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#1 2013-08-04 07:48:07

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

Gameification theory says you can take any subject and make it challenging/competitive enough and then people will want to do it. To cut a long story short, do we really need to dumb down to reach a wider user base? Or can we just make it so that when you run Gentoo you beat your friends and the ISOs are only available by application or something like that?

The Ubuntu Wedge is a case in point. Supposedly having done so much to bring Linux to the masses, where did they go when they wanted backers for their great phone idea? To the community?

It's sexiness and not simplification that will bring Linux to a wider audience. When running it will make your friends jealous and when people of the opposite sex will want to be with you. Apple's draw is its aura of status and exclusitivity. Oh yeah - and "interoperability".

Linux doesn't have to be fun, easy or interesting. It just has to raise the status of those who use it. And then they'll be around it like flies around s***.

Last edited by intoCB (2013-08-04 20:32:35)

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2013-08-04 09:12:53

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

As NicePeter said in the Bill vs. Steve ERB, "A man uses the machines you build to sit down and pay his taxes.  A man uses the machines I build to listen to the Beatles while he relaxes."  No matter how much we do to try to make it about the OS/distro/DE, what it boils down to for the average user is "What can I do with it that I can't do with what I'm already using?"

Stupid sexy Linux. lol

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#3 2013-08-04 10:07:22

GekkoP
#! Junkie
From: Vicenza (Italy)
Registered: 2013-06-17
Posts: 297
Website

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

I keep working on my beautiful screenshots just to convince people Linux is better.  lol

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#4 2013-08-04 10:10:10

brontosaurusrex
#! Red Menace
Registered: 2012-06-15
Posts: 1,643

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

I just use terminology; interesting (instead of better) in a faith to get the correct type of person borged.

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#5 2013-08-04 10:22:47

fatmac
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-11-14
Posts: 1,948

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

I think you still need to be running BSD to have any 'street cred', Linux is 'run of the mill'.  ]:D

Last edited by fatmac (2013-08-04 10:23:10)


Linux since 1999
Currently:  AntiX, & Crunchbang.
A good general beginners book for Linux :- http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
A good Debian read :- http://debian-handbook.info/get/now/

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#6 2013-08-04 15:18:19

hashbanger
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2011-11-28
Posts: 243

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

GekkoP wrote:

I keep working on my beautiful screenshots just to convince people Linux is better.  lol

Not better than BSD then, as there is not much you can screenshot on Linux but not on BSD.
Except Unity, maybe.


FreeBSD | OpenBSD | Windows. Randomly lurking.
Decentralized #! eD2k/Kad mirror.

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#7 2013-08-04 16:01:16

antiv0rtex
#! Die Hard
From: Earth
Registered: 2012-10-05
Posts: 574

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

intoCB wrote:

When running it [snip] people of the opposite sex will want to be with you.

If only it worked that way in my life. wink

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#8 2013-08-04 16:44:52

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

intoCB wrote:

Gameification theory says you can take any subject and make it challenging/competitive enough and then people will want to do it.

The problem is that challenging for one person could be aggravating or tedious for another.

intoCB wrote:

It's sexiness and not simplification that will bring Linux to a wider audience.

Sexiness might attract people to Linux but will it be enough to get them to install, deal with the setup, and keep it?

intoCB wrote:

Apple's draw is its aura of status and exclusitivity. Oh yeah - and "interoperability".

Don't forget ease of use and (for some) the aesthetics of their computers.

intoCB wrote:

Linux doesn't have to be fun, easy or interesting. It just has to raise the status of those who use it.

Status is most often shown through wealth or fame. What exactly does Linux get you?

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#9 2013-08-04 16:51:00

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

anon wrote:

Sexiness might attract people to Linux but will it be enough to get them to install, deal with the setup, and keep it?

You're not married are you  lol

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#10 2013-08-04 16:54:10

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

Ok you caught me! :8

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#11 2013-08-04 17:02:15

annoyingbeggar
#! Junkie
From: Florida
Registered: 2013-05-30
Posts: 430

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

anonymous wrote:

Status is most often shown through wealth or fame.

(Weber 1946; see also Veblen 1899; Bourdieu 1979)


“I don't believe in charity. I believe in solidarity. Charity is so vertical. It goes from the top to the bottom. Solidarity is horizontal. It respects the other person. I have a lot to learn from other people.” - Eduardo Hughes Galeano

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#12 2013-08-04 17:15:45

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

1st off lmao IntoCB. big_smile

2nd jmo ... this falls into the same category as the "do we need more distros". Still unsure who this "we" you keep mentioning is exactly. As was pointed out in that other thread there is no central "we" or "they" with gnu/nix. It's opensource goodness. If there's a demand for it, someone will likely start addressing it one way or other. Plenty of distro's out that say they are "nix noob" friendly or what others might call dumbed down nix.

Plenty of others that don't make it easy and are upfront that they aren't "nix noob" friendly by design. Shrugs. Still thanks for the smile on this rainy Sun afternoon. Jmo ... nix will go-do-be whatever folks make of it.

Vll! smile


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#13 2013-08-04 18:41:54

phlebas
New Member
Registered: 2013-07-09
Posts: 8

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

Do we need to dumb down; no. There's plenty already dumbed down in gnu/linux world already yet it still doesn't have any traction with consumers. Why? Micro$hafts monopoly on OS and office software and this reason:

pvsage wrote:

No matter how much we do to try to make it about the OS/distro/DE, what it boils down to for the average user is "What can I do with it that I can't do with what I'm already using?"

Translating that into Mac-speak, you really need a "killer app" to sell a platform these days. And since almost all gnu/linux programs are free/opensource they are easily ported to other platforms. So we can't have a "killer app".

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#14 2013-08-04 18:52:31

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

anonymous wrote:

Status is most often shown through wealth or fame. What exactly does Linux get you?

That's the problem. That's why Ubuntu will not take over the world. It hasn't made Linux more desirable, only more social media/e-commerce friendly.

People of all intelligences and tastes learn to drive. People would learn to install Slackware/Gentoo/Arch if doing so resulted in something nice and wonderful. Their complexity has nothing to do with it.

Having said all that, I think Linux is really where people who use Linux want it.

Last edited by intoCB (2013-08-04 18:52:59)

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#15 2013-08-04 18:57:52

phlebas
New Member
Registered: 2013-07-09
Posts: 8

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

IntoCB wrote:

Having said all that, I think Linux is really where people who use Linux want it.

Yeah, installed on their routers and tivo boxes, silently working away whilst they remain oblivious.

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#16 2013-08-04 19:32:27

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

Again w this "we" chit ... When you say "we" on #! ... you're talking 2 Corenominal and the users of this distro, there is no "we" dude. Personally vote for letting gnu/nix take its road to wherever. Expecting that anyone @ the top will listen 2 you, is ignorant arrogance imo. There is no friggin "we" in this context. You wanna be somebody in the gnu/nixsphere ... be that person, earn it ... otherwise you're a nobody talking out of school and likely w/o any understanding of which you speak ...

Nobody is listening 2 you and nobody can blame them either imo. This "we" thing you keep referencing doesn't exist dood. Not in any explicit fashion anyway ... get over it. This "we" thing you keep referencing in real life doesn't exist either in terms of gnu/nix imo. Also get over that ... or don't, shrugs. Sorry coming out harsher than intended for the most part.


Vll! smile


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#17 2013-08-04 20:03:25

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

^You hurt my feelings.

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#18 2013-08-04 20:05:13

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

@ Bizkit

Your words will most likely fall upon deaf ears, friend.

Last edited by DebianJoe (2013-08-04 20:05:35)

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#19 2013-08-04 20:15:47

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

^What I wrote was my opinion. Am I not allowed an opinion? I don't want to be anything in the Linux community. Whatever gave you that idea? Believe it or not, I'm a very kind-hearted person and I wake up every day thinking how I can make the world a better place. That's all I want.

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#20 2013-08-04 21:14:45

annoyingbeggar
#! Junkie
From: Florida
Registered: 2013-05-30
Posts: 430

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

The biz brings up a really good point about representation that actually has some deep philosophical underpinnings. Agree overall with his post or not, it does offer something substantive to consider.

What is meant when the term "we" is used heterogeneous community such as the GNU/*nix community? Whose desires are going to be represented. The word "we" can be used in conversation with a discrete group, but an open forum posting could hardly be considered discretely defined.

The answer to the question "ho says GNU/Linux needs to be dumbed down" is simple: the people who say that. Challenging this idea using Game Theory proposes that the question is aimed more broadly than at this particular instance of the community in question. Additionally, using such a theory to derive a sort of "best practice" implies some sort of positivist aesthetic to the theory itself, which has its detractors.

That or I'm still mad for having to defend my use of the word "we" at a conference even though I was clearly using it to mean those of us sitting in that particular room.


“I don't believe in charity. I believe in solidarity. Charity is so vertical. It goes from the top to the bottom. Solidarity is horizontal. It respects the other person. I have a lot to learn from other people.” - Eduardo Hughes Galeano

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#21 2013-08-04 22:06:33

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

@CBizgreat! & intoCB:  You are two of our greatest advocates in the online community.  You also have two of the strongest personalities on this forum, and while there are great areas where your opinions overlap, there are a few points of contention between you two.  When you two disagree in one another's threads, this place starts to look like the Debian developers' mailing list, or worse, Congress.

I know that you both mean well and have the community's best interests at heart; to that end, it would be helpful if you could remember how easily you two p*ss each other off. 8o

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#22 2013-08-04 22:21:53

CBizgreat!
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-07-27
Posts: 1,865

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

Sincerely wasn't meant that way IntoCB ... Never had a reason to think you're anything other than a good person dude.
rs
And thanks JoeDebian ... never met but it's a good thing to consider you a friend ... thanks ... And further thanks AB ...

Whole things a mess and as usual should've kept mouth shut as usual I never friggin learn regardless. The we should do this, we should do that though again jmo when discussing gnu/nix there is no "we" anyway. We are end users and it's unlikely many will listen to what "we" think or have to say ...

Even Corenominal ... he's maintained a well thought of gnu/nix distro for years, be my guess nobody really listens to him either. Gotta say it too, it's not like he always listens to hiz own community. Have made suggestions many times that went ignored that could've/should've improved the distro, shrugs. He's lost some real gnu/nix talent for similar ... Machinebacon as an example I guess. Get's to the point where someone has spent enough time contributing that they likely expect consideration ? I dunno ... give up on this ... Was not meant to hurt your or anyone's feelings ... Was not the intent ... blahblahblah.


Vll!

PS ... dammit Pvsage posted in the interim. Never made it a secret I like Pvsage too. Ahhhh hell everyone take a deep breath or whatever ... We'll all survive I'm sure. big_smile

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2013-08-04 22:23:38)


Some common cbiz abbreviations. This will save me time and yet @ same time tell folks what the babble is supposed to mean.

Vll ! = ( Viva la gnu/Linux !)    Vl#!! = ( Viva la #! !)    Last but not least, UD ... OD ! = ( Use Debian ... or die !) tongue

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#23 2013-08-05 03:37:59

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

The purpose of this thread was not to establish the existence of a "we" that could act and take decisions but just to think about the premise of easy-to-use distributions. As chat.

@CBizgreat! - That you say this or that to me, doesn't really matter - and you certainly didn't hurt my feelings. However, your post - the one in the middle - felt negative. Your babbling is the stuff of legends on these forums but it's not usually negative. If there's something driving the change, something liquid, you might want to watch that.

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#24 2013-08-05 04:00:23

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

One of the best distro developers we know wrote this:

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 55#p201355

And I'm inclined to believe it.


Res publica non dominetur | Larry the CrunchBang Guy speaks of the pompetous of CrunchBang

CrunchBang Forum moderator

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#25 2013-08-05 08:50:12

fatmac
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-11-14
Posts: 1,948

Re: Who says Linux needs to dumb down?

As I see it, #! is corenominal's personal distro that he is sharing with us.

If he sees fit to include, for example, Abiword, (that some people don't like), that's fine by me, I can remove it, no problem.

If this distro didn't do the things I want to do, I will change bits of it to my liking, else, I will use another distro.

Linux (FOSS) is all about not being tied in, you have the choice to make of it what you will, & nobody will complain, (in theory  big_smile  ).

Certain members of this forum like to create threads, it seems to be 'their thing', no problem, I don't have to read or respond to them.

And that my friends, is the way it should be. We have moderators to do the dirty work of closing threads or reminding posters of the 'niceties' expected of them, let them decide. (It sometimes helps to 'report' a thread if you feel something may not be right.)

Enjoy your day.


Linux since 1999
Currently:  AntiX, & Crunchbang.
A good general beginners book for Linux :- http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
A good Debian read :- http://debian-handbook.info/get/now/

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