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#1 2013-05-08 17:10:36

xaos52
The Good Doctor
From: Planet of the @s
Registered: 2011-06-24
Posts: 4,602

WARNING for users tracking Sid.

From lists.debian.org

Yes.  Now that Wheezy has released Sid is once again very Unstable.

The last year that Sid has been frozen has made Sid relatively
"stable".  But now the floodgates are open again and everyone is
pushing changes, sometimes untested changes, into Sid again.  For the
next few months it will be exceptionally rough there as a year's worth
of pending disruptive changes are pushed through.  If you are using
Sid then you must be able to track problems in the BTS and be able to
use snapshot.debian.org to recover previous versions of packages and
return to them as bugs appear.  You might consider using Testing
Jessie instead as it will be somewhat insulated from the thrash in
Unstable Sid.

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2013-05-08 17:38:05

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

and who doesn't love a good 'thrashing' in unstable  ]:D

'when you're going through hell, keep going  - Winston Churchill'
oops wrong thread  lol

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#3 2013-05-08 17:40:42

slartie
#! Member
Registered: 2013-05-06
Posts: 53

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

I showed up for the .debs, I stayed for the rollercoaster rides.

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#4 2013-05-08 18:57:54

gurtid
#! Junkie
From: NEW ZEALAND
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 379

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

xaos52 wrote:

Aha!!!!!!!!!!!!! - i have been bitten already smile


all your Base are belong to us

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#5 2013-05-08 19:02:21

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

Well, so far so good. I have survived the first few days, with only a minor breakage that was easy to fix. I also suppose that downgrading to Jessie is a dangerous process in itself, perhaps just as dangerous as staying on Sid?

Besides, my HD4000 is way better supported in SID, and systemd performs a lot better. Haven`t tried systemd in Jessie, but with Wheezy systemd is pointless, it might even slow down both boot and shutoff... With no configuration from my side, the difference in boot-time using systemd on Wheezy vs Sid, is a whopping 11 seconds improvement. 16 seconds vs 5 seconds(ssd)...


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#6 2013-05-08 21:27:33

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

i have had a few oddnesses. managed to edit a few .confs seems ok

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#7 2013-05-08 23:52:14

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

I viped out my ssd and started from scratch. I intended to use CB as a master-distro to handle grub, and also where all the other distros partitions get mounted so that I can edit every single one from the CB-master. A nice idea, but because Wheezy didn`t work to well with systemd, I fell for the temptation of installing kernel 3.9.0 and sidify it. Before the freeze was lifted this wouldn`t be a issue, but now I`m not that cocky anymore, because after the last dist-upgrade I get xorg-issues, and logout doesn`t take me to slim, but to tty1, where I caan login and startx, and that works, but when I try to logout again, I get a long logfile with lots of issues, something about pixman 0.26 and other stuff...

So when I intended to have a CB-master install, and another experimental install, I kind of regret that I went for Sid on what should be the rock solid master-distro. I guess I`ve been fooled and spoiled by the fact that Sid has been relatively stable for a long time, as the good doctor warned us about, but I did it yesterday, so he was to late to warn me, lol. Well, I have just started the new scheme for this pc, only the cb-master is installed, so I think that I cut my losses and reformat everything, and choose Jessie for my CB-master. Off I go, reinstall everything. I could use this install as my experimental install, but I`m so picky that I want the original order that I planned out, namely:

sda1 - EFI
sda2 - CB-master
sda3 - CB-experimental
sda4 - Distro 2(permanent spot)
sda5 - Distrohopper 1
sda6 - Distrohopper 2
sda7 - Reserved Bios Boot Area
sda8 - Filedrop

Well, enough talk, let`s do it. Sorry peers, I will not be seeding in the next few hours:)


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#8 2013-05-09 00:35:03

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

Tracking SID with listbugs and a keen eye has been no issue even though there has been monumental changes...

The network issue was from one dev of ifupdown who admitted he failed to do several tests and 'would never release something in the middle of the night again'... it was fixed a few hours later and all that was needed for a temporary fix was to comment out auto lo from /etc/network/interfaces.  This was all over the net and IRC's

Most of us who track SID have several partitions for testing along with production... I have 17 partitions with different levels of VSIDO on it to see what is going on and when there is an issue like what happened with ifupdown, I boot to another working instance and find the solution... With several hundred users, so far there has not been anything reported that is killing anything in VSIDO land...

I agree that the next couple of weeks will be fun, but with safety measures in place and knowing how to find a fix to an issue (debian buglists, search for issues in the last 24 hours with google) and a watchful eye, most should be harmless

What I am finding a nuisance more than anything is the sid repos being unavailable during all this shifting around, but that is par for the course after a freeze has been lifted

Thanks for that link xaos52


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

I dev VSIDO

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#9 2013-05-09 01:17:19

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

Well, now I`m back up with a more stable CB-install as my master-distro. All configured and looks the same, but a bit more stale. Well, well, probably the most sensible thing to do, instead of having to do it at a later stage. So now I can install a unstable and experimental version of CB in another partition, and embrace the rocky road without any fear at all:))


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#10 2013-05-09 03:08:04

Ozitraveller
#! Junkie
From: Less is More!
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 289
Website

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

I'm also tracking sid and checking any listbugs message carefully and the message from update and upgrade. just in case there are repo problems. Also aborting an upgrade until the next day or 2 is an option. So far, nothing has broken. cool

sudo apt-get install apt-listbugs

Patience, when in doubt don't!

Last edited by Ozitraveller (2013-05-09 03:08:52)

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#11 2013-05-09 11:31:33

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

Just curious. Now I`m tracking Jessie instead of Sid for my master-install, but being a newbie I don`t know how conservative Debian is before letting new kernels into testing. I assume that Jessie started out as a copy of Wheezy and therefore is at kernel 3.2.0.4 still, but me being used to the newest siduction kernels, feel that this is a bit old. So I guess what I`m asking is what pace I should expect the newer kernels. Will Jessie go trough each and every kernel available above 3.2.0.4, or could i hope for a giant jump to 3.4 or 3.5 kernels in the near future?

Last edited by ew (2013-05-09 13:36:20)


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#12 2013-05-09 17:42:22

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

I don't care for kernels. That said:
I am pretty sure that the kernel is the on exception where you can easily use a package from testing or sid if you are running stable (else you don't want to do it).

If you are running testing, like you say, you can run a mixed testing unstable system anyway. Set testing to be the default in /etc/apt/apt.conf, install the desired kernel with "apt-get install -s sid <name>" and call it a day.

And:
http://packages.debian.org/search?suite … -1-686-pae
In other words: You can always go to packages.debian.org and check there (if a package/version is not in Sid, than it will not arrive in testing neither, will it?).

Why not stick to the liquorix/siduction/other-shiny-new-stuff kernels, btw?

-
In fact most users i would consider to be experienced ran (and probably still run) a mixed testing unstable system (I don't. That might mean that  a) i am not experienced or b) i am too lazy to fiddle with the files and simply use a good backup solution). I see nothing wrong with running Debian stable neither, but that is me.

-
above you asked about downgrading from sid to testing. Should be easy (depending on the packages involved it is just a matter of time, usually 10 days). Remove the line for sid, insert the one for testing, and wait. No? (i never did this as i never ran testing long enough).  Even if that was wrong it should still be relatively easy.

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#13 2013-05-09 20:06:16

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

wow i fixed that ifupdown all on my own  smile
was kinda obvious - error in line 5 or something, comment that line out. works.
anyway carry on 8)

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#14 2013-05-09 20:40:32

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

nadir wrote:

I don't care for kernels. That said:
I am pretty sure that the kernel is the on exception where you can easily use a package from testing or sid if you are running stable (else you don't want to do it).

If you are running testing, like you say, you can run a mixed testing unstable system anyway. Set testing to be the default in /etc/apt/apt.conf, install the desired kernel with "apt-get install -s sid <name>" and call it a day.

And:
http://packages.debian.org/search?suite … -1-686-pae
In other words: You can always go to packages.debian.org and check there (if a package/version is not in Sid, than it will not arrive in testing neither, will it?).

Why not stick to the liquorix/siduction/other-shiny-new-stuff kernels, btw?

-
In fact most users i would consider to be experienced ran (and probably still run) a mixed testing unstable system (I don't. That might mean that  a) i am not experienced or b) i am too lazy to fiddle with the files and simply use a good backup solution). I see nothing wrong with running Debian stable neither, but that is me.

-
above you asked about downgrading from sid to testing. Should be easy (depending on the packages involved it is just a matter of time, usually 10 days). Remove the line for sid, insert the one for testing, and wait. No? (i never did this as i never ran testing long enough).  Even if that was wrong it should still be relatively easy.

Ok, thanks. Then I learned something new. I have linked the kernels to the releases in a way that I don`t need to do. I didn`t know that I in theory could use kernel 3.9.0 on stable or testing, and that it would work well...

Anyways, I`ve already reinstalled Crunchbang, changed the sources to Jessie and did the dist-upgrade, so I don`t get to find out if it would work do downgrade from Sid to Jessie. I couldn`t wait for 10 days anyway, because I got xorg-issues after the last dist-upgrade in Sid. Usually I have no problem with that, I fix issues as they come, or they fix themselves after the next dist-upgrade. But for this install I need it to be 100% stable, because this isn`t supposed to be a shiny install to flaunt all my bloat, but a stable master-distro that handles the boot for all the other distros, and where I mount all the partitions for the other distros, so that I easily can access the filesystems for all the other distros, when they for some reason don`t boot, or in situations where I would need to use a live-cd...

As I`ve only finished installing the master-distro, and none of the other distros, I felt it was best to reinstall the master-distro and keep it somewhat stable. Since that install is redundant as a master-distro if it`s unstable or buggy. After all, I`m going to have another CB-install on the same ssd, and that`s the one I intend to play with. With the newest kernels, Gnome 3 and lots of other bloated bling. It doesn`t make any sense to have a master and a experimental install if the master ends up to be just as experimental:)


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#15 2013-05-09 20:42:17

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

nadir wrote:

I don't care for kernels. That said:
I am pretty sure that the kernel is the on exception where you can easily use a package from testing or sid if you are running stable (else you don't want to do it).

If you are running testing, like you say, you can run a mixed testing unstable system anyway. Set testing to be the default in /etc/apt/apt.conf, install the desired kernel with "apt-get install -s sid <name>" and call it a day.

And:
http://packages.debian.org/search?suite … -1-686-pae
In other words: You can always go to packages.debian.org and check there (if a package/version is not in Sid, than it will not arrive in testing neither, will it?).

Why not stick to the liquorix/siduction/other-shiny-new-stuff kernels, btw?

-
In fact most users i would consider to be experienced ran (and probably still run) a mixed testing unstable system (I don't. That might mean that  a) i am not experienced or b) i am too lazy to fiddle with the files and simply use a good backup solution). I see nothing wrong with running Debian stable neither, but that is me.

-
above you asked about downgrading from sid to testing. Should be easy (depending on the packages involved it is just a matter of time, usually 10 days). Remove the line for sid, insert the one for testing, and wait. No? (i never did this as i never ran testing long enough).  Even if that was wrong it should still be relatively easy.

Ok, thanks. Then I learned something new. I have linked the kernels to the releases in a way that I don`t need to do. I didn`t know that I in theory could use kernel 3.9.0 on stable or testing, and that it would work well...

Anyways, I`ve already reinstalled Crunchbang, changed the sources to Jessie and did the dist-upgrade, so I don`t get to find out if it would work do downgrade from Sid to Jessie. I couldn`t wait for 10 days anyway, because I got xorg-issues after the last dist-upgrade in Sid. Usually I have no problem with that, I fix issues as they come, or they fix themselves after the next dist-upgrade. But for this install I need it to be 100% stable, because this isn`t supposed to be a shiny install to flaunt all my bloat, but a stable master-distro that handles the boot for all the other distros, and where I mount all the partitions for the other distros, so that I easily can access the filesystems for all the other distros, when they for some reason don`t boot, or in situations where I would need to use a live-cd...

As I`ve only finished installing the master-distro, and none of the other distros, I felt it was best to reinstall the master-distro and keep it somewhat stable. Since that install is redundant as a master-distro if it`s unstable or buggy. After all, I`m going to have another CB-install on the same ssd, and that`s the one I intend to play with. With the newest kernels, Gnome 3 and lots of other bloated bling. It doesn`t make any sense to have a master and a experimental install if the master ends up to be just as experimental:)


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#16 2013-05-09 21:26:26

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

Your reasoning makes sense to me
(what i understand is that you want one system to be really stable).
I do it similar. I got one box on which i do my main work. Of that box i take care, and i repair it no matter how long it takes, and i run backups of it (so i can always use the backup). I could also do what you described, my point is just to have one box of which i am sure.

Just as a side note: In my opinion testing has the "buffer" of the ten days. If no bugs are reported, then packages come from sid to testing. That "buffer" usually works quite well, and testing is quite stable. But there is a problem: Due to dependency handling it might be that a bug in testing will stay for quite long while it is solved in sid very fast.
Like said above: For me the easy solution is to run sid or, if i don't want that, to run stable (which many don't want for good and well known reasons). Hence some recommend the mixture of testing and sid (But if one never runs in such a case, persistent bug in testing, then there is probably no reason to do it). Like said: really just some chat, what i think, what i have heard, etc. And, of course, i can only assume that crunchbang works similar to debian, especially in the long run (i guess yes, but i simply don't know).



I am quite sure about what i wrote about kernels, but don't take my word for it (Like said: i don't fool much with kernels. I tried what i said, it worked well, but i wouldn't bet. It might be worth a try, if one wants that).

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#17 2013-05-09 23:21:40

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

nadir wrote:

Your reasoning makes sense to me
(what i understand is that you want one system to be really stable).
I do it similar. I got one box on which i do my main work. Of that box i take care, and i repair it no matter how long it takes, and i run backups of it (so i can always use the backup). I could also do what you described, my point is just to have one box of which i am sure.

Just as a side note: In my opinion testing has the "buffer" of the ten days. If no bugs are reported, then packages come from sid to testing. That "buffer" usually works quite well, and testing is quite stable. But there is a problem: Due to dependency handling it might be that a bug in testing will stay for quite long while it is solved in sid very fast.
Like said above: For me the easy solution is to run sid or, if i don't want that, to run stable (which many don't want for good and well known reasons). Hence some recommend the mixture of testing and sid (But if one never runs in such a case, persistent bug in testing, then there is probably no reason to do it). Like said: really just some chat, what i think, what i have heard, etc. And, of course, i can only assume that crunchbang works similar to debian, especially in the long run (i guess yes, but i simply don't know).



I am quite sure about what i wrote about kernels, but don't take my word for it (Like said: i don't fool much with kernels. I tried what i said, it worked well, but i wouldn't bet. It might be worth a try, if one wants that).

I hear you, and I agree. Sid is the only option, especially considering that my new hardware isn`t supported to well in Wheezy. I just now installed another CB-install on the same computer, upgraded it to sid, and have Siduction kernel 3.9.1, and Debian 3.8.1, which I will keep both of for a while, to see if I prefer the Siduction or Debian kernels. What I already can say is that my computer performs a lot better with Sid than Wheezy, but I haven`t deared to try if I got the same issue that caused me to reinstall the other install. And I guess I can stay on Jessie on my stable install for a little while, just to see if it gets better than it is for me now.

But so far it`s a downer to use Jessie. It boots slower, systemd doesn`t perform to well..., and my wifi connection is slower and more unstable with lower signal rate... I get a stable 80-90% with Sid, and only 40-60% with Wheezy/Jessie...


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#18 2013-05-11 00:11:02

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

Just a quick note to inform that my reasons for removing my Sid-install was totally unfounded. It turns out that after the dist-upgrade to SID, I get logout-issues. The first time I log out, it drops me to tty, and I have to login again and startx, then I`m up again. If I directly try to logout once more, I get a warning messages and I loose the connection to the Xserver. But it`s just to startx, and I`m up again. So the problem is that logout doesn`t provide the slim login-screen, and the cb-exit script works fine, so that`s not the issue, and I get the slim login-screen after a reboot. It`s only missing on logout.

Anyway, I installed a new CB-Siduction/sid install today(kernel 3.9.1) and did the dist-upgrade, and obviously got the exact same logout issue that caused me to remove my last install. This time I wouldn`t do that, but try to fix it instead. I went trough a lot of stuff, but nothing seemed to help. Then as a last attempt I decided to install lightdm, and "voila", then everything worked perfect.

I don`t know what the dist-upgrade does with slim or any configuration related to slim. I have no urge to find it out, because lightdm is light enough, and much better... But in case others might get logout-issues after upgrading to Sid, then guide your attention to slim... No point in reinstalling just because of a slim issue:)

Last edited by ew (2013-05-11 00:14:02)


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#19 2013-05-11 09:12:31

xaos52
The Good Doctor
From: Planet of the @s
Registered: 2011-06-24
Posts: 4,602

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

@ew: this deserves a thread of its own. It would make it easier to find for users that run into the same problem.

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#20 2013-05-13 05:33:25

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: WARNING for users tracking Sid.

xaos52 wrote:

From lists.debian.org

Yes.  Now that Wheezy has released Sid is once again very Unstable.

The last year that Sid has been frozen has made Sid relatively
"stable".  But now the floodgates are open again and everyone is
pushing changes, sometimes untested changes, into Sid again.  For the
next few months it will be exceptionally rough there as a year's worth
of pending disruptive changes are pushed through.  If you are using
Sid then you must be able to track problems in the BTS and be able to
use snapshot.debian.org to recover previous versions of packages and
return to them as bugs appear.  You might consider using Testing
Jessie instead as it will be somewhat insulated from the thrash in
Unstable Sid.

Thanks, xaos52.  For others who are tracking Sid, you also might consider reading the "Info on Updating" section near the end of machinebacon's fine post "HowTo: Upgrade the #! Point Release to Sid"; http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic. … 07#p166507

Last edited by KrunchTime (2013-05-13 05:44:26)


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