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#1 2013-03-29 16:33:17

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

earlier today, while watching an excellent talk from Dr Richard Matthew Stallman on bitcoin, i saw a related video, another talk from him, about ubuntu.  i clicked, i watched, and i thought, my god, ubuntu users need to know about this, so they can at the very least opt-out if they want, by changing how their copy of ubuntu works, or switching to an ubuntu respin with this feature disabled, or switching away from ubuntu entirely.  so i scooted off to #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net to share this video, and engage in any friendly discussion that may ensue resulting from it.

so in i pop, take a look at their chanserve message, and topic, (and it kinda looked like someone else might already have been talking about a topic along similar lines), and feel it quite apropriate to start like thus:

(15:42:28) Digit: dear vanilla-ubuntu users for your consideration:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu … P8CNp-vksc

(15:43:12) IdleOne: Digit: Can we please keep this channel support only, videos are not needed

i wanted to say:  "i consider that video as offering support, helping users become aware of this perspective, and alter their use of ubuntu.  may even help development of ubuntu."  and had that typed out, ready to go, but it wouldnt be sent when i jabbed away at enter, because:

(15:43:40) You have parted the channel: requested by k1l_ ( troll somehwere else)

so one is not even permitted to raise these issues without being silenced?  not even given any chance at all, before a swift hand of [in]justice boots you out?   note in my thread title i use the phrase "presumed dissent",  because there was no intent on my part, let alone any due process carried out on their part, merely the presumption, leading directly to being kicked.  and even if there were such intent, and were such a process (presumably through diologue as a first course of action), then this is still not a reason to be kicked out and silenced.

to this, i say, outright, boycott ubuntu.

it would be one thing to have such a spyware feature, but then to actively prevent people from raising awareness of it, clearly shows this is no mere "conveniance" feature.  this is malicious intent to abuse the users for canonical's own gain.   us installing flash (or other proprietary software with known spyware features), by choice, is one thing, but these are direct efforts on canonical/ubuntu's part, to undermine the freedom, security and privacy of people.

normally, i am in favour of all distros, and can be seen being some kind of calm voice of reason when distro-wars flare up, reminding people we have the freedom and choice, that we all have different tastes and values, that all distros are welcome, and so on...  so this is a significant day for me, Fri Mar 29, 2013, the first day i called for a boycott of a distribution of GNU/Linux. 
... oh wait, no, i did this with suse too, when novel tried to pawn off gpl licensed software to microsoft.  well, this is still significant.  XD  this is a direct attack on freedom, not a back-room deal breaching gnu gpl.

i presume it is safe to say that there are no such features like that, now, or intended for the future, in crunchbang linux, right?  (or at the very least, have it be opt-in, rather than opt-out, and be upfront about it too, of course.)
i want corenominal to keep making this excellent distro that we all love so much, and i want him to make enough money from it to support him, but not if that means resorting to this sort of "feature" of course.  i'm sure we can all brainstorm together to come up with ideas of ethically sound ways to keep #! afloat.  smile  beyond just http://crunchbang.org/donate/ i mean.
(which reminds me, i have income again soon, after 3 years without... it may not be much, but i'll fire some along to #!)  smile

anyhoo... this has been quite an eye-opener day for me.  in the past, i've been justly kicked from #ubuntu for acts i'm not proud of, but today, i was kicked for trying to be helpful to the ubuntu users.  screw em.  i now not only want to not-use ubuntu, i want to help raise awareness of this, and actively encourage others to not use ubuntu either.

though he is not to everyone's taste, i want to thank rms for raising awareness of this.

Last edited by Digit (2013-03-29 16:39:08)

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2013-03-29 17:42:00

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

Since when does Stallman have a PhD? I mean, a real one, not the honorary type.

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#3 2013-03-29 17:49:42

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

dead-horse.gif

so one is not even permitted to raise these issues without being silenced?

the fact that you are free to speak doesn't mean everybody everywhere is obligated to listen. you feel like they need to be enlightened by your discovery, but they may not necessarily feel like getting saved, especially that you are probably not the first person on the internet that did that.

btw http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=24900

Last edited by zalew (2013-03-29 17:54:30)

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#4 2013-03-29 17:53:52

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

Digit wrote:

normally, i am in favour of all distros, and can be seen being some kind of calm voice of reason when distro-wars flare up, reminding people we have the freedom and choice, that we all have different tastes and values, that all distros are welcome, and so on...  so this is a significant day for me, Fri Mar 29, 2013, the first day i called for a boycott of a distribution of GNU/Linux.

+1

But a boycott that wants to achieve anything will need to be more active - than just passively ignoring Ubuntu. Though organizing such a thing from the #!-forums is a rather bad idea. I get the impression that this particular issue is much more a FLOSS/Privacy/Digital-Rights vs. Canonical-thing than anything #! would have anything to say about.

I don't share the resentment against distro-wars or the encouragement to "be nice" to anyone in the community - regardless of how they try to fuck it up. In my view Canonical is very close to entirely leaving "the community" with their behavior.

Anyway: Canonical GFYS.

BTW: There already was a similar thread. Just mentioning in case you missed it.

Last edited by sorcerer's_apprentice (2013-03-29 17:59:30)

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#5 2013-03-29 17:58:34

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

zalew wrote:

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploa … -horse.gif

so one is not even permitted to raise these issues without being silenced?

the fact that you are free to speak doesn't mean everybody everywhere is obligated to listen. you feel like they need to be enlightened by your discovery, but they may not necessarily feel like getting saved, especially that you are probably not the first person on the internet that did that.

btw http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=24900

You're right with the first statement. But I see exactly this right being violated. It wasn't that he/she was free to speak and nobody listened. He/she was kicked out of their channel for raising concerns.

What kind of behavior is this? Can't they discuss these issues righteously?

Cuius regio eius religio.

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#6 2013-03-29 18:09:32

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

sorcerer's_apprentice wrote:

You're right with the first statement. But I see exactly this right being violated.

The people controlling that channel have the same rights as Digit.  Where I live, the individual is guaranteed the right to free speech (within reasonable limitations..."don't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater (unless there's an actual fire)") without risk of censure from any government agency, but that gives everyone else the right to tell you to STFU if they want.

Having said that, I agree that whoever booted Digit from the Butnut IRC was totally out of line.  (EDIT:  I'm terribly sorry to bash, but even I can't love or tolerate the sh*t I've heard about their IRC.  IMHO they earn all the bashing they get.)

Last edited by pvsage (2013-03-29 18:20:48)

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#7 2013-03-29 18:34:41

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,108

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

tl;dr. You are a fascist as well.

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#8 2013-03-29 18:35:53

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

pvsage wrote:

but that gives everyone else the right to tell you to STFU if they want.

Legally you're right. But I think the moral standard for an official IRC-channel of a distro that wants to belong the the open-source-community is (or should be) a bit higher than that of say, a marketing gig by a corporation at a trade fair.

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#9 2013-03-29 18:37:41

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

sorcerer's_apprentice wrote:
zalew wrote:

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploa … -horse.gif

so one is not even permitted to raise these issues without being silenced?

the fact that you are free to speak doesn't mean everybody everywhere is obligated to listen. you feel like they need to be enlightened by your discovery, but they may not necessarily feel like getting saved, especially that you are probably not the first person on the internet that did that.

btw http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=24900

You're right with the first statement. But I see exactly this right being violated. It wasn't that he/she was free to speak and nobody listened. He/she was kicked out of their channel for raising concerns.

What kind of behavior is this? Can't they discuss these issues righteously?

Cuius regio eius religio.

as a host you also have rights - the rights to set the rules of behavior in your place. just like on this forum, where people also were kicked by mods, even the same person for a few times in a row. you comply or get thrown out.

as an example... there are a lot of kids who one day discover a political doctrine (possibly on wikipedia, youtube or reddit), and since that day, they drop into every possible website with a submission form, and try to *enlighten* everyone about they favorite political blogs, because *you all don't understand!!!*. stupid, right? annoying? very.

refusing to accept that somebody doesn't want to be harrassed by your views, at the same time refusing to acknowledge that you may not be the first person on the internet who dropped in there and they are just tired - it's close to lunaticism and trolling.  I get OP believes he wanted to do something good. but: not the right place, not the right time. hence the trigger-happy reaction. now running around screaming about a 'fascist state' - that's just sad. you were kicked out of an IRC channel, deal with it and move on, quit whining.

btw, if ubuntu is fascist, you can always drop in to the very friendly debian forums. say you like ubuntu, be called names, get your mom insulted, then you can proclaim the win of freedom of speech.

Last edited by zalew (2013-03-29 18:47:54)

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#10 2013-03-29 18:49:29

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

zalew wrote:

refusing to accept that somebody doesn't want to be harrassed by your views, at the same time refusing to acknowledge that you may not be the first person on the internet who dropped in there and they are just tired - it's close to lunaticism and trolling.  I get OP believes he wanted to do something good. but: not the right place, not the right time. hence the trigger-happy reaction. now running around screaming about a 'fascist state' - that's just sad. you were kicked out of an IRC channel, deal with it and move on, quit whining.

Well, it may be that these concerns were brought up already. But then it wonders me - why Canonical doesn't have an official site where they lead people to who have similar questions. A site on which they try to respond rationally (as opposed to Jono Bacon) to the criticism. Or at least let the IRC-mod copy/paste a standard line in there. But they don't do that. They don't want anybody to question them on their shit. And I don't see why IRC is the wrong place for that? Which place would be better? The Ubunut-forums? Their Website? Don't you think the same thing happens there, too? It would surprise me if it didn't...

And that's where I think the comparison with other forms of authoritarian communication (of e.g. corporations, military etc) is valid. A fascist state - well, coming from Germany, I think I know that this is a huge exaggeration of the dimension this took and takes place in.

zalew wrote:

btw, if ubuntu is fascist, you can always drop in to the very friendly debian forums. say you like ubuntu, be called names, get your mom insulted, then you can proclaim the win of freedom of speech.

At least the debian-project isn't spying on its users. And if you ask similar questions on their lists you get answers like these...

Last edited by sorcerer's_apprentice (2013-03-29 19:58:26)

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#11 2013-03-29 19:02:35

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

Or at least let the IRC-mod copy/paste a standard line in there. But they don't do that. They don't want anybody to question them on their shit.

reading OP's post - do you honestly believe it would help and OP would move along? shuttleworth already addressed this issue publically many times.

at a certain point, some people just need to stfu, instead of assuming their political bashing is some profound wisdom needing to be passed down upon the unconscious crowd thriving for enlightment. if they don't - /kb

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#12 2013-03-29 19:16:35

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

zalew wrote:

Or at least let the IRC-mod copy/paste a standard line in there. But they don't do that. They don't want anybody to question them on their shit.

reading OP's post - do you honestly believe it would help and OP would move along? shuttleworth already addressed this issue publically many times.

at a certain point, some people just need to stfu, instead of assuming their political bashing is some profound wisdom needing to be passed down upon the unconscious crowd thriving for enlightment. if they don't - /kb

It's not about profound wisdom but about a disturbing development within the community. And as you know from the other thread we already discussed this issue - I deeply believe that the open-source community has a mission. A mission beyond placing ourselves on the market for mobile-devices to make a buck or two.

As mentioned many times before Canonical can make a buck if they so choose but they don't earn my respect with that. And they earn my contempt for aggressively pushing their money-making into a linux-distro - especially when combined with spying on their users and trying to make critics look ridiculous.

Last edited by sorcerer's_apprentice (2013-03-29 19:17:59)

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#13 2013-03-29 19:25:04

brontosaurusrex
#! Red Menace
Registered: 2012-06-15
Posts: 1,643

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

I agree with the fact that ubuntu should be ashamed of itself, however #ubuntu is mostly a collection of users, mostly. They are there to address tech issues and ... stuff like that are not something they are in position to discuss (unless boring flame-war is the game of the day...).

Last edited by brontosaurusrex (2013-03-29 19:26:15)

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#14 2013-03-29 20:13:37

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

sorcerer's_apprentice wrote:

It's not about profound wisdom but about a disturbing development within the community. And as you know from the other thread we already discussed this issue - I deeply believe that the open-source community has a mission. A mission beyond placing ourselves on the market for mobile-devices to make a buck or two.

As mentioned many times before Canonical can make a buck if they so choose but they don't earn my respect with that. And they earn my contempt for aggressively pushing their money-making into a linux-distro - especially when combined with spying on their users and trying to make critics look ridiculous.

quick, let's tell them on IRC, they so need to hear that.

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#15 2013-03-29 20:31:19

okubax
Member
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Registered: 2013-02-17
Posts: 30
Website

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

So because of 'your' experience on the IRC today, you are advocating for a boycott of Ubuntu? Thanks but no thanks.

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#16 2013-03-29 20:43:11

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

zalew wrote:
sorcerer's_apprentice wrote:

It's not about profound wisdom but about a disturbing development within the community. And as you know from the other thread we already discussed this issue - I deeply believe that the open-source community has a mission. A mission beyond placing ourselves on the market for mobile-devices to make a buck or two.

As mentioned many times before Canonical can make a buck if they so choose but they don't earn my respect with that. And they earn my contempt for aggressively pushing their money-making into a linux-distro - especially when combined with spying on their users and trying to make critics look ridiculous.

quick, let's tell them on IRC, they so need to hear that.

I think Canonical is a lost cause. That's why it was OP and not me visiting them on IRC...

okubax wrote:

So because of 'your' experience on the IRC today, you are advocating for a boycott of Ubuntu? Thanks but no thanks.So because of 'your' experience on the IRC today, you are advocating for a boycott of Ubuntu? Thanks but no thanks.

There are other reasons why one could also want to do that. And it doesn't seem to be singular event in the end:

pvsage wrote:

I'm terribly sorry to bash, but even I can't love or tolerate the sh*t I've heard about their IRC.  IMHO they earn all the bashing they get.

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#17 2013-03-29 20:46:22

lenin-bot
Member
From: Indiana
Registered: 2013-03-28
Posts: 15
Website

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

Canonical is a business.  As such, their only real priority is making profits.  They don't care about FOSS, or respecting their users if they can profit from proprietary spyware.  It's not Canonical, it's a systemic issue.  All businesses are like that, it's in the nature of capitalism.  But if the instance of this particular business bothers you that much, then organize against them in the Ubuntu community.  You'll accomplish nothing by complaining about them here.

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#18 2013-03-29 21:03:59

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

dura wrote:

tl;dr. You are a fascist as well.

I'm not sure if that was directed at me or at Digit.  If it was directed at me, you are my new idol, as practically everyone I know considers me more liberal than most.  Digit seems to fall far to the left of the socio-political spectrum as well.  Is there such a thing as a liberal fascist?

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#19 2013-03-29 21:07:21

lenin-bot
Member
From: Indiana
Registered: 2013-03-28
Posts: 15
Website

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

pvsage wrote:

Is there such a thing as a liberal fascist?

No, fascism in itself is a reaction to liberalism.  It's a call for a return to conservative and nationalistic values, while not rejecting modernity.

Last edited by lenin-bot (2013-03-29 21:07:56)

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#20 2013-03-29 21:36:24

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

lenin-bot wrote:
pvsage wrote:

Is there such a thing as a liberal fascist?

No, fascism in itself is a reaction to liberalism.  It's a call for a return to conservative and nationalistic values, while not rejecting modernity.

Well, you forgot one factor of fascism.

Benito Mussolini wrote:

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.

That's why national-socialism wasn't actually fascism. That the left (especially in Germany) used this term after the war was to avoid the continuous reminder that the Nazis were collectivists - just as a lot of communist and socialist streams were and are. National-Socialism shares some features of fascism but it is actually quite a unique brand of authoritarian totalitarianism.

But as you seem to be acquainted with communist theory you might know that already.

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#21 2013-03-29 21:52:22

rkwurth
#! Junkie
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 365

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

If you came into my house and and pooped on the carpet, I'd throw you out, too.

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#22 2013-03-29 22:05:50

Eren
#! Die Hard
From: Black Mesa
Registered: 2009-07-27
Posts: 830

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

sorcerer's_apprentice wrote:

That's why national-socialism wasn't actually fascism. That the left (especially in Germany) used this term after the war was to avoid the continuous reminder that the Nazis were collectivists - just as a lot of communist and socialist streams were and are. National-Socialism shares some features of fascism but it is actually quite a unique brand of authoritarian totalitarianism.

But as you seem to be acquainted with communist theory you might know that already.

National Socialism term is not a Nazi discovery. Used by Friedrich Naumann with his some intellectual friends at 1895 (not so sure but books says probably in these years) in Germany. After few years it's used in Austria-Hungary for some social democrats. Way different then Nazi's National Socialism. smile

Nazi's National Socialism is actually a fascism. It's a fancy titled, thinked people like advocating Habsburg's social democrats but it's more like a cover for this racist acts of Nazis. SPD was atheist then Naumann came with Protestan NSV with the idea of National Socialism. And last yeah National Socialism wasn't facism but Nazi's was.

PS: My English sucks I know. I wanna talk more but I can't.

Last edited by Eren (2013-03-29 22:24:51)

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#23 2013-03-29 22:26:07

sorcerer's_apprentice
#! Junkie
From: oblivion
Registered: 2013-02-09
Posts: 293

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

Eren wrote:
sorcerer's_apprentice wrote:

That's why national-socialism wasn't actually fascism. That the left (especially in Germany) used this term after the war was to avoid the continuous reminder that the Nazis were collectivists - just as a lot of communist and socialist streams were and are. National-Socialism shares some features of fascism but it is actually quite a unique brand of authoritarian totalitarianism.

But as you seem to be acquainted with communist theory you might know that already.

National Socialism term is not a Nazi discovery. Used by Friedrich Naumann with his some intellectual friends at 1895 (not so sure but books says probably in these years) in Germany. After few years it's used in Austria-Hungary for some social democrats. Way different then Nazi's National Socialism. smile

PS: My English sucks I know. I wanna talk more but I can't.

Yes, you know which "national-socialism" I was referring to. wink And at least for some time the Nazis really meant it - until they kicked out the SA and killed Röhm. They never really lived up to the term "socialism" - but at least it denoted to them collectivism which in fact they did enforce.

There are always changes and adoptions in the meaning of political denominations - just look at the term "liberal" in Europe and then in the US. Totally different meanings. The same with "neo-liberalism" which was originally coined by Rüstow to denote changes that are required for liberalism (the original liberalism) to stay a social movement. The original meaning of the term neo-liberalism was a criticism of liberalism calling for more regulation and a stronger state - as opposed to what is means today...

Last edited by sorcerer's_apprentice (2013-03-29 22:26:31)

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#24 2013-03-29 22:45:19

Eren
#! Die Hard
From: Black Mesa
Registered: 2009-07-27
Posts: 830

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

^ Yeah, plus, I read 21. Century Socialism by Heinz Dieterich. It located Neo-liberalism under "Capitalism -> ... (I forgot here) -> ... -> Neo-liberalism". Good book btw. May be these changes of political denominations shape by your or regional political perspective I'm not so sure. Look this, the Islamic countries says Anarchism = Terrorism. May be in some parts of Europe or USA too. Not living there, not so sure. Only sovereign class says and determines what's terrorism who's terrorist. But the term meaning of Anarchism = Libertarian Socialism. Haha.   smile

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2013-03-29 23:22:53

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: boycott ubuntu, fascist state silences any presumed dissent.

Wow, this is like a watered down example of the Hitler principle.

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