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#476 2015-01-28 11:42:24

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Kuno wrote:

Should i go back to windows ?

Don't know, do they need cleaning? lol


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Be excellent to each other!

#477 2015-01-28 11:59:13

Kuno
#! Die Hard
From: Osnabrück - DE
Registered: 2009-01-09
Posts: 674

Re: boycott systemd

Sector11 wrote:

Don't know, do they need cleaning? lol

Damn... Now you got me. ]:D

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#478 2015-01-28 12:37:14

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

Kuno wrote:

I still do not not even know, what sacrifice i made...

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/ … 4usn5q.jpg


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#479 2015-01-28 12:50:25

tivasyk
Member
From: kyiv, ukraine
Registered: 2010-08-30
Posts: 26
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Kuno wrote:

I switched to systemd on waldorf about one and a half year ago and now run a surprisingly stable  #! sid for three months. […] Should i go back to windows ?

that's the point: you have the choice, and it's up to you. nobody takes systemd from you once you decide you like it. even if it didn't make it to most of the distros you'd most probably have the option to install it from the repos. so here you've ust totally missed the point of my humble comment, sorry.

Kuno wrote:

I still do not not even know, what sacrifice i made... :(

there's no easier decision than to sacrifice something one doesn't even know he has. could be as painful though once you learn you probably needed it.

but this is a rather philosophical question, not technical. so for you this is probably irrelevant, it's ok, but for me the sysvinit vs systemd flame is also a philosophical question, not technical. to go back to your "should i go back to windows" question… if for you it's just a technical question of whichever boots faster and has more verbose logs — why not, i've heard good things about windows ;-)


[ corenominal mccoder has created a masterpiece. this is a linux distro. all craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. it is crafted of scripts. it menaces with spikes of code. it menaces with spikes of theming. it depicts an image of a crunch. it depicts an image of a bang. the crunch is crunching. the bang is banging. ]

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#480 2015-01-28 12:57:50

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

tivasyk wrote:

*conspiracy theory*

Samuel Johnson wrote:

I refute thee thus! *kicks rock*


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#481 2015-01-28 20:29:33

jalexander9
#! Member
From: USA
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 86

Re: boycott systemd

Oh my, this debate on the merits of systemd has really polarized the linux community.

I have already changed repositories for Debian Jessie and systemd is deeply embedded within it.

Tried to use recommendations from ^ hhh and ^^^^^^^* -HoaS, previously discussed in this thread, using
the systemd-shim, sysvinit-core, and systemd-sysv removal.

Made reference list on all of your secondary source websites and webpages...alot of reading there...

Not to happy about the implications and the already forked Devuan group splitting from Debian....:(....


Intel Pentium 4 150 GB HDD 4 GB RAM

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#482 2015-01-28 20:36:26

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

jalexander9 wrote:

Tried to use...sysvinit-core...

And... what? You couldn't use sysv-init as your init system or you're buying into the "systemd flies in the face of the Unix philosphy" camp?

Last edited by hhh (2015-01-28 20:39:15)


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#483 2015-01-28 21:22:47

jalexander9
#! Member
From: USA
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 86

Re: boycott systemd

Well, switched back today for fear of breaking more packages, or encountering another ....

" E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages..." and the conflicts between the
(2) different versions of: systemd-sysv and sysvinitcore...288dsf-58...and 310 ...IIAMNM....

But don't worry I still have alot of reading to do ...and your advice is really great!!! I appreciate
this type of work you are willing to share with other #!'s...thanks for your support, greatly....


Intel Pentium 4 150 GB HDD 4 GB RAM

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#484 2015-01-28 21:26:26

jalexander9
#! Member
From: USA
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 86

Re: boycott systemd

And my system still works pretty fast. The last dmesg output was incredibly clean....

So that means the kernel, scripts, and code are working seamlessly, quite well...


Intel Pentium 4 150 GB HDD 4 GB RAM

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#485 2015-01-28 22:42:27

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

Hey, don't thank me!  smile I'm just posting what I've seen and experienced as I have free time to post, but the work is all other people's! My opinions, however, are all mine, and you know what's said about opinions.


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#486 2015-01-28 22:47:16

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

jalexander9 wrote:

" E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages..." and the conflicts between the
(2) different versions of: systemd-sysv and sysvinitcore...288dsf-58...and 310 ...IIAMNM....

BTW, I haven't experienced this on my jessie netinstall, nor had I on the wheezy>jessie upgrade I had going until I dd'd an ISO to /dev/sda.

One little letter. Damn you, alphabet!


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#487 2015-01-28 23:29:26

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: boycott systemd

hhh wrote:

and you know what's said about opinions.

Yea: mine are always right.

{)


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#488 2015-01-29 00:49:30

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: boycott systemd

tivasyk ... sock puppet ? Ew ... is that you again ?

Despite the obvious futility of this tardation. Am hoping some nixer comes out w an app/util, that will automagically block web content that contains the word systemd. Unless x-user specifically overrides it, while looking for actual useful information about the subject. ie: how to use it an easy fix to xyz or the many easy options to achieve xyz in systemd.

This is a subject, that's annoying really and really annoying. Folks ... many of which are both technically clueless, blind to the obvious and possessing of no common sense in doubtless any area of life, technical or non-tech.

Based upon mountains of irrefutable findings related to the topic and opinions expressed by people who have pairs of socks that have forgotten more about gnu/nix, software devel and/or technology overall, than many of the nutjob conspiracy weirdoes passionately screaming this is the end of the world. The end of Linux, the end of buy one get one free and whatever other crazy nonsense such can be relied on to scream about until the end of time.

I must conclude that systemd is a good option and an improvement. Though I also reserve the right to use one or a combination of the many alternatives available, in whichever use case, if I don't want to utilize systemd for any reason, shrugs.

In fact I for one am outraged that all the kickbutt and ingenius people in the Gnu/Nix and opensource world forced sysVinit on me for so long and that for quite awhile, I didn't even know what systemV was ! How dare they !!?!?! Why didn't they come out w systemd long ago dang it ! Or other alternative init's I could've used !?!?! Oh wait a minute, there has been TONS of other options around forever already. I just didn't appreciate or learn about what was available. NO ... that's their fault too !

End of the dy, that's the simple truth. The majority of gnu/Linux users, won't know systemd is even there or have any reason to. Just like they had no reason or idea that sysvinit was there. They'll notice that their system boots faster and is more stable perhaps, though that's unlikely and speculation on my part.

Part of the shiny, happy people, politically correct, lost in space bs I take serious issue with. That being everyone feels entitled to expertly discuss and express an opinion about EVERYTHING, no matter how little they've ever bothered to learn, even having the slightest clue about what they're saying. Much less ... actually bothering to get/have 1st hand experience with the/a subject they seem to suggest they know everything about. Sheesh, these people will argue with and contradict recognized authorities and seem oblivious to the fact, that to anybody who isn't fulla chit, they are obvious azzhatz.

Shiny, happy people holding handsssssss. smile


Vll!

Edit: That isn't everybody, I personally longggggg to be among the many open-minded, non-azzhatish people of the world, Plenty of them hang-out right here in crunch forum too. Those people who will say, ya know biz, I don't know much about xyz, I'd have to look into it and learn about it, if I'm interested in it dude. YES ! Thank you so much for being that kind of person.

Omg ... one of the people ( many) who know they weren't born knowing everything, or watched a movie and consider themselves a special forces soldier or merc afterwards ! Thank you, thank you sooooo much, for not being one of the shiny, happy zombies holding hands or more often, fighting over the stupidiest chit, when they aren't holding hands.

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2015-01-29 01:18:48)


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#489 2015-01-29 19:01:16

jalexander9
#! Member
From: USA
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 86

Re: boycott systemd

^ Wow thanks CBizgreat!...I don't know whether to keep crying...laughing...or give you a resounding standing ovation...
   every post gives me a ride on an emotional rollercoaster!....

Back to report half of all posted websites have been read...there are some smoking guns, if people want to read them all...

Here is one more: http://community.badvoltage.org/t/syste … ity/819/10

Edit: 20150129 - This page has been made unavailable or is now private

...:(.....

Edit: Add another : http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Debia … 81637.html

Last edited by jalexander9 (2015-01-30 04:10:21)


Intel Pentium 4 150 GB HDD 4 GB RAM

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#490 2015-01-30 08:38:49

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: boycott systemd

^ Thanks and thanks for the link too, biz is one of the babble gawds favorite chia pets. tongue

Still think Devuan is a ridiculous joke, as that article says, who even are these space cadets anyway ? Think they have zero idea ( which is a very bad sign) what they'd be getting into, even if they had anything like the skills and resources to back up the lofty words, shrugs.

One thing they claimed was "we won't repeat Debian's mistakes". Yeah right ... Debian has been doing this for 20yrs, are obviously extremely competent people an lightyears ahead of these anonymous whackjobs in qualifications pertaining to all that's involved.

Meaning, am guessing TONS of people assoc w Debian have forgotten more about how all the variables involved actually function, than Devuan will ever know. How do you avoid "making the same mistakes", of uber better qualified people, when they don't even know how something works ? smile

I'd almost be surprised to see the respin even make it to Devuan v 1.0. (relevant edit: Not like it'd take much by way of skill to avoid systemd for quite awhile and/or indefinitely for real  and mirroring a repo, sheesh, could slap 180gbs of repo binaries on a collection of friggin dvds. I know because I looked into doing it.) Update edit: What's a 2Tb ( or larger) external hdd going for atm ? Lol ... yeah, I know ... just google biz ! Can't be much.

Though anythings poss, it ( Devuan) could/can then limp along among the vast herd of other Debian derivatives. They should contact Core, and the devs at Siduction, perhaps Linux Mint HQ etc etc *add endless list of others here* and ask these people just what they're actually proposing getting themselves ( and userbase) into. Shrugs.

Those people could no doubt tell them much and that's from long standing, varied scale projs, some FAR down-stream of Debian itself. Betting they could clue these (imo) weirdoes in on the fact, that its not going to be a matter of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows.

Just me but I also seriously doubt, any serious dev ( currently or formerly assoc w Debian or other major opensource organizations) are taking these VUA collective folks seriously or seriously considering joining the "collective". big_smile

Oh well time will tell. Systemd ? Same damn thing but it's clear it's not this insidious, world ending, sky is falling piece of software clueless azzhatz keep whining about ... jmo, shrugs. Am just going to shut up before the crunchers hit me w a shoe.

Vll! smile

Edit: I deserve it too, considering hitting meself for all this stupid babble. Plus there went 5 or so mins of my life I'll never get back posting babble about Devuan ! Arghhhhh. I'm over the systemd thing and getting on w my life.

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2015-01-30 10:26:21)


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#491 2015-01-30 21:14:17

jalexander9
#! Member
From: USA
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 86

Re: boycott systemd

^^^^^^@hhh

BTW, I haven't experienced this on my jessie netinstall, nor had I on the wheezy>jessie upgrade I had going until I dd'd an ISO to /dev/sda.

FYI - You made reference to a second alternative for using the upstart package as a method for a systemd workaround, ..it worked...

My first attempt using the sysinit-core and a conflict of package versions on the first workaround, along with held broken packages
were the reasons why this failed first time around....

This isn't for the faint of hearts kids, because plymouth package still has a bug associated w/ GDM and kdm services...so like the
true #! crash-test-dummy, I went ahead w/ full install of suggested packages, as well.... So far so good...Kudos to you hhh..!!..


Intel Pentium 4 150 GB HDD 4 GB RAM

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#492 2015-02-09 22:12:10

xor
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 775

Re: boycott systemd

PC-BSD could be an option:

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/ … try-pc-bsd?

...at least for me.

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#493 2015-02-16 17:18:48

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: boycott systemd

Here is a nice inspiring graph that shows a part of the packages would be removed from a XFCE Debian Jessie if you tried to 'purge' libsystemd0:

xlungr.jpg
Source: debian-user

the list is a whopping 4,583 packages (from the current
debian/testing).  apache2-dev, androidsdk, apt-cacher-ng,
avahi-daemon, blender, bluetooth, bochs, cairo-dock, calligra,
consolekit, cups-daemon, cups-core-drivers, cups-driver-gutenprint,
dbus - this is just a few major software libre packages i can see in
the the first 9% of the list that are affected (cannot be installed)
should anyone exercise their right to choose *not* to have libsystemd0
on their machines.

Last edited by twoion (2015-02-16 17:21:48)


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#494 2015-02-16 17:53:53

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

Saying you're going to purge libsystemd0 in jessie is like saying your going to purge libc6 in linux.

Two posts later in that mailing list...
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/20 … 00644.html

Marco d'Itri wrote:

I strongly recommend that the people who cannot live with libsystemd0
installed on their systems leave Debian, because their life is going to
suck more and more as we will integrate it in every important daemon
after jessie will have been released.

-edit- And two posts later from that...
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/20 … 00649.html

Christian Seiler wrote:

It's funny that when Wheezy (not Jessie!) came out, nobody complained
that libsystemd-login0 (which is now part of libsystemd0) was as a
dependency of dbus, so it is probably already installed on most desktop
systems running current Debian stable.

Look out, you've already been captured by The Illuminati!

Last edited by hhh (2015-02-16 17:57:48)


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#495 2015-02-16 18:00:04

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: boycott systemd

^ That's good ol' Marco for you, a true apologist of the systemd.


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#496 2015-02-16 18:00:44

hhh
Cityspeak
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 3,253

Re: boycott systemd

And two posts after that...

Christian wrote:

If you want to be involved in the
design and development of a software, do what everyone
else does -- contribute. That works for everyone else, AFAICT. It's
really becoming tiring to hear this incessant, high-pitched,
full-of-entitlement whine about how the free-as-in-speech software
someone else is putting the time and effort to provide them with is not
acceptable to them. If you know something that all-the-desktops and
all-the-distros don't, then act on that knowledge.


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#497 2015-02-16 18:00:48

AnInkedSoul
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2010-06-30
Posts: 232

Re: boycott systemd

twoion wrote:

Here is a nice inspiring graph that shows a part of the packages would be removed from a XFCE Debian Jessie if you tried to 'purge' libsystemd0:

I use to remove/purge/block libsystemd but that is just silly

it is one lib, one symlink, one changelog and one copyright file

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#498 2015-02-16 18:49:50

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

Yeah, init.

I run FreeBSD now (learning it as a server OS) but not because of systemd. When Corenominal killed CrunchBang 8.( I went back to some exercise/experiment I was doing with FreeBSD. Then one day it suddenly clicked and I realised it was all I ever wanted from a Unix-like operating system.

Last edited by intoCB (2015-02-16 18:50:11)

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#499 2015-02-16 19:05:49

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: boycott systemd

^ Unfortunately they are always playing catchup with Linux device drivers, including things like the Intel i915 graphics driver sad I wouldn't be able to use it on my Haswell laptops, because of the graphics, and due to powersaving issues. But it does really make an excellent server OS (and probably desktop too if you don't need much 3d acceleration).


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#500 2015-02-16 19:15:14

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

^Yeah - using it in a virtual machine. Previous attempts with X made me feel it's not really worth it.

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