boycott systemd

josephg · 2014-11-03 09:01:56

tty-tourist wrote:

josephg wrote:
at this rate, the only one left might be old friend microsft singing jingle balls by next christmas
Wow - you must really hate systemd!

i don't hate systemd. i just don't like systemd apparently becoming a dependency for everything, and instead of focussing on being init 1, is starting to take over the entire system management role and a bit more. that is a #TBTF! systemd should be broken up into independent pieces, each with a very specific remit. and each piece should follow the unix philosophy.

Sector11 wrote:

^ where did you see this about BSD?

not really. but when upstreams start making systemd a dependency, how long would bsd stay out?
i think we are waiting on jessie becoming stable or even oldstable, before making a decision.

Last edited by josephg (2014-11-03 09:20:52)

Unia · 2014-11-03 10:36:35

AFAIK OpenBSD only has plans for a compatibility layer; they don't plan on supporting booting with systemd.

hashbanger · 2014-11-03 10:41:42

OpenBSD plans an API-compliant replacement for systemd calls without actually implementing systemd components.

gutterslob · 2014-11-03 11:26:02

I briefly discussed this with Unia earlier in the thread. As hashbanger and others stated, it's basically a stub of sorts to aid porting of software that has systemd dependencies. Afaik, it's planned for ports and won't be part of base. You probably won't ever need it unless you're pulling in the entire Gnome suite.

http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article& … 0915064856

Last edited by gutterslob (2014-11-03 11:32:57)

josephg · 2014-11-03 11:46:00

gutterslob wrote:

You probably won't ever need it unless you're pulling in the entire Gnome suite.

definitely no de/gnome bloatware here. i've just removed gnome-keyring, and #! is still happily running.

$ dpkg -l | grep gnome
ii  gir1.2-gnomebluetooth-1.0            3.4.2-1                            i386         Introspection data for GnomeBluetooth
ii  gnome-bluetooth                      3.4.2-1                            i386         GNOME Bluetooth tools
ii  gnome-icon-theme                     3.4.0-2                            all          GNOME Desktop icon theme
ii  gnome-mplayer                        1.0.6-1                            i386         GTK+ interface for MPlayer
ii  libgmlib0:i386                       1.0.6-1                            i386         gnome-mplayer library (shared library)
ii  libgmtk0:i386                        1.0.6-1                            i386         gnome-mplayer toolkit (shared library)
ii  libgmtk0-data                        1.0.6-1                            all          gnome-mplayer toolkit (common files)
ii  libgnome-bluetooth10                 3.4.2-1                            i386         GNOME Bluetooth tools - support library
ii  libgnome-keyring-common              3.4.1-1                            all          GNOME keyring services library - data files
ii  libgnome-keyring0:i386               3.4.1-1                            i386         GNOME keyring services library
ii  libpam-gnome-keyring                 3.4.1-5                            i386         PAM module to unlock the GNOME keyring upon login
ii  libsoup-gnome2.4-1:i386              2.38.1-3                           i386         HTTP library implementation in C -- GNOME support library
ii  network-manager-gnome                0.9.4.1-5                          i386         network management framework (GNOME frontend)
ii  network-manager-openvpn-gnome        0.9.4.0-1                          i386         network management framework (OpenVPN plugin GNOME GUI)
ii  network-manager-pptp-gnome           0.9.4.0-2                          i386         network management framework (PPTP plugin GNOME GUI)
ii  network-manager-vpnc-gnome           0.9.4.0-1                          i386         network management framework (VPNC plugin GNOME GUI)
ii  policykit-1-gnome

these are the only gnome bits left, and if i can get rid of these too, i think i can move on.. and continue #!ing friends & family any tips?

btw does anyone remember the Halloween Documents? http://catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween1.html

Last edited by josephg (2014-11-03 12:17:24)

ratcheer · 2014-11-03 14:03:28

josephg wrote:

i don't hate systemd. i just don't like systemd apparently becoming a dependency for everything, and instead of focussing on being init 1, is starting to take over the entire system management role and a bit more.

^ That!

Tim

KrunchTime · 2014-11-07 08:09:52

Read a post over on the Salix forums recently that Slackware may have no choice but to eventually use systemd as well. I guess that leaves the other two options on the boycottsystemd site.

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-07 22:41:31

It remains to be seen if the other distros can hold out forever. Red Hat is a major upstream contributor, and we still don't really know how much of the system they plan on making systemd dependent. Pottering has expressed one of his goals is to homoginize the distros. Supposedly, they are re-thinking package management as well. I wonder if they can force that via systemd. It really feels like they just want everybody to run Red Hat with a Debian or Arch or whatever branding stamped on it. I am truly worried about the future of the Linux Distro. I am only speculating, but if Red Hat were to succeed in pushing such an agenda, I think it would be time to let Linux die a graceful death. I mean, if it turns out that is the case, it would be very hard for the distros that adopted it to back out without having to be set back by an order of magnitude. Sure, you can just switch Init systems, but you would also have to come up with some solution for every piece that systemd has swallowed in the last few years, or rely on things like shims, but that feels like a very inelegant solution -ie a stop-gap measure rather than a permanent solution.

exidux · 2014-11-07 22:42:52

i think i read somewhere that the man behind crunchbang is tired of the systemd talk, and i
think he yawned or something. ]:D

Well, that will be my most important and deepest contribution to the topic.
* next to the other posts a while back.

Last edited by exidux (2014-11-07 22:46:02)

porkpiehat · 2014-11-07 22:52:11

As others have already explained, if you understand your system, it is quite easy to use another init, regardless of "every piece that systemd has swallowed in the past few years" -- it is even easy to use busybox or openrc init on Arch, one of the distros that has completely adopted systemd. Far from limiting choice, systemd has spawned the creation of many alternate init systems. But the haters won't want to accept this, so this will be my last post on this subject.

twoion · 2014-11-08 10:39:52

In possibly related news: Joey Hess is leaving Debian. He was an uber Debian developer. (Thread)

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-08 18:16:28

I, too, feel the systemd arguments are growing stale. However, they will continue so long as people feel there has been no resolution on this issue.

porkpiehat wrote:

But the haters won't want to accept this

I'm not a hater, I have a rational objection to the aforementioned systemd.

porkpiehat wrote:

so this will be my last post on this subject

Convenient, that. Clearly you had something to say, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place.

porkpiehat wrote:

if you understand your system, it is quite easy to use another init

The implication here being what? That I do not understand my system because I don't agree with your inept opinion of the situation? Perhaps I am mistaken, but it sounds as if you are trying to say "You don't agree with me, your dumb." without sounding juvenile. (It's not working, fyi) As if we, the ignorant dissenters could just see the light, we would drop everything and run, skipping and clapping, into the loving arms of systemd. The truth is, there are many systemd naysayers whose sum total of the Linux system towers over mine and yours put together. There are many reasons, both technical and philosophical that users have expressed for not liking systemd.

porkpiehat wrote:

it is even easy to use busybox or openrc init on Arch, one of the distros that has completely adopted systemd.

That is not even a point that was being discussed. This is true, for the moment. People are upset because it won't be so easy to do in the future, as more and more components of the system are being made dependent on systemd (e.g. kdbus)

porkpiehat wrote:

Far from limiting choice, systemd has spawned the creation of many alternate init systems

What would those be? You imply that somehow systemd showed up, and brought with it all these wonderful new choices for us. It didn't Busybox was originally written in 1995 and Openrc came out in 2007. Systemd was released in 2010.

I welcome any productive discussion from either side of the fence, but please keep in mind the title of this thread is pretty clearly for those opposed to systemd's adoption. If you just dropped in to spread a little FUD, then kindly go back to pooping in your own litter box.

jeffreyC · 2014-11-08 18:49:38

ratcheer wrote:

josephg wrote:
i don't hate systemd. i just don't like systemd apparently becoming a dependency for everything, and instead of focussing on being init 1, is starting to take over the entire system management role and a bit more.
^ That!
Tim

Exactly!

jeffreyC · 2014-11-08 18:53:33

m1rr0r5h4d35 wrote:

It remains to be seen if the other distros can hold out forever. Red Hat is a major upstream contributor, and we still don't really know how much of the system they plan on making systemd dependent. Pottering has expressed one of his goals is to homoginize the distros. Supposedly, they are re-thinking package management as well. I wonder if they can force that via systemd. It really feels like they just want everybody to run Red Hat with a Debian or Arch or whatever branding stamped on it. I am truly worried about the future of the Linux Distro. I am only speculating, but if Red Hat were to succeed in pushing such an agenda, I think it would be time to let Linux die a graceful death. I mean, if it turns out that is the case, it would be very hard for the distros that adopted it to back out without having to be set back by an order of magnitude. Sure, you can just switch Init systems, but you would also have to come up with some solution for every piece that systemd has swallowed in the last few years, or rely on things like shims, but that feels like a very inelegant solution -ie a stop-gap measure rather than a permanent solution.

And how long after that until they make the RedHat logo a dependency of systemd?
]:D

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-08 22:36:46

jeffreyC wrote:

And how long after that until they make the RedHat logo a dependency of systemd?

Don't give them any ideas.

Anaconda · 2014-11-09 00:01:00

So I find myself having something in common with Linus. I have no strong opinions on systemd. http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/ … on-systemd

This next one is only somewhat relevant but I found it mildly amusing. http://www.zdnet.com/lennart-poettering … 000034384/
From the comments section on this one "Hey at least Linus never threw a chair at the guy".

Alad · 2014-11-09 02:12:11

m1rr0r5h4d35 wrote:

I welcome any productive discussion from either side of the fence, but please keep in mind the title of this thread is pretty clearly for those opposed to systemd's adoption. If you just dropped in to spread a little FUD, then kindly go back to pooping in your own litter box.

Since when do people register here just to flamebait? Kindly crawl back under your rock.

As to init systems (I've linked to this before):

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Init

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-09 03:17:27

I wasn't trying to "flamebait", as you put it. Arguing this any further would be unproductive. If I have offended you somehow, then I apologize. It was never my intention.

chillicampari · 2014-11-09 03:51:51

Quick (general) reminder, people are going to have different opinions, but as much as possible, keep it to the argument itself, not the person posting. Thanks.

common-sense · 2014-11-09 13:44:01

It seems like systemd debates has the potential to emulate os-debates. fanboys on both sides, and just a few that's looking at it with open minds. What's up with those that always seems to think that what IS, will always be best... EFI sucks, systemd, sucks, yes, pretty much every major improvement sucks. But give them a few years, and they love the new stuff too...

It's just like the people who hate W8. If you put them on a W 3.11 system, they would all admit that everything wasn't better before

exidux · 2014-11-09 19:32:29

common-sense wrote:

It seems like systemd debates has the potential to emulate os-debates. fanboys on both sides, and just a few that's looking at it with open minds. What's up with those that always seems to think that what IS, will always be best... EFI sucks, systemd, sucks, yes, pretty much every major improvement sucks. But give them a few years, and they love the new stuff too...
It's just like the people who hate W8. If you put them on a W 3.11 system, they would all admit that everything wasn't better before

Common sense.
It is like a fish which needs to adapt to new water.

jeffreyC · 2014-11-09 20:07:41

common-sense wrote:

It seems like systemd debates has the potential to emulate os-debates. fanboys on both sides, and just a few that's looking at it with open minds. What's up with those that always seems to think that what IS, will always be best... EFI sucks, systemd, sucks, yes, pretty much every major improvement sucks. But give them a few years, and they love the new stuff too...
It's just like the people who hate W8. If you put them on a W 3.11 system, they would all admit that everything wasn't better before

But not everything new is an improvement either.

Just because it is new does not automatically make it good or bad.

Just because it is old does not automatically make it good or bad.

(And W8 sucks because it sucks)

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-09 20:37:25

I don't dislike systemd because it's new or different. I dislike it for reducing my freedom of choice to zero. Not trying to be argumentative, but I realize there are many init systems to choose from. That's not the point, the point is that as long as it continues to not only absorb other parts of the system that have nothing to do with init, and software continues to be made dependent on it, then those other init systems will be broken. No one has the manpower to fork and maintain separate non-systemd dependent versions of all the software needed to make a complete distro. I respect others right to choose to install and use systemd if that's what they want. All I ask for is the same respect for my freedom to choose something else. Unfortunately, I believe that at this point it is moot. Unless something big changes in the future, it's pretty clear that systemd has won. We will be able to choose something else for a while, but eventually everything is going to be dependent on it eventually, and that saddens me greatly.

jeffreyC · 2014-11-09 22:06:16

Looking at their plans systemd will become the layer between the kernel and everything else.
It is being made a dependency of more and more things.

At some point it will be impossible (or more work than anyone will do) to have a Linux system without systemd.
Then whoever controls systemd controls Linux.

m1rr0r5h4d35 · 2014-11-09 23:06:16

That would be Red Hat. I wonder at the future of BSD as well. A lot of software is developed for Linux, then ported to BSD. Curious to see how that mess will play out.

CrunchBang Linux

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#251 2014-11-03 09:01:56

Re: boycott systemd

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