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#51 2013-09-03 19:28:47

falldown
#! Samurai
Registered: 2011-09-01
Posts: 1,727

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

It all boils down to common sense and respecting others.

We will on occasion have someone whom does not care for either one of these simple concepts, but it will not
be the undoing of this community.
We communicate with one another. When an issue arises we resolve it.. as a community.
That I believe makes this community unique.. and strong.

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#52 2013-09-03 19:47:10

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

To me, "respecting others" means treating them as adults (not 6 year olds).

But since it's not my forum and my moderating days are over... Happy Fluffy Sparkle Pony Love Hugs, children!   {)  8o  {)  8o

Last edited by snowpine (2013-09-03 20:08:43)


/hugged

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#53 2013-09-03 19:50:26

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Sector11 wrote:
Unia wrote:
ew wrote:

I don`t want this forum to go all Dutch either...

Hey! Nothing wrong with being Dutch!  big_smile

being Dutch or going Dutch ... interesting ... how language / meanings differ.

I knew that  ]:D But I will take you on that restaurant if you ever visit The Netherlands!


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#54 2013-09-03 20:20:32

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Some excellent dialog here all around.

@snowpine:  The reason I specifically said something along the lines of "don't post anything you wouldn't want a 6-year-old relative to read" is because if you wouldn't want such a person to read it, there's a good chance that some adult would find something offensive about it.  You might, for example, say something like "**u* this **i*!" to express frustration in front of adults, even though - or perhaps specifically because - the phrase is prima facie offensive; I'd expect most people to at least give such an expression a second thought if children are present.

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#55 2013-09-03 20:45:40

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

@ pvasge: ^ B I N G O !   Jackpot!

@ Unia - that would be if I visit again.  I LOVE the Netherlands!  However I suspect due to $$ and age it won't happen.  But thnk you kindly for the offer.

Last edited by Sector11 (2013-09-03 20:48:04)


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#56 2013-09-03 20:50:53

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Meh. Never felt it was my personal responsibility to protect other peoples' children from adult content on the interwebz. But for those of you who choose to make it your mission, I wish you the glitteryest of all unicorns. smile


/hugged

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#57 2013-09-03 21:04:33

falldown
#! Samurai
Registered: 2011-09-01
Posts: 1,727

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

snowpine wrote:

To me, "respecting others" means treating them as adults (not 6 year olds).

Agreed.
What I think pvsage is getting at is that we all on occasion express ourself with a colorful vocabulary, but we do need
to keep in mind that not all of us are adults.. be it a guest or member.

EDIT:

snowpine wrote:

Meh. Never felt it was my personal responsibility to protect other peoples' children from adult content on the interwebz.

I also agree with this.. but this is a linux forum.. not a site that would require the use of *U**ING **I* to help someone get their wireless up and running. big_smile

Last edited by falldown (2013-09-03 21:14:18)

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#58 2013-09-03 21:14:33

dbvolvox
#! CrunchBanger
From: England
Registered: 2011-01-05
Posts: 180

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

This forum has a great culture that must be a reflection of the thoughtful nature of the #! distro and the sort of people that it appeals to. The very fact of this thread and the contributions are testament to that. The suggested change to the 'Off topic' strap line is a good one, otherwise leave well alone.

I do have a question though. Why the antipathy to necroposting? I find most questions can be answered by diligent searching of the forum and many of you  urge that course when new recruits ask a question. So if you find something useful in an old thread why not post in it, to add to the knowledge or bring it up to date or develop the idea?

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#59 2013-09-03 22:07:20

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I have a more lenient policy to necroposting than other moderators, and if I feel that closure of an old thread due to necropost is necessary, I'll do everything I can to help whoever bumped the thread to get the assistance they need.

If a patently random and off-topic thread is necrobumped (e.g. the "which OS are you" thread) I'm inclined to leave it alone...also threads with info that tends to remain relevant in Debian across release cycles, like the recently-bumped "Arch/ArchBang vs Gentoo vs Debian Unstable" thread...basically I judge each necropost on a thread-by-thread basis.

Last edited by pvsage (2013-09-03 22:11:22)

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#60 2013-09-03 22:57:46

CaptainIndifferent
#! CrunchBanger
From: The Vale of Si
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 202

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

@pvsage: ^ Thank you for this! I know that the recommended alternative to necroposting is to start a new thread and reference the old one but, when people have done this, nine times out of ten I end up finding the old post before the newer one and there are no forward links to the refreshed information.


Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.

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#61 2013-09-03 23:00:33

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Unia wrote:
ew wrote:

I don`t want this forum to go all Dutch either...

Hey! Nothing wrong with being Dutch!  big_smile

Nope, but you know what I mean. It`s a very liberal country, which I personally don`t mind, but others are obviously having issues with it. Especially americans tend to be quite conservative. They beep everything, and all nudity is so sinful that they have to blur a naked breast or bottom on television. While they have San Pornando Valley, and are cheating, drinking and using substances at least as much as people in more liberal countrys. Or much more. Why? Because censorship doesn`t work., It only makes the censored subjects and objects more interesting and creates illegal underground markets and industrys, criminalizing the common population.

Quite frankly I think that people who gets easily offended by other peoples opinions and behaviour need to get offended a lot more, until they develope a level of tolerance of the things they don`t like. Free speech and free thought shouldn`t be censored. Of course I accept that a forum moderates topics to make sure that it is the topics that are discussed. But I don`t accept moderation of posts that are on topic. We can not censor opinions just because we don`t like them.

But hey, now I got political, and that is dangerous. Someone might get offended...

Last edited by ew (2013-09-03 23:02:42)


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#62 2013-09-03 23:06:15

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

intoCB wrote:

Moderation like many things is only good in moderation. If it becomes excessive, it's not really moderation anymore. It's excess. And who ever heard of a forum being run (successfully) with excess?

I don't think "Anything goes" needs to be qualified. In the same way that "Make yourself at home" said to a best friend doesn't really need to be qualified and could not reasonably be seen as a queue for him/her (ok, him) to pee in your sink, even if that's what he does at home.

+1 Excellent post, and I fully agree.


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#63 2013-09-04 04:58:22

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I'm glad everyone else sorted the whole "go Dutch" / "turn Dutch" thing; we don't want to get in Dutch with the Dutch. 8o

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#64 2013-09-04 06:23:09

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Second thought ... babble edit.

Pretty much just reiterating that the #! mods do a fine job and leaving it @ that. wink

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2013-09-04 07:03:29)


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#65 2013-09-06 05:26:00

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

@snowpine:  Based on what you wrote here and your posts earlier in this thread, I'd say that mankind has yet to invent an instrument that can measure the difference in our positions on all this.  Hugs to you as well! 8o  Part of treating each other as adults includes avoiding puerile name-calling like the so-called "gender policing" on 4chan. wink

off-topic:  There are some things that the Dutch got right that my country seems incredibly resistant to, like bicycle-friendly roads and universal health care...but this is verging dangerously into politics, so I'll stop right here.  /off-topic

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#66 2013-09-06 17:55:13

Inodoro Pereyra
#! Die Hard
From: Back in Buenos Aires
Registered: 2013-07-01
Posts: 844

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Ok, I started reading this thread, but when I got to the end of page one and saw there were another 2 pages to go through, I just decided to voice my opinion. So if I'm saying something that's been said before, my apologies.

@Pvsage: I think, on your original post, you've answered your own questions.
A rule is as effective as it is enforced, and you guys are the enforcers. So, considering how worried you are about the chance of eventually turning the forum into a police state, I'd say we can be sure that's not gonna happen.
The math is simple: you're nice people = you got a nice forum. Period.
That said, there are a lot of excellent suggestions on this thread (on page 1 for sure, and I'd bet also on the other 2 pages) that I'm sure you will consider. But, as it is, I think this is one of the best forums I've been a member of, ever.

Either way, there are a few of your points I'd like to comment:

pvsage wrote:
bobobex wrote:

The PRIMARY aims of the #! forums is for users to share information and help each other with CrunchBang/Debian related issues.  The Off-Topic section is provided as a courtesy for members but we expect our members to exercise some common sense when posting in there.

I consider the Off Topic / General Chat area just as important to the health of the forum as the Help & Support and Feedback areas.  It is there that we form bonds with fellow forum members over common interests that go far beyond CrunchBang, and it is these bonds that turn the forum into a true community.

I couldn't agree more with you.
Some time ago, on another forum's off topic section (it's called "The Café"), I engaged on a thread about climate change. That thread (as it seems to be the case with anything on the matter, on any forums I participated on) became pretty heated, with a few posters (myself included) making a few "less than polite" comments. All of a sudden, the thread was closed. Actually, if you visited that forum, you'd realize most of the "Café" threads end up being closed by the mods.
So I opened a new thread, asking the mods to reconsider their decision and reopen the thread (based on the fact that, albeit having become not so nice, that thread contained lots of great information on the topic), and publicly apologizing for my offending posts. The reply I got from the mods was pretty much like the above statement: "this is a support forum, and the café is provided as a courtesy. If you're not happy with how we do things here, feel free to leave.". And then, I received a notification that I was given an infraction for opening that extra thread. So I left for almost 2 years, and even when I went back, I never posted in the café again.
Now, I have no illusions about my level of usefulness on a linux forum. I'm well aware that I'm mainly a leech (of sorts), and can seldom be of any help to anybody, unless they make some very basic question. But I'd think, if you want your forum to be polite, you have to, first, be polite yourself. There are many different tools a mod has to take care of a thread like that, from post editing/deleting, to telling the poster to do so. Closing a good thread just because of a few out of line posts seems to me like burning down a house to kill a fly.

pvsage wrote:

We do not want our forums to be associated with porn, drugs, criminal activities or any other topic which may inadvertently cause offence to another forum member who reads the thread.

This should go without saying. sad  There were a couple of threads last year regarding the use and merits of certain substances that, while legal/decriminalized in some countries, are prohibited in most; shutting down those threads was part of what led to the unrest last year.

Hmmm... Talk about a can of worms here.
One of the "Murphy's Laws" says: "Every time you say something so clearly that NOBODY could possibly misunderstand you, somebody will."
For example: let's say somebody here posts a picture of himself/herself on vacation on the beach, and they're both wearing bathsuits. Nothing offending or illegal about that...in HERE. But what would a Taliban (I'm not talking terrorists here, but people that professes the more conservative branch of Islamic religion. At the same time, this is an example, not intended to offend anybody) sees that picture?
My point is, you're always bound to offend somebody. We should be adult enough to, in case somebody feels offended by something, talk about it openly and civilly, and eventually find some common ground. At that, I don't think that paragraph does any good.

pvsage wrote:

If it is deemed to be unsuitable, then a moderator will close the thread. When a moderator closes a thread, that decision is final. The moderator will explain the reason behind closing a thread

If you feel a moderator has inappropriately closed a thread, please feel encouraged to PM him/her or anyone else on the moderating team to plead your case.  I promise that we will give you a fair hearing and may reconsider our actions.  Especially, if you feel that a particular moderator is abusing his/her position (EDIT: or is otherwise posting in a manner unfitting to his/her position) , PLEASE let another moderator know; nobody here is above the law.

About this, see my comment above about burning down a house to kill a fly. Like many said before, closing a thread should be a last resort. There are many ways a mod has to put a derailed thread back on track. And, of course, I fully agree with you, and appreciate that you guys are open to discuss your actions like that.

pvsage wrote:

and if any members then decide to open a new thread discussing why a previous thread has been closed, then that member will face a ban.

This part is/was a bit troublesome, and was rather successfully abused to troll the moderating team. sad  As I said above, the PM system is the best place to discuss these matters, but I understand that there are times when a moderating issue needs to be discussed in public; the "just a rant" thread started recently by CBizgreat! is one such example.  Incidentally, should the need for such a thread arise, the Feedback & Suggestions area is probably the best place for it (which is why I'm opening this thread here).

Like I said before, I think that part would be counterproductive, and I'm happy that you guys don't enforce it. It is excessive, to say the least.

Our moderators give their time freely, with little or no thanks and certainly no financial reward. They perform a difficult task at times, and therefore deserve our support as they carry out their moderating duties. We do not expect them to be vilified by the community for any decisions that they make.

I used to be a mod on a forum, and never been, nor ever seen any mod in here be vilified for doing their job. I have seen many mods be vilified on other forums, but that always happened as a result of those mods being unfair/abusive. That, as far as I'm concerned, has never happened in here.

Like I said: I don't think you have to worry about anything. Ultimately, it all rests on your shoulders. YOU will decide which rules to apply, and when. At that, being that YOU are the moderators on this forum, I'm absolutely not worried about anything.

EDIT: WTH is "Nuke"?

Last edited by Inodoro Pereyra (2013-09-06 17:58:19)

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#67 2013-09-06 18:21:37

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

^ Sorry, "Nuke" was a reference to the Alex Murphy avatar I had briefly changed to recently.  It's a fictional designer drug in Robocop 2.

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#68 2013-09-06 18:45:21

Inodoro Pereyra
#! Die Hard
From: Back in Buenos Aires
Registered: 2013-07-01
Posts: 844

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

pvsage wrote:

^ Sorry, "Nuke" was a reference to the Alex Murphy avatar I had briefly changed to recently.  It's a fictional designer drug in Robocop 2.

Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing it up. I do remember the movie drug now... tongue

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#69 2013-09-06 22:54:01

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

@Inodoro Pereyra

Very well put. I agree with the points that you made on certain issues...


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#70 2013-09-08 05:18:15

Inodoro Pereyra
#! Die Hard
From: Back in Buenos Aires
Registered: 2013-07-01
Posts: 844

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

^^^^^

Well, thank you.  smile

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#71 2013-09-08 05:32:00

mynis01
#! Die Hard
From: 127.0.0.1
Registered: 2010-07-02
Posts: 2,005

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

+1 mods. Keep doing what you're doing, and thank you.

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#72 2013-09-08 14:08:39

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

One thing which no one has yet addressed from your first post, pvsage:

pvsage wrote:

If you feel a moderator has inappropriately closed a thread, please feel encouraged to PM him/her or anyone else on the moderating team to plead your case.  I promise that we will give you a fair hearing and may reconsider our actions.  Especially, if you feel that a particular moderator is abusing his/her position (EDIT: or is otherwise posting in a manner unfitting to his/her position) , PLEASE let another moderator know; nobody here is above the law.

There is a danger here, I think, of people trying to go behind the back of the mod who closed the thread to sow dissension in the moderating team. I understand the need to hold moderators accountable for their actions, but I think that if one is appealing a closed thread, it should first and foremost be with the moderator who closed it; only if they are obviously being unreasonable should the matter be taken to another moderator.

Otherwise, my only suggestion is that there should be a stickied thread in Feedback & Suggestions where people can make comments about what moderators are doing right and wrong (inconsistency in enforcement between mods, for example), and suggest changes to the moderation policies. Perhaps it could be a monthly thread like the Screenshot Thread...

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#73 2013-09-11 23:49:07

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Actually, as long as the mods don`t delete me on anything linux-related, they are free to delete any post that looks like I`m drunk-posting, because even if the mods should be wrong about my state when posted, it`s doubtful that the world misses out on anything important, and I will always have the possibility to post more of that caracter, because, one thing is sure. I have not stopped drinking. O:)

Even if it`s daytime in the US, it might be night here in Norway, so the mods should always be on the alert, especially in the weekends. If I seem influenced on Friday, then the mods can take the Saturday off. 

However, if I for some reason seem sound and at my senses on Friday, then the mods really should double up on Saturday 8o

Edit: I forgot why I replied. But it came to me now. Having a sticky thread where the users can discuss the moderators and complaint about deleted posts may sound as a good idea, but I have very bad experiences with such threads in other forums...

Last edited by ew (2013-09-11 23:55:14)


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#74 2013-09-27 19:25:04

Linuxephus™
Banned
From: Reality Check 101.
Registered: 2013-09-11
Posts: 158

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I've read every last comment in this thread, including the 3 pages that comprises said thread.
Reads to me as if everything is in order and quite literally having most of the subject material well covered in all aspects currently.
'Tis quite delightfull to come upon a thread with intelligent conversation to the point that it requires me not to write a short novel on the subject, thus allowing me the laziness not to do that very thing. big_smile

P.S.-@Ew: I and you know each other from another Community hack related I believe.
Also in that same Community, we've spoken in IRC briefly as well.
Though the "who" escapes my memory momentarily.

Meanwhile, in related news: Staff Members for this particular Community act upon what they're tasked with by said Community, for the Community.
I've personally found no fault with decisions being made as such.
The simplest and most direct means by which to manage any given Community is to let the actions of each individual within said Community be the merit by which each is managed.
One and All know the difference betwixt Right and Wrong, regardless of opinions, viewpoints, or justification and rationalization of a wrong action.
And more to the point, All in this Community are Equal no matter what function each individual comprises to make up the whole of the Community.
To each their own task of which each is capable of performing.
To the Foundation Layer the Foundation.
To the Brick Layer the Laying of Bricks.
To the Carpenter the Carpentry.

P.S.S.-So much for not having something to add. yikes

Last edited by Linuxephus™ (2013-09-27 20:12:15)


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-Linux: Guerrilla UNIX Development...Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.-
-Linux: The Operating System With A C.L.U.E...Command Line User Environment.-

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#75 2013-09-27 23:01:05

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I`m always worried when someone seem to remember me from other forums, because I`m not always as nice as I am in this forum. I`m not sure that I participate in to many linux-forums though. I`ve only briefly participated in other linux-forums. I`m mostly on political forums, and then mainly on norwegian forums, where I can be among those that really can use the language to my benefit. In english my language skills tend to make me look like a drunk chimpanzee, and I`m never able to make my case in the same way as in my native language. Crunchbang is the only international community I participate somewhat actively in, because here it doesn`t mather if I`m perceived to have the mind of a chimp. In the #!-community everybody is accepted just as they seem to be big_smile


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