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#1 2013-01-15 20:34:42

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

an analogy in the making...

there's an idiot, who reaches into the fire to grab something with his bare hands, and he gets burned. 

that wouldnt hurt if you used tongs

said someone else.
the idiot reaches into the fire again, and gets burned again, and they get told to use tongs again. 
the idiot ignores the advice, and keeps trying, repeating this process several more times.  then another idiot comes along, and offers an oven glove.  the idiot puts on the oven glove, and reaches in to grab stuff from the fire, and gets lucky a few times for breif grabs, then starts to notice he's getting burned still. 

you wouldnt get burned if you used tongs

the wise voice said again.
but still, the idiot reaches in.  with his bare hands, "protected" by only an oven glove.

to clarify the analogy here...
fire = the internet
bare hands = insecure operating system
burned = a computer virus infection
oven glove = anti-virus
tongs = GNU|Linux or BSD

yes dear windows users, you really do look that stupid to us GNU|Linux users.  we mean you well, we dont want to see you keep getting burned, but what are we to do when you wont heed our advice.

^_^

feel free to make any adaptions, clarifications, make more concise, more elaborate...  whatever improvements you see.   smile

this just came to me as i was trying to explain it to my parents who have just recently recovered from a virus, and narrowly escaped another.

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Be excellent to each other!

#2 2013-01-15 20:53:03

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: an analogy in the making...

I thought the days of platform-specific malware were of the past, and that most of today's threats were cross-platform? neutral

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#3 2013-01-15 20:55:14

schwim
#! Die Hard
From: Interweb's #1 Devotee
Registered: 2012-10-11
Posts: 1,031
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

heavy, man.

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#4 2013-01-15 21:09:35

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

pvsage wrote:

I thought the days of platform-specific malware were of the past, and that most of today's threats were cross-platform? neutral

yikes


really?

there's malware to infect nix?   ... besides the likes of flash cookies, of course.

i'm still constantly hearing of windows users contending with viruses.   was even drafted to save one guy's doze infested computer from over 30 trojans last week.   ... still never heard of any such issue ever having affected a gnu|linux system.

please, do correctly inform me, if this is an erroneous perception.

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#5 2013-01-15 21:12:01

schwim
#! Die Hard
From: Interweb's #1 Devotee
Registered: 2012-10-11
Posts: 1,031
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

Digit wrote:

really?

there's malware to infect nix?   ... besides the likes of flash cookies, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware

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#6 2013-01-15 21:20:18

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: an analogy in the making...

That analogy seems kinda iffy.

1. There are responsible Windows users who don't get their computer infected and some of those users may not use anti-virus either.

Notice: I would never recommend the typical Windows users to go sans anti-virus. My point is simply getting infected is often (but not always) user-error.

2. Since malware for *unix is almost non-existant. Comparing *unix and Windows based on infections is apples to oranges.

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#7 2013-01-15 21:32:08

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

^ Well said.  Back when I did use Windows, I never ran any AV and in fact hated it for how much it bottlenecked the system that much more. 

I also knew where not to go and not to do or open and never had an issue.


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

I dev VSIDO

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#8 2013-01-15 21:33:26

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

yikes  holy crap!  863!  i had no idea.

*installs clamtk and get his old tinfoil hat out of the attic*

*looks through list of threats while scanning*

*takes off the tinfoil hat, uninstalls clam, and stops being so silly*

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#9 2013-01-15 22:13:06

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: an analogy in the making...

pvsage wrote:

I thought the days of platform-specific malware were of the past, and that most of today's threats were cross-platform?

shitstorm = Oracle Java
rectum = Larry Ellison

Last edited by gutterslob (2013-01-15 22:13:27)


Point & Squirt

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#10 2013-01-15 22:28:03

foozer
Member
Registered: 2013-01-14
Posts: 25

Re: an analogy in the making...

A better analogy would be if there is no fire for Linux users. We only benefit from security through obscurity. And that's coming to an end (see schwim's link).

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#11 2013-01-15 23:38:49

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

foozer wrote:

A better analogy would be if there is no fire for Linux users. We only benefit from security through obscurity. And that's coming to an end (see schwim's link).


i always thought obscurity was windows' notion of security, and obscurity was impossible to be the defence for open source, since the source code is available for all to see, and so there's only really the secure-by-design left for us.

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#12 2013-01-15 23:50:19

Iranon
#! Junkie
Registered: 2012-03-10
Posts: 259

Re: an analogy in the making...

Yes. The obscurity in "security through obscurity" refers to secrecy, not numbers of installations.
The argument that Linux is safe because it's less common is as bogus as using the above phrase to make that claim.

Unix was a multi-user system from the start, security was always a concern.
Windows carries some conceptual baggage from its days as a pre-internet single-user OS, even though it has improved a great deal.
Classic Mac Os was a cesspool of malware,  possibly worse than Windows of its time - modest market share won't save one with a naive to absent security model.


LEGO won't be ready for the average user until it comes pre-assembled, in a single  unified look, and glued together so it doesn't come apart.

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#13 2013-01-15 23:59:12

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: an analogy in the making...

Digit wrote:

.... since the source code is available for all to see ...

That depends, though. You can have a zillion eyes staring at the code during an audit, but it won't help if none of them know what to look for. Not arguing with you or anything. It's just something I think people should take into consideration whenever they mention the whole "open for everyone to see" thing.

Last edited by gutterslob (2013-01-16 00:01:03)


Point & Squirt

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#14 2013-01-16 00:22:05

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: an analogy in the making...

exactly. security is not a matter of open or closed source.

the good ol' "ms sucks, windows users are stupid" is a childish argument for using linux.

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#15 2013-01-16 00:29:47

schwim
#! Die Hard
From: Interweb's #1 Devotee
Registered: 2012-10-11
Posts: 1,031
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

zalew wrote:

the good ol' "ms sucks, windows users are stupid" is a childish argument for using linux.

This should be the beginning statement in the linux user's manifesto.

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#16 2013-01-16 08:46:15

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: an analogy in the making...

Is Haiku now the only safe option?

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#17 2013-01-16 09:57:03

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

zalew wrote:

the good ol' "ms sucks, windows users are stupid" is a childish argument for using linux.

schwim wrote:

This should be the beginning statement in the linux user's manifesto.

... but....   fine, whatever.

no, ok, i'll bite.

MS does suck, and i know i was certainly stupid for using it for so long.   maybe ignorant would be a better word than stupid though.

it was even the website "microsuck" that was the ultimate clincher in helping me move, back in 2003.  it certainly was not a childish argument.  they elaborated maturely, clearly and convincingly why microsoft were so bad.  (you can still find f***microsoft.com / microsuck.com on the wayback machine web archive, including its page about what's so bad about microsoft, somewhat akin to some of the fsf's campaigns http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/ )

aaaaanyways, this thread's gone way off intended track from when i posted it asking for improvements.  seems mostly folks can take appart something they dont like, but i dont see a lot of putting together something better.  so i ask again, what would make for a better analogy to depict it?


oh, and regarding "many eyes makes all bugs shallow", it's true that if all the eyes are oblivious to what they're seeing, then the validity of the phrase/philosophy is mute, but given that freedom, and time, they can learn.   not so easily done when the code's obscured. 
as i put it long ago "a hundred software developers in an office cannot possibly compete on equal ground with a million from around the world".  the wording varies, but the concept is the same.   much akin to the cathedral vs the bazaar.

the shallow practical level benefit attempted to be illustrated in the op analogy, comes from this model, from the freedom.  if there could be a way to concisely depict and explain that in an analogy, far better than oven gloves and tongs, that would be preferable.

Iranon, well said.  'nix started on the net, moved to the desktop.  'doze started on the desktop, and moved to the net.  yup.

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#18 2013-01-16 10:21:22

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: an analogy in the making...

I buy left-handed guitars because being left-handed they tend to fit my use case better. Most guitars are right-handed, which is okay because most people are right-handed.

The problem is that I have to make an extra effort to find them, I'm given less choice in shops, and I have to pay a premium. That sucks a bit.

Yet I can safely say that in all these years, I've never had a Windows virus on a guitar.

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#19 2013-01-16 12:40:30

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: an analogy in the making...

the problem with bringing up microsucks is that you are in the said 2003 all over again, and although it was probably a good year, I'm not planning on being 21 years old again any time soon. the difference between 2013 and 2003 is that everyone who was meant to know why ms sucked or whatever already knows that, in the general public opinion they are terrible, the default approach when they announce something is 'it sucks' even before they say what it is. so you're kinda preaching to the choir. don't get me wrong, I enjoy hating a bigcorp just like the next guy, but unless you spent the las 10 years under the ice you should notice a whole new opportunity of excitement about another company and it's 'amazing' products that 'just work' with a 'secure' ecosystem of 'curated' software. people piss their pants standing in 10 hour lines, developers on their knees begging the most expensive company in IT to let their app into the store, and so called tech bloggers seem to have better discipline about their propaganda than the nazi party in 1933. microsoft? nobody gives a shit. they slept over the last decade of evolution, they are going down with or without your hatred because of terrible management, just like ibm did 20 years before. move on.

I'm a bit afraid of how seriously some people will take all of the above said, lol, but it's a wink wink that if you're into negative propaganda, then you shall probably refocus.

that all said, if I am to convince somebody to use linux I'd prefer to tell the good bits, not run around calling people idiots, because it's not how you advertise a product, not is it how you attract productive community members.

Last edited by zalew (2013-01-16 12:56:50)

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#20 2013-01-16 12:55:46

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: an analogy in the making...

Windows still has those Active X controls which allow shitty websites to hijack the browser search providers and do drive-by infections, bypassing UAC. My mom uses Win 7, with MSE, and I still have to uninstall truckloads of that crap any time I visit her. So I'd say Windows is still somewhat insecure by design, though not as much as it used to be.

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#21 2013-01-16 13:07:47

rkwurth
#! Junkie
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 365

Re: an analogy in the making...

intoCB wrote:

I buy left-handed guitars because being left-handed they tend to fit my use case better. Most guitars are right-handed, which is okay because most people are right-handed.

The problem is that I have to make an extra effort to find them, I'm given less choice in shops, and I have to pay a premium. That sucks a bit.

Yet I can safely say that in all these years, I've never had a Windows virus on a guitar.

Wisdom, attend.

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#22 2013-01-16 13:35:51

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: an analogy in the making...

Although his English is fairly wobbly, Marc Fleury seems to have a good grasp of what is really important in the world of FOSS http://www.thedelphicfuture.org/2008/01 … r-bsd.html

Perhaps it's more important to educate new Linux users about the practicalities of securing Linux in 2013. Let Windows worry about Windows.

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#23 2013-01-16 14:12:53

schwim
#! Die Hard
From: Interweb's #1 Devotee
Registered: 2012-10-11
Posts: 1,031
Website

Re: an analogy in the making...

Digit wrote:

MS does suck, and i know i was certainly stupid for using it for so long.   maybe ignorant would be a better word than stupid though.

Millions and millions of people around the world(myself included) use Windows successfully to do the things we need to do and without any drama, viruses or camp fires. That's because we are knowledgeable enough to monitor our actions while on the web as well as take any precautions necessary to remain uninfected.

For people that are incapable of managing their own presence on the web, linux is definitely a better choice for them, since it's permissions based hierarchy is better suited for clueless users that are incapable of spotting dangers on the web or click "ok" blindly to any popups without wondering what initiated it.

That being said, anyone that finds themselves unable to use Windows and remain safe and secure is probably already a victim of the PEBKAC virus, which is the earliest known cross-platform malware known to man.

As to your question, the most likely reason you're not getting assistance fine-tuning your analogy is because it's a spite-filled  self-stroking FUD-fest that makes anyone that would use it look like an ignorant fanboy and "fine tuning" it would be akin to putting lipstick on a pig.  After reading it, I'm reminded why many people give linux a try until they meet the community.

Last edited by schwim (2013-01-16 14:34:10)

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#24 2013-01-16 15:38:21

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: an analogy in the making...

Digit wrote:

seems mostly folks can take appart something they dont like, but i dont see a lot of putting together something better.  so i ask again, what would make for a better analogy to depict it?

Someone mentioned that perhaps the fire does not exist for Linux users. However keep in mind that as a result of simplification, analogies often have inaccuracies so you can't always expect to have a perfect or near-perfect analogy. IMO, it would be better just to tell people that Linux has less malware and that its is more secure "out-of-the-box".

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2013-01-16 15:44:31

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: an analogy in the making...

schwim wrote:

As to your question, the most likely reason you're not getting assistance fine-tuning your analogy is because it's a spite-filled  self-stroking FUD-fest that makes anyone that would use it look like an ignorant fanboy and "fine tuning" it would be akin to putting lipstick on a pig.  After reading it, I'm reminded why many people give linux a try until they meet the community.

Jeez, I personally find Digit to be among the most annoying of people here, but you're on a real mission to alienate everyone you come into contact with. Take it as a rule of thumb, if you can't make a point without resorting to insults, maybe the Debian Forums is a better place for you to hang.

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