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#1 2014-09-03 14:48:29

xor
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 775

boycott systemd

http://boycottsystemd.org/

stumbled upon this earlier this day.
thought some of you might be interested as well.

share your opinions on this !

my personal view:
i dislike LP, though we have never met IRL yet.
i hate him for his pulseaudio crapware, which i always remove.
and i fear that systemd might be even worse...

EDIT 2014-09-07:
The Story Behind ‘init’ and ‘systemd’: Why ‘init’ Needed to be Replaced with ‘systemd’ in Linux
http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/

EDIT 2015-06-15:
"Understanding Systemd" written by CyberPunk
http://n0where.net/understanding-systemd

Last edited by xor (2015-06-15 19:53:33)

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2014-09-03 14:55:31

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: boycott systemd

Down with systemd!

Hopefully thise won't get locked and binned like it did on the Arch Forums  yikes

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#3 2014-09-03 15:53:09

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

@ xor - I think you may be right about systemd.  Also not a fan of pulseaudio, it has never worked right for me, so I strip it as well.

CSCoder4ever wrote:

Hopefully these won't get locked and binned like it did on the Arch Forums  yikes

I see no reason why it should.  It's an opinion on something to do with Linux and it's in Off Topic / General Chat.

And what PERFECT timing!  Today while waiting for the bus I see this guy with the RedHat logo/name on his backpack.  Sure enough he works for them, but runs Gentoo on his personal machine.  Talk got around to systemd - he said it can be bypassed - but got off the bus before we could get into it.  I'll see him again, it's not the first time I've seen him.  big_smile

Meantime there is:
SID:Package: systemd-shim (7-2 and others)
testing: Package: systemd-shim (7-1)

I wonder if #! v12 can be built without systemd. - just a thinking out loud here.


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#4 2014-09-03 16:00:27

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: boycott systemd

^ Awesome! Yeh It's funny, I wear a Debian Trucker hat, yet I run Arch Linux on my laptop...

So far only one person noticed at college  lol  lol

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#5 2014-09-03 16:04:12

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Not bad ... a Debian Trucker hat, #! on your desktop, and ARCH on your laptop.   Android on your phone?   ]:D


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#6 2014-09-03 16:11:15

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^^^ Re Arch, I've created an AUR package for systemd-shim, but so far there's no interest to help me get it working. It's in the endless waste of my TODO list (thx org-mode  8o )

Otherwise there's KDBUS, which may (eventually) make systemd-udev (i.e. hot plugging) unusable outside systemd. And it's highly unlikely that eudev will ever make its way to Debian.

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-03 16:16:55)

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#7 2014-09-03 16:22:10

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: boycott systemd

Sector11 wrote:

Not bad ... a Debian Trucker hat, #! on your desktop, and ARCH on your laptop.   Android on your phone?   ]:D

Slackware on the Slackstation, Arch on the servers, and Android is NOT on my phone  8)  O:)

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#8 2014-09-03 16:30:59

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: boycott systemd

CSCoder4ever wrote:

Slackware on the Slackstation, Arch on the servers, and Android is NOT on my phone  8)  O:)

Not sure why anyone would run Lennart's Bitch* on a server. Do you need a bleeding-edge library of some sort, like for Minecraft or something?

*FYI, thats the new official name for Arch.


Point & Squirt

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#9 2014-09-03 16:35:55

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: boycott systemd

That page is a gold mine.

Comment 1 Zbigniew Jedrzejewski-Szmek 2013-08-05 03:08:22 UTC

The only way to deal with journal corruptions, currently, is to ignore them: when a corruption is detected, journald will rename the file to <something>.journal~, and journalctl will try to do its best reading it. Actually fixing journal corruptions is a hard job, and it seems unlikely that it will be implemented in the near future.

Note that the corruption reporting has become more verbose since this bug was reported, and some "corruptions" that were reported as such are now reported as unusual, but acceptable events (happened after 204, so the changes are included in systemd-205).

Comment 2 Lennart Poettering 2014-06-25 09:51:01 UTC

Yupp, journal corruptions result in rotation, and when reading we try to make the best of it. they are nothing we really need to fix hence.

I'm giving them an LOL for that.

Embracing file corruption. It's the freaking SYSLOG, stupid.

Just wait, we'll be reading our corrupted syslogs using

strings(1)

soon.

Yeah sorry, I will see a) that systemd never gets onto any server I manage and b) that it'll never become my /sbin/init.

Systemd must never get into [sadly, now only my own] Debian since considering its complexity, freezing it for Debian Stable at 208 is ultimately a brain-dead decision:

upstream won't maintain that version, so Debian has to backport *everything* that fixes bugs but *doesn't introduce incompatible functionality* (<- have fun with that). Maybe introduce a new suite called systemd-backports...? upstream won't care to provide adequate and complete documentation for that version. upstream won't care for bug reports against 208 or listen at all: Debian will end up maintaing a fork of systemd with reduced man power and expertise.

I'd rather run upstart ._.


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#10 2014-09-03 16:36:27

CSCoder4ever
BL Keyboard Troll
From: /dev/zero
Registered: 2013-09-03
Posts: 2,256

Re: boycott systemd

^ I've learned that Arch is actually decent for servers. And Since mine are not connected to the internet at all, I figure why not!

But I agree though... SystemD is... iono.. terrible!  mad

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#11 2014-09-03 18:13:09

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

I'm not 'tech' savvy at all ... Just a simple user with a desktop ... but I can read and stuff I read before seeing that link in tte OP today lead me to believe that systemd is not a good thing for Linux.  I started reading about it when systemd borked my SID install ... well, to be honest - when I tried removing it.

I really don't understand how it managed to get such wide acceptance.


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#12 2014-09-03 18:34:09

rebornmechanics
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2012-11-05
Posts: 176

Re: boycott systemd

Sector11 wrote:

I really don't understand how it managed to get such wide acceptance.

I have a theory that it's the same reason gtk3 is so widely used. Gnome2 and gtk2 for a while were "the" Linux desktop.
Alot of devs jumped to the successor naturally. There are alot of Gnome3/Unity/gtk3 refugees around here, but the overwhelming majority of people actually use Gnome3 or its hacks.
Gnome3 largely depends on systemd. If you want your distro to feature the "popular" Gnome3, you better have systemd. I know there are ways around it, but the people at Redhat try to make systemd hard not to use.

Again, this is how I see it, but my opinion is probably unqualified.

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#13 2014-09-03 18:35:57

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Sector11 wrote:

I really don't understand how it managed to get such wide acceptance.

I read an interesting article a few weeks ago that debated whether or not this is a case of the new generation versus the old. Read it here.

The idea made sense to me and I'm curious how much of it is true. As for myself, I still find myself in between both camps: I like the improvements systemd brings, but I also dislike its aggressive aproach and the attitude of its developers.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#14 2014-09-03 18:46:47

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

Guess I'm late to this party...
I'll pin my colours to the mast:
I love systemd
If you don't, the Debian Resistance is trying out some ideas:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116860
smile

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#15 2014-09-03 18:54:06

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

@ rebornmechanics & Unia

Thanks for the input, still have to read the link Unia but have to comment as I'm out of here soon for a bit.

I hear you about the gtk2 & 3 and it's still a problem.  If #! can be done with "zero" GNOME apps it would be great - but there are some underlying GNOME apps.

I preobably would have a bad taste for systemd but it destroyed a perfectly good running SID when it was installed.  All of a sudden things that worked minutes earlier (before the dist-upgrade) didn't work.  And it was directly attributed to systemd.

As far as RedHat and Lennart Poettering ... I can't say that here ...

So I'll say it this way:  I'm not playing in your sandbox so stop messing with mine!  Of course it's too late.

@ Unia: "dislike its aggressive aproach and the attitude of its developers." aggressive to the point there is NO choice and that sounds like another OS.


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#16 2014-09-03 19:07:21

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: boycott systemd

I haven't quite signed on for a boycott, but I will be avoiding systemd.  Though I enjoyed the quick boot/shutdown experimenting with Arch, I am a Unix apologist: use text configuration, a system tools approach, and "do one thing well".  The notion of a monolithic process appropriating the management of so many different subsystems goes against the Unix design philosophy.  Avoiding systemd, I expect to run Wheezy/Waldorf well after the release of Jessie. 

The systemd-shim will allow sysvinit to persist in Debian.  But upstream projects designed for systemd have already stated they will not resolve bugs reported using the systemd-shim.  This places a significant burden on the team maintaining the shim and thankless tasks like this lead to burnout.   I fear opting for Gnome applications and services will ultimately require "real" systemd.  The silver lining? maybe we will finally develop a full featured NetworkManager replacement.

For years "Linux" has meant the Linux/GNU OS Unix work-alike.  I expect Linux/systemd to usurp the "Linux OS" title as RH, Debian, Ubuntu and their derivatives standardize.  I also expect it to become perceived as a unique OS (like Android or OSX) despite the Unix heritage and another Linux/OpenRC, Linux/Sysvinit, Linux/???, or BSD to be the defacto Unix work-alike. 

Will systemd retard the adoption of RHEL 7 in the server realm? (RHEL 6 is EOL in 2023). I have already heard this inclination expressed by sysadmins.  It would not surprise me if the server market sticks with a more Unix-alike OS and Systemd/Linux only gets traction in the desktop arena.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#17 2014-09-04 00:43:44

ratcheer
#! Junkie
From: central Alabama
Registered: 2013-07-23
Posts: 338

Re: boycott systemd

This is how Poettering views the future of systemd, straight from his own blog. If you think things are bad now, just wait.

http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how … stems.html

Tim

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#18 2014-09-04 00:55:02

jdonaghy
The Manatee Whisperer
Registered: 2014-03-12
Posts: 925

Re: boycott systemd

I suppose I'm indifferent. Busybox init is the best, though


"If you can't control your peanut butter, you can't expect to control your life."
    --Bill Watterson

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#19 2014-09-04 03:16:35

twoion
Moderator
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 1,648

Re: boycott systemd

ratcheer wrote:

This is how Poettering views the future of systemd, straight from his own blog. If you think things are bad now, just wait.

http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how … stems.html

Tim

Amazing self-description:

The systemd cabal (Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann, and yours truly) recently met in Berlin about all these things, and tried to come up with a scheme that is somewhat simple, but tries to solve the issues generically, for all use-cases, as part of the systemd project.

With (quote Lennart) only 24 people having commit access to the systemd repositories, with the adoption of systemd in major distributions, we can look forward to meeting systemd devs that display an attitude of being the benign dictator..."at your service (when I feel like it)".

Yeah, maybe I should found some sort of cabal too.


Tannhäuser ~ {www,pkg,ddl}.bunsenlabs.org/{gitlog,repoidx}

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#20 2014-09-04 05:12:06

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

"Today, systemd...tomorrow, the world!!" roll

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#21 2014-09-04 06:55:55

xor
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 775

Re: boycott systemd

^ sadly... that seems to fit LP's personality rather well. sad

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#22 2014-09-04 09:13:32

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: boycott systemd

thnx for posting the boycottsystemd link.  smile

http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Pre … stallation

^ i started  a blog post, that  became a thread, that became a  wiki page.  practical tips on how to avoid systemd, for any distro.   (please share/contribute any other tips you may have on the matter.)

i'd also like to re-emphasise the link already posted here (thnx ratcheer): http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how … stems.html

if you didnt click it n have a read of it already, please do. 
to all those who thought we were just spouting frothing mouthed prejudice, ^ this should show, that we who are opposed to where systemd is taking us (potteringOS), are not the nutjobs in this whole ugly scenario.

Last edited by Digit (2014-09-04 09:15:27)

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#23 2014-09-04 09:19:30

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

We can do better than that. Let’s mancott it and write our own (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu).

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#24 2014-09-04 09:48:24

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott systemd

^ Yeah, sure.  There's absolutely zero chance that thousands - if not millions - of users will pick it up and run with it, forcing its development into a major operating system.  Oh, wait... 8o

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#25 2014-09-04 09:58:41

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^^^ neutral Yeah, that's pretty constructive.

systemd does some things right; the issue is how aggressively it claims its way is THE right way. Now you can behave the same, but claiming sysvinit has no weaknesses at all; see how many people you're going to convince.

What you should do instead is look at both sides (e.g OpenRC), and modularize systemd (eudev, OpenBSD *ctl, systemd-shim, Funtoo's patched GNOME etc.) Even the "boycott systemd" page suggests doing so.

Here's my contribution: CLICK

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-04 10:36:50)

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