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#76 2013-05-08 20:28:38

slartie
#! Member
Registered: 2013-05-06
Posts: 53

Re: Ideas for Janice

Would there be some sense in having a full package list thrown up on pastebin or github, just to have a reference? (that is, a list of what #! contains out of the box as of the latest build)

Last edited by slartie (2013-05-08 20:29:21)

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#77 2013-05-08 20:31:14

Miggs
New Member
Registered: 2013-03-22
Posts: 9

Re: Ideas for Janice

Unia wrote:
Miggs wrote:
slartie wrote:

@miggs - Do you have any examples of community driven distros that work like that, or are just remotely like what you're proposing. I'd like to see it.

Debian?

@Unia: Oh, come on. Changing stuff would only occur in pretesting phases.. like now.

It happened before that every point release of #! had a different browser (I believe Chromium vs Iceweasel vs Firefox?). Of course I am exaggerating, but this is basically what your full democracy would come down to: applications are so bound to personal preference that we could never decide on it.

I think it's already awesome Corenominal opened this topic to listen to us. Is there any other distro out there that does this?

Gentoo maybe? My "full democracy" actually falls to meritocracy & some democracy if you read what I wrote. Meritocracy for those who contribute, those who know how to deal with operating systems and prove to be trustful.. Democracy should fall to bogus decisions you already stated like a browser or a music player. Wouldn't it be logical to make an OS that has as defaults most of its users's default to?

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#78 2013-05-08 20:34:24

slartie
#! Member
Registered: 2013-05-06
Posts: 53

Re: Ideas for Janice

Miggs wrote:

snip ... Wouldn't it be logical to make an OS that has as defaults most of its users's default to?

Logical perhaps, but imho impossible, and one of the reasons (if not THE reason) why so many different distros exist in the first place.

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#79 2013-05-08 20:40:43

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

Can we get back on-topic now? This will only end up in one of those typical Debian flamewars big_smile


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#80 2013-05-08 20:44:25

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: Ideas for Janice

One thing someone mentioned earlier that would be great is menus that updated themselves. I have seen these in Manjaro Openbox and it would be a really nice feature.

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#81 2013-05-08 20:44:42

jbar
New Member
Registered: 2013-03-05
Posts: 7

Re: Ideas for Janice

I would like an "Install only free software" option during #! installation.

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#82 2013-05-08 20:47:59

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: Ideas for Janice

intoCB wrote:

One thing someone mentioned earlier that would be great is menus that updated themselves. I have seen these in Manjaro Openbox and it would be a really nice feature.

I know this gets raised a lot, but one of the things I like about OB is that menus DON'T get auto-updated! I can arrange them how I like


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#83 2013-05-08 21:05:32

Miggs
New Member
Registered: 2013-03-22
Posts: 9

Re: Ideas for Janice

@slartie: Actually I find the Debian model the best in town. Committees or not, they have a lot of people who take decisions.. Take for example the KDE team. What people do you think take decisions there? Probably KDE packagers/developers because they know best in terms of that. How does CN take systemd vs init scripts decision? He's possibly not an expert in that. Why not let people who know better decide there? So what there are flame wars? Debating is a good thing. And Debian leaders care about what is popular too. They have the popularity contest:

http://popcon.debian.org/README wrote:

With information from enough people, we can
determine which packages are most often used, which are often installed but
not used, and which are nearly never used.  That way, we can help people
make decisions about which packages should fit on the first Debian install
CD, for example, or which packages are most important for an FTP mirror site
to keep.

@Unia: I didn't mean to start a flame war (at least not in this thread). I just stated my idea for Janice. We should probably move if there's something left to say.

Last edited by Miggs (2013-05-08 21:09:06)

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#84 2013-05-08 21:31:09

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,634
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

Miggs wrote:

@Unia: I didn't mean to start a flame war (at least not in this thread). I just stated my idea for Janice. We should probably move if there's something left to say.

It's all good wink


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#85 2013-05-08 21:38:47

ZAP
#! Junkie
Registered: 2009-01-31
Posts: 350

Re: Ideas for Janice

+1 something prettier than xscreensaver for those who need to lock their screens (it's fugly enough to even bother me)
+1 for touchpad disabled while typing (this is really essential)
+1 for the option to install smxi (will keep #! zooming)
+1 for FlatStudio (that's a sharp look)

I'd really love it if the installer defaulted to full-disk encryption (or at least included some text on why people ought to consider using it).

I install Pidgin, Filezilla, and Chrome right away, so I'd prefer those as defaults (tho I don't mind installing them on my own).

I use GIMP but it is huge and could be installed by them that want it. I never use Abiword anymore and its function is duplicated by LO Writer (which I do use), so I'd leave that out also. I'd love to have the option to install the deb-multimedia repo and key on install also (I always need things from there).

I know it's sacrilegious to say this, but I'm not a person who sees much value in conky (when would I ever see my desktop anyway?), so I'd rather that be an option than a default.

And I actually think a lot of folks might appreciate redshift (plus scripts to launch and quit it) by default. It's teeny and great for late-night hackathons. And we all know that #! is a late-night hackathon distro.

And yes to any and all improvements/extensions to aero-snap or tiling behavior. Especially now that every other OS is moving towards only letting you see one window at a time, I think this is a real usability distinction. But the Windows 7 implementation is still better than what's in Waldorf, and I know that #! can beat that.

But of course all this is dithering around the edges, since I'm overwhelmingly pleased with Waldorf and if you didn't change anything I'd remain that way.

Last edited by ZAP (2013-05-08 21:42:10)

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#86 2013-05-08 21:57:46

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,131
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

Blimey, I'm loving this discussion, nice work smile


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#87 2013-05-08 22:18:48

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

^ You supplied the canvas, we are just painting away....  wink


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#88 2013-05-08 22:52:33

Menschenkind
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2011-08-20
Posts: 203

Re: Ideas for Janice

This got a little buried under the git/Debian string:

SabreWolfy wrote:

We've discussed default apps before -- every program is just an apt-get away. [...] I don't think anyone uses a distro without adding or removing something, so its' really easy just to do that after an install anyway.

versus

kozimodo wrote:
  1. I'm happy to leave things like gimp, abiword/libreoffice, etc. out -- I can install such on my own.  But applications that contribute heavily to the look/feel/functionality should be fixed.  For example, thunar vs spacefm.

I find both of these opinions important and not even contradictory. In my opinion, it would be great to have a little less from the beginning on. Everyone gets to cb-welcome anyway.
Hence, I suggested scraping Abiword instead of replacing it and agree on the same for gnumeric. Make GIMP optional, adding it to cb-welcome. I didn't like the optional software suggestions in OB-menu either. Dropbox? LO? Keep all that for the welcome-script. If I wanted or needed this software, I would install it anyway. If I didn't want it, I have to unclutter the menu even more. While I'm sure many people will say the opposite, I hardly ever used pre-installed software from the "Network"-menu. SSH? Remote stuff? Gigolo? Spare me, please – I can't even remove it, since I have so few knowledge about this kind of applications that I might actually break something. I even did when trying to remove the "Network"-shortcut from Thunar. I removed gvfs, making my other partitions unmountable, while I only should have removed gvfs-backend. Don't worry, I fixed it, but boy was I annoyed. That wasn't even necessary in the first place. Add "Do you need local networks or remote file management?" to cb-welcome, if you wish.
Of course, I don't want #! to become Arch or something. What I expect from using cb is a rock solid, minimal, beatiful, yet highly customizable foundation, the perfect substructure for building my own workplace on top. And that's what I get and that's really awesome. But you were asking, so I may ask in return: Can #! become a little more minimalistic without losing it's polished surface and the solid foundation? I think that's possible without taking away necessary software from beginners. I would suggest to scrap some of the special-purpose-software – or move it to cb-wecome, since advanced users definitely will start to customize the system to their needs  and "every program is just an apt-get away", as SabreWolfy said. Keep the usability even for beginners as high as it currently is by deploying a high standard of base applications, while thinking about removing some of the not-so-important stuff (*cough* clutter *cough*). After all, everyone's asking for a CD-image anyway.

That's the only way #! might still be improved in my opionion, which says a lot about the current state. It's awesome. When in doubt, don't change too much at all, please.

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#89 2013-05-08 23:00:26

ZAP
#! Junkie
Registered: 2009-01-31
Posts: 350

Re: Ideas for Janice

@Menschenkind: I think you're on to something here. I recently introduced a friend to #!, and although he's very linux-savvy and has used virtually every major distro out there, the welcome script was a new and very "welcome" concept to him. So perhaps rather than absolutely deciding all of these things for one standard iso, as many as possible should be options in the welcome menu.

I also agree about not including optional installs in the Openbox menu - those are just more things to remove from there.

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#90 2013-05-08 23:39:15

th3pun15h3r
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-11-22
Posts: 571

Re: Ideas for Janice

So it looks like a more revamped #! welcome screen with options to install auto update menu or not etc?  Be better than make several different editions.

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#91 2013-05-09 00:15:17

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: Ideas for Janice

Menschenkind wrote:

.... What I expect from using cb is a rock solid, minimal, beatiful, yet highly customizable foundation, the perfect substructure for building my own workplace on top. And that's what I get and that's really awesome. But you were asking, so I may ask in return: Can #! become a little more minimalistic without losing it's polished surface and the solid foundation? I think that's possible without taking away necessary software from beginners. I would suggest to scrap some of the special-purpose-software – or move it to cb-wecome, since advanced users definitely will start to customize the system to their needs  and "every program is just an apt-get away", as SabreWolfy said. Keep the usability even for beginners as high as it currently is by deploying a high standard of base applications, while thinking about removing some of the not-so-important stuff (*cough* clutter *cough*). After all, everyone's asking for a CD-image anyway.

That's the only way #! might still be improved in my opionion, which says a lot about the current state. It's awesome. When in doubt, don't change too much at all, please.

+1, nicely said smile


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#92 2013-05-09 00:59:27

august
#! Member
From: Brooklyn
Registered: 2011-05-26
Posts: 62

Re: Ideas for Janice

And I want a pony!

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#93 2013-05-09 01:01:58

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

I dev VSIDO

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#94 2013-05-09 02:37:03

Loop
New Member
From: Denver
Registered: 2013-04-19
Posts: 7

Re: Ideas for Janice

My two cents:
+1 for touchpad disabled while typing
+1 for Menschenkind's novel, all of it wink
+1 for CD-Image iso
#! Welcome Script is the best. Lighter at download / install, app options at first start up.
Love Waldorf, looking forward to Janice!

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#95 2013-05-09 03:37:05

Ramnode
New Member
Registered: 2013-05-09
Posts: 1

Re: Ideas for Janice

That would be amazing if you could implement this http://www.infinality.net.

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#96 2013-05-09 03:41:59

samdraz
#! CrunchBanger
From: Earth
Registered: 2013-03-10
Posts: 233
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

new features for compton

This one will provide out of box features from debian
Update Graphics stack for more efficient use of power for intel processors
https://01.org/linuxgraphics/downloads

Last edited by samdraz (2013-05-09 03:49:08)

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#97 2013-05-09 04:55:31

DapperMe17
#! CrunchBanger
From: Todd's Gang
Registered: 2012-10-19
Posts: 221

Re: Ideas for Janice

...hard to improve on perfection wink

+1 systemd
+1 spacefm (customized look & custom actions, incorporate search)
+1 slim (or a clean, clutter-free, lightweight alternative)
+1 bum
+1 smxi
+1 kernel remover
+1 remastersys-esque backup script
+1 cb-welcome options

DuckDuckGo Lite as the default search (unless of course, the current provides Philip with a revenue stream)
Radiotray

Thanks again, Philip.

cool

Last edited by DapperMe17 (2013-05-09 05:08:02)

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#98 2013-05-09 05:00:19

th3pun15h3r
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2011-11-22
Posts: 571

Re: Ideas for Janice

ooo

+1 on remastersys, cb-welcome options and kernel remover or heck and easy gui installer for kernel or script?

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#99 2013-05-09 08:54:27

saneks
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2009-10-01
Posts: 1,020

Re: Ideas for Janice

+1 for easy remastering your install

and maybe easy persistence for usb-live system users. maybe just a menu option with "save changes to live system" or when when logging out..  I love the boot fresh/boot customized system/boot to ram options in porteus.. but I understand if live is not the main emphasis in the crunchbang development
---

regarding the remove this/that discussion..

I use crunchbang a lot for old computers. Having the 700mb limit for old systems with cd only would be great. so I say: remove all the unneeded stuff... -- oops, did i say that??.

here's the thing: I always love distros that come with high functionality out of the box when using them as a live system without need to installing stuff. or just install it and everything is there.. now with crunchbang as it is, I am good to go and can just start working on stuff on any computer. and that is just brilliant!

I think what makes #! so special is just the right balance between high usability while being really simplistic and beautifully thought out.

- So I say keep gimp, abiword (or something more stable), and even add a scanning programm. - I dont care if #! is 720 or 800mb big when I need a usb key anyway.

A good balance would be a <700mb minimal install for old non-pae systems with all the design choices that make crunchbang so good.. and just minimal apps, like a terminal, text editor, a media player, small browser. basta. or maybe only terminal and a postinstall script for everything else (like: choose #! standard setup / install your own stuff).

I say: since we are over the cd limit anyway, keep the full version with all the good stuff we work with on the other versions that need a usb or dvd anyway..

and please stay close to the waldorf design. the window decoration and gui design. it is beautiful as it is. just add some more modern ob themes as a option..

Last edited by saneks (2013-05-09 09:22:39)


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#100 2013-05-09 09:44:25

machinebacon
#! unstable
From: China
Registered: 2009-07-02
Posts: 6,826
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

I'd recommend systemd and the option to install an alternative kernel (good old Liquorix days), as well as the choice to track Jessie or Sid in the cb-welcome script. An Openbox entry to store the user's theme configurations (wallpaper, gtkrc, ob) on an external service (github?) might be interesting, considering the huge interest in each others setups.

Good luck, Janice!  {)

Edit: Oh, and of course bring the Lite menu entries (newsbeuter, mutt, and stuff  :8 ) back... Hehe....

Last edited by machinebacon (2013-05-09 09:45:38)


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