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#1 2013-04-24 21:49:39

VDP76
#! Bean Roaster
Registered: 2012-04-12
Posts: 840

Time to (release) party! ;)

gotwheezy.jpg

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#2 2013-04-24 22:41:35

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

VDP76 wrote:

http://s1.postimg.org/m4ikw4umj/gotwheezy.jpg

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What`s the excitement about? A release that`s already to old to run on my new pc? Debian has to watch itself now, because they are falling way behind with the linux-kernels, and are not in sync with the hardware... that are sold today. Things move faster today, and Debian has to loosen their conservatism in order to stay current.


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#3 2013-04-24 23:26:56

codingman
#! Junkie
From: Darkstar
Registered: 2013-03-22
Posts: 356

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

^Agreed.

I think Debian is starting to get on my nerves. Releases aren't often, and they fall to old kernels, I will never use Debian Stable again even if somebody paid me to. Debian needs to loosen up if it wants to actually have a spot in the linux world. Their target audience is now old geezers that want to be stingy and stay with old hardware. The technology realm has left debian in the dust, going towards more user friendly distributions like Ubuntu and Crunchbang. Not that I agree with Ubuntu, but at least it has a much faster release cycle, and welcomes new users to linux.


U iz not goin to getz an anzer frm me if u tip lik dis  mad

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#4 2013-04-24 23:58:12

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

^Yes. It`s a real issue with Debian. Now I`m not completely sure what kernel that managed to get into wheezy, but a release with anything older than 3.5 kernels is a redundant release, a complete waste of effort and resources... If Wheezy comes out with a 3.2 kernel then I will go so far as to say that it is a disgrace, almost provocing for anyone with a laptop newer than 2010.

Now it`s no real issues with running Unstable, but that kind of tells you how slow and conservative Debian really is. There is absolutely no reason why kernel 3-5-3.6 isn`t considered as stable in Debian.


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#5 2013-04-25 00:20:14

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

For me, the real excitement is that once Wheezy is released, the Testing freeze will thaw and updates will start to trickle down.

Debian Stable has a well-earned reputation for being...well, stable.  I suppose anyone who sticks with Stable as a matter of policy may be excited about the change in features between Squeeze and Wheezy...

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#6 2013-04-25 01:51:19

berkough
#! Member
From: Las Vegas
Registered: 2011-05-31
Posts: 90
Website

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

I don't think they're being too conservative, they're just catering more towards server and workstation environments with regards to "Stable".

Personally, with other distros--namely Ubuntu--I can't stand the fact there is a new release so often. Even with the LTS versions Canonical releases... Debian tends to be more flexible, such as with backports.

If our entire office was run on Debian exclusively, I would look forward to upgrading all of the systems to Debian 7.0, knowing that I wouldn't have to worry about very much for at least the next 3 years.


--
["In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria."] ~ Ben Franklin

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#7 2013-04-25 03:26:15

douglas
#! CrunchBanger
From: Dallas, Texas
Registered: 2011-01-09
Posts: 230

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

Good points on both sides.  I will rub Waldorf a few months, then try Jessie.

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#8 2013-04-25 03:50:35

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

berkough wrote:

I don't think they're being too conservative, they're just catering more towards server and workstation environments with regards to "Stable".

^ This. Debian Stable is not necessarily ideal for desktops where users may want the latest applications, but servers its a top choice.

Of course, desktop users can always try testing or unstable if they think stable is too stale wink

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#9 2013-04-25 04:47:28

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

We've had so much fun the past couple years with Sta(b)le and Sta(t)ler...I wonder what people will come up with for Waldorf once Wheezy goes Sta(b)le.  Maybe jokes about how old both Statler and Waldorf - the Muppets, not the #! releases - are? wink

I like my OS to be like any other tool - perfectly functional, and appropriate for the job.  The Law of the Instrument applies here:  I've never needed more than one kind of claw hammer, but I can understand the need a construction worker would have for a framing hammer, a shingler's hammer, a drywall hammer, etc...

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#10 2013-04-25 08:25:49

fatmac
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-11-14
Posts: 1,948

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

As always :-

Stable => Servers,
Testing => Desktops,
Sid => Occasional Breakage,
Experimental => What it says on the tin.

How stable do you want your system ?


Linux since 1999
Currently:  AntiX, & Crunchbang.
A good general beginners book for Linux :- http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
A good Debian read :- http://debian-handbook.info/get/now/

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#11 2013-04-25 09:28:51

Forthy
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2012-01-16
Posts: 226

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

douglas wrote:

Good points on both sides.  I will rub Waldorf a few months, then try Jessie.

Presuming you meant 'run', this is my philosophy too.

If you actually did mean 'rub', I'm going to subtly distance myself from your post...

tongue

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#12 2013-04-25 11:41:43

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

Well, actually I don`t consider a release as stable if it`s only usable on old hardware. But of course, you could argue that unusable is a stable state... People are changing their laptops and netbooks quite often, of several reasons. One is that if the hdd fails, and/or the battery is weak, then  it`s almost as expensive to replace those, as it is to buy a new one. Also, if people like to game on their laptop, they have to change them now and then to keep up with the development of games, and other apps and software...

How stable I want my system? Testing has been stable for a very long time, and the breakages in Sid are very few and far apart, and not once have i experienced a breakage that is unfixable. My issue isn`t that there is a stable, testing and unstable release, but my issue is that the cycles are way to long to stay current. It should be cut in half.

It isn`t a big issue for me now that I`ve gotten a bit more experienced, but as a complete newbie I could have gotten discouraged by trying Debian Stable just to find that it was unusable, and as a newbie I thought that testing and unstable was very buggy, and only suited for the very experienced linux-users. Lucky for me I had an old laptop when i initially came to Debian. If I had started my debian-journey with my very new pc, then I would never have used Debian today....


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#13 2013-04-25 11:51:13

douglas
#! CrunchBanger
From: Dallas, Texas
Registered: 2011-01-09
Posts: 230

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

Forthy wrote:
douglas wrote:

Good points on both sides.  I will rub Waldorf a few months, then try Jessie.

Presuming you meant 'run', this is my philosophy too.

If you actually did mean 'rub', I'm going to subtly distance myself from your post...

tongue

big_smile Ha!  I meant 'run'

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#14 2013-04-25 12:26:50

scket
#! CrunchBanger
From: West Midlands
Registered: 2009-01-16
Posts: 221

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

douglas wrote:
Forthy wrote:
douglas wrote:

Good points on both sides.  I will rub Waldorf a few months, then try Jessie.

Presuming you meant 'run', this is my philosophy too.

If you actually did mean 'rub', I'm going to subtly distance myself from your post...

tongue

big_smile Ha!  I meant 'run'

Try Jessie?

Or Janice?

wink

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#15 2013-04-25 12:49:22

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

is this party on the graveyard?

anonymous wrote:

^ This. Debian Stable is not necessarily ideal for desktops where users may want the latest applications, but servers its a top choice.

yeah, because on servers we don't need new applications.

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#16 2013-04-25 14:51:55

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

I meant desktop users likely want to continuously update to the latest versions of applications. With a server you likely only want security updates and avoid the problems that come with too frequent and major upgrades.

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#17 2013-04-25 16:06:49

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

It's worse than on Windows. sad

Then it was "Buy a new computer or you won't be able to use our next OS."

Now it's "Buy a new computer or you'll be holding up the evolution of Linux" ...or something.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#18 2013-04-25 16:18:54

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

@ ew - Your own expectations of Debian might not be the same as those who use and develop it. There is more hardware than just your laptop out there they have to test on, and there are plenty of distros that release quicker than the ~2 years Debian takes for those who want it.

What makes Debian Stable worthwhile is the stability, a shorter release cycle reduces it's main selling point.

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#19 2013-04-25 16:26:38

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

Their target audience is now old geezers that want to be stingy and stay with old hardware.

Hmm, first time I have ever been described as an old geezer. While still an undergrad.

(And what JohnRaff said, basically...)

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#20 2013-04-25 16:49:56

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

cchhrriiss121212 wrote:

@ ew - Your own expectations of Debian might not be the same as those who use and develop it. There is more hardware than just your laptop out there they have to test on, and there are plenty of distros that release quicker than the ~2 years Debian takes for those who want it.

What makes Debian Stable worthwhile is the stability, a shorter release cycle reduces it's main selling point.

Yes, and that was fine in the past, but now everything is moving faster, and being stable but unusable isn`t a good selling point, and in regards to my pc/laptop I have to point out that it`s the very most common hardware out there.... My pc is the new industry default. Ivybrigde I5 and HD4000...., and one would think that this configuration was the most important to test on..., I have another that`s not quite as new, that one has Sandybridge, but wheezy is to old for that one also...

Somethings very off when Debians newest release will be to old to run on 1-2 year old pc`s with the most common hardware.

But perhaps I shouldn`t rant at the 2 year cycle, but rather at the fact that Debian fails to implement support for new common hardware in Debian Stable. In my mind Debian is a full 2 years behind where they should be.


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#21 2013-04-25 16:57:47

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

johnraff wrote:

It's worse than on Windows. sad

Then it was "Buy a new computer or you won't be able to use our next OS."

Now it's "Buy a new computer or you'll be holding up the evolution of Linux" ...or something.

Nope, you will always be able to use old distros and old kernels. If you store a iso of Crunchbang 10, you will be able to install and use it 10 years from now. That`s never a issue....

And it`s not about holding up the evolution of linux...., because the other big ones are keeping up. It`s only Debian that is falling behind. 3.5 kernels are stable in Ubuntu, and should be considered stable in Debian too..


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#22 2013-04-25 17:11:26

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

ew wrote:

Yes, and that was fine in the past, but now everything is moving faster

I would argue the opposite. Intel have been following their tick-tock cycle for some time and PC sales are stagnating as people stay with older hardware for longer. Even gamers are not that compelled to update hardware that often anymore.

ew wrote:

being stable but unusable isn`t a good selling point

To you it isn't, but to others it is.

ew wrote:

My pc is the new industry default. Ivybrigde I5 and HD4000...., and one would think that this configuration was the most important to test on

Testing is not about finding it works on the most common hardware and throwing it out the door. It is the exact opposite, you need to know it works in every scenario before giving it the name "stable".

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#23 2013-04-25 17:12:36

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

anonymous wrote:
berkough wrote:

I don't think they're being too conservative, they're just catering more towards server and workstation environments with regards to "Stable".

^ This. Debian Stable is not necessarily ideal for desktops where users may want the latest applications, but servers its a top choice.

Of course, desktop users can always try testing or unstable if they think stable is too stale wink

But then Debian shouldn`t hide testing and unstable as much as they do. Newbies will not find the downloads, and instead be discouraged by a lousy first impression that doesn`t give them anything else than a blackscreen..., having to hazzle with kernel parameters just to be able to boot with a display...

For me it`s no longer a issue, I have found my way and can fix all that stuff, but I can not recommend Debian Stable to a newbie with Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge....


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#24 2013-04-25 17:16:18

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

ew wrote:

But then Debian shouldn`t hide testing and unstable as much as they do.

Well testing and unstable aren't Debian's main distro/product really. They're used to support stable.

ew wrote:

Newbies will not find the downloads, and instead be discouraged by a lousy first impression that doesn`t give them anything else than a blackscreen..., having to hazzle with kernel parameters just to be able to boot with a display...

Why would a newbie be installing Debian instead of say Ubuntu?

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2013-04-25 18:41:47

nadir
#! Member
Registered: 2010-10-20
Posts: 83

Re: Time to (release) party! ;)

If one is a newbie to Linux _and one isn't willing to use a searchengine to find the testing iso _and one isn't willing to ask in a forum or a mailing list or an IRC channel _and one wants to use the newest hardware -then Debian simply isn't the right distribution.
(Otoh i seem to be a lucky man. All of the above was valid for me, i didn't even use a computer before, and it worked without problems).

by asking one would perhaps be pointed to:
http://kmuto.jp/debian/d-i/
or to debian-backports

If you take this:

Debian is one of the most influential open source projects known as a Linux distribution, and maintains repositories with over 29,000 software packages ready for installation. Its repositories hosts these large numbers of software packages for multiple architectures more than any other Linux distribution project. Debian hosts software in additional repositories called "non-free" but offers its distribution setup without it. Debian is seen as a solid Linux and has been forked many times (Debian derivatives).

as your base, add a higher kernel and a tiny bit more, then it is not very fair to complain that Debian does it the way it does. I think there must be reasons that so many distros are based on Debian. And many, like Kali/Backtrack, changed from Ubuntu (based on Debian) to Debian itself. Though most of them don't support, for example, ppc or arm or your router. 

With the hardware i got i don't even see a big difference between stable and sid (I put the CD in the drive, hit return a few times, reboot, install xorg, a window manager, a couple of apps, and then start to _do something with whatever version of software i got). My laptop being 1.5 years old. My main PC 4 or 5 years. Both raspberries half a year old. The rest something like Pentium4. Just tested refracta (actual debian stable) live on an msi A6200 laptop (not mine). Worked too. All of them are sufficient for what i do (raspberries not all, but most).

If Wheezy comes out with a 3.2 kernel then I will go so far as to say that it is a disgrace, almost provocing for anyone with a laptop newer than 2010.

The "if" shows that you don't fully understand how Debian releases. It won't come with a newer kernel. Ther is no if. It is in the freeze. It also doesn't matter if you or i  or anyone considers the actual testing to be stable enough for us. It will be released when the release critical bugs are removed (" The 'frozen testing' with no rc-bugs will be released as the new stable version.").

Last edited by nadir (2013-04-25 18:54:43)

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