreen interfaces as opposed to an actual physical keypad; we're both rejecting something new that we feel uncomfortable with in favor of something older that has never let us down.

Offline

#557 2015-04-22 05:31:58

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: boycott systemd

Lol ... Pvsage, just noticed you said got clipped yrs ago. Thought was a more recent occurrence, still glad ya came out of the ordeal with only some pita < literally. Moment of silence for the dead mode of transportation. No matter what that always suks.


Vll! smile


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

Offline

#558 2015-04-22 08:51:29

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

... Better than a boycott would be something like understanding why core software  like GIMP is becoming dependent on systemd and providing code to that project to counter this...

Where are you getting your information?  There are no systemd dependencies for GIMP in jessie (try "apt-get remove --simulate systemd").  Google "systemd gimp" and you get google-zip. The GIMP hasn't even moved on to GTK3 yet...


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

Offline

#559 2015-04-22 10:51:35

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

It appears there there was a misunderstanding about that: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? … 20#p554403

Offline

#560 2015-04-28 20:51:57

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: boycott systemd

I'm sure you have heard about kdbus by now -- the systemd people were aiming at merging a server component for dbus into the kernel. Well, they didn't get it into 4.1 -- for reasons. Linus just took a look at kdbus/dbus and did some profiling:

Linus Torvalds wrote:

No, I think you're right, there's the other non-potato choice: "dbus
is seriously screwed up".

That thing has almost no kernel footprint. It's spending all it's time
in user space overhead.

Quite frankly, the whole "kdbus is important for performance" seems to
be *totally* invalidated by even a minimal look at profiles for that
thing. Here's the top-15 offender list:

   2.62%  gdbus    libc-2.20.so                [.] _int_malloc
   2.43%  gdbus    libc-2.20.so                [.] free
   2.31%  server   libc-2.20.so                [.] free
   2.12%  gdbus    libc-2.20.so                [.] malloc
   1.77%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_utf8_validate
   1.43%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_slice_alloc
   1.41%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_hash_table_lookup
   1.28%  server   libc-2.20.so                [.] _int_malloc
   1.27%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_mutex_lock
   1.22%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_variant_unref
   1.16%  server   libc-2.20.so                [.] malloc
   1.14%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_bit_lock
   1.07%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_slice_free1
   1.05%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_bit_unlock
   1.01%  gdbus    libglib-2.0.so.0.4200.2     [.] g_mutex_unlock

there's not a kernel function in sight in the top-15, and it's all
just overhead. The above is from the server side, but the client looks
similar.

If somebody wants to speed up dbus, they should likely look at the
user-space code, not the kernel side.

My guess is that pretty much the entirely of the quoted kdbus
"speedup" isn't because it speeds up any kernel side thing, it's
because it avoids the user-space crap in the dbus server.

IOW, all the people who say that it's about avoiding context switches
are probably just full of shit. It's not about context switches, it's
about bad user-level code.

Whoever uses libglib and expects otherwise is severely misguided.

Let me quote again, for the fun big_smile

Linus Torvalds wrote:

So really. The people who talk about how kdbus improves performance
are just full of sh*t. Yes, it improves things, but the improvement
seems to be 100% "incidental", in that it avoids a few trips down the
user-space problems.

The real problems seem to be in dbus memory management (suggestion:
keep a small per-thread cache of those message allocations) and to a
smaller degree in the crazy utf8 validation (why the f*ck does it do
that anyway?), with some locking problems thrown in for good measure.

More gold:

>> That said, either you're running your test on a potato, or dbus is
>> seriously screwed up. No way should it take 4+ seconds to send a 1000b
>> message to back and forth 20k times. But as mentioned, I can't even
>> see what it's doing right now.
>
> Whee!  I'm typing this email on a potato!


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

Offline

#561 2015-04-28 21:43:07

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

^  me me too typing on a potato ... can I blame my tpyos on the white things growing out of it?   lol

I shouldn't be laughing but ... it is funny.


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

#562 2015-05-31 13:49:55

xor
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 775

Re: boycott systemd

gutterslob wrote:

But we don't have to be tolerant of the [translate "shower" to French] who makes it, right?

JTAC reports a direct hit, target destroyed.  ]:D

after some excursions around *BSD and OpenIndiana (formerly known as OpenSolaris),
i've decided to continue on CentOS (which i've alredy mentioned before here) as well as
on FreeBSD, which looks to me like a perfect follow-up of my once-so-favoured Debian.

i post this only to motivate others to follow and take the plunge into FreeBSD also,
it is BY FAR easier than it seems at first. especially when you stick to the binary PKG
concept (like me) and focus on running the STABLE version only. it's simply great !

it is pretty easy to build up your own FreeBSD system from a netinstall, much like on Debian.
and you can have all the "old friends" over there, too -- e.g. the Openbox window manager,
a true (i.e. branded-as-such) Firefox web browser, a Thunderbird e-mail client, LibreOffice and so on.
for tiling-wm advocates like myself, spectrwm is also there. so why not take a look over the fence ?
maybe you'll discover the grass is indeed greener on the other side... don't be afraid, you might enjoy it !

and best of all, it's all completely without systemd and other nagging naughties.
remember, the *whole* FreeBSD operating system is managed by a team of software engineers.
that is quite a different approach than the "one-man-kernel-dictatorship" seen on Linux.

tl;dr ? IMHO, FreeBSD delivers where Debian got weak.
that's just my usual stupid two cents, you may want to make up your own impression now.
have phun !  wink

[now it's time for another espresso over here... *sigh*]

Offline

#563 2015-05-31 14:04:05

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

+1 for FreeBSD -- it is an amazing operating system, but it does require a lot more configuration than GNU/Linux users may be accustomed to.

I will say though that the kernel and userspace in the BSDs is tightly integrated and developed by the same team, much in the same way as systemd is.

It is also arguable that systemd brings GNU/Linux closer to this paradigm (and the UNIX principles) despite the cries of "monolithic!" and "non-UNIX" made by those users who clearly have no experience of true UNIX systems.

Offline

#564 2015-06-18 19:23:31

xor
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 775

Re: boycott systemd

http://www.datamation.com/open-source/w … stemd.html

"Can you believe that some Linux users are still opposing systemd?"

yes, we can ! big_smile

Offline

#565 2015-06-18 19:25:28

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

^ That was just linked by the news bot over at LQ -- they weren't impressed by it...
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions … 175545746/

]:D

Offline

#566 2015-06-18 20:55:16

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

I've been scanning this thread since its inception.  I still haven't read any convincing argument against systemd.
:yawn:

Offline

#567 2015-06-18 21:42:13

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

There are enough people that know more about what's under the hood than I do that I have faith in that say it's OK.

That cool for me, it changed my mind.


·  ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓   ↓  ·
BunsenLabs Forums now Open for Registration
·  ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑   ↑  · BL ModSquad

Offline

#568 2015-06-19 04:32:51

smacz
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 250

Re: boycott systemd

I did scratch my head when it came to light that it would store the journal in a binary blob. That made me shake my head to know that no better idea had been tried.

Offline

#569 2015-06-19 06:27:42

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

smacz wrote:

I did scratch my head when it came to light that it would store the journal in a binary blob. That made me shake my head to know that no better idea had been tried.

The journal can be read from a distribution not using systemd with the strings command wink

For example, if the live #! ISO is booted and the target system mounted to /mnt then you can search for $MESSAGE with:

strings /mnt/var/log/journal/af4967d77fba44c6b093d0e9862f6ddd/system.journal | grep -i $MESSAGE

EDIT: The term "binary blob" is applied to binary executables whose source code cannot be read -- this term should not be applied to the systemd journals as they are readable by anybody from any system with or without the use of systemd & journalctl.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2015-06-19 06:30:34)

Offline

#570 2015-06-19 20:01:31

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

^ That sounds like just one example of people using incorrect terminology to intentionally spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt; thank you for that clarification.

...and before anyone accuses me of being anti-sysvinit, so far the only concrete advantage I've heard about systemd is that it "makes the trains run on time".  It makes me curious as to why, as mature as sysvinit is, it hasn't been better optimized, to the point that Red Hat felt a need to build a new init system from scratch.

Offline

#571 2015-06-20 00:24:08

smacz
#! Junkie
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 250

Re: boycott systemd

pvsage wrote:

It makes me curious as to why, as mature as sysvinit is, it hasn't been better optimized, to the point that Red Hat felt a need to build a new init system from scratch.

Because...open source??? This whole thing appears to be similar to the sendmail v. postfix situation. Except more system-central.

HoaS wrote:

EDIT: The term "binary blob" is applied to binary executables whose source code cannot be read -- this term should not be applied to the systemd journals as they are readable by anybody from any system with or without the use of systemd & journalctl.

That is a very important definition. Thanks for that clarification. I guess what I meant was that it is in binary(?) and I can't just:

sudo vim /run/log/journal/XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/system.journal

I won't pretend to know what the string command is (until I need to use it of course - and at that point it's off to the archwiki), but it seems like you'd have to be familiar with (in the biblical sense) what you're looking for in order to find it. Which would be a bit of a hinderance to me if I'm trying to get a grasp on what i'm looking at/for. Also, if I really can't live without syslog, I know that there is a way to forward all of the logs to syslogd also, but I haven't looked into that yet.

However on the troubleshooting side, it does an incredible job at standardizing output. Posting for help in forums should (in theory) become much more manageable and accessible to those doing the helping.

I am fully immersing myself in the sysadmin side of systemd, having just got a new server(!) and putting centos7 on it and all the VM's it's handling. And you know what? The train hasn't been late yet.

Offline

#572 2015-06-20 03:17:57

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: boycott systemd

By default, debian is still forwarding all logging to syslog, currently. Journald has to be setup in debian before it will work. At that point, you could allow it to still forward to syslog or turn the forwarding off and make the switch to journald. If I could just figure out how to make the necessary unit files to fire up a wifi network I would be all set tongue

Offline

#573 2015-06-20 09:22:46

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

tknomanzr wrote:

If I could just figure out how to make the necessary unit files to fire up a wifi network I would be all set tongue

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=39103

Offline

#574 2015-06-20 14:09:48

tknomanzr
#! Die Hard
From: Heavener, OK
Registered: 2014-12-09
Posts: 777

Re: boycott systemd

Hey thanks @HoaS. I want to start doing my network startup the systemd way. I got rid of NetworkManager a week or so ago as I really have no purpose for it on this desktop. My attempts to configure it via systemd following the arch wiki failed, however, so I went back to editing /etc/network/interfaces.

Offline

Help fund CrunchBang, donate to the project!

#575 2015-06-21 05:10:10

paxmark1
#! Junkie
From: Winnipeg, MB Canada
Registered: 2009-07-08
Posts: 263

Re: boycott systemd

I can thing of 3 programs that will start a valid .service for networks in systemd, one of the is nmcli - the command line service  for network-manager.  ceni does not and wicd is probably not a good bet for systemd (I could be wrong).


Jean Vanier wrote "Being Human" and "A Short History of Progress" by Ronald Wright.  Gotta love the Massey Lectures.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB

Copyright © 2012 CrunchBang Linux.
Proudly powered by Debian. Hosted by Linode.
Debian is a registered trademark of Software in the Public Interest, Inc.
Server: acrobat

Debian Logo