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#76 2012-06-24 22:25:05

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

sunfizz98 wrote:

^perhaps, but then there was a lot of daemons added to waldorf of which I dare not mention.

Like what?

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#77 2012-06-24 22:37:08

p120d16y
#! Die Hard
From: Midwest
Registered: 2011-08-08
Posts: 800

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I like to use CD or DVD generally. I like it light so that I may add programs that I choose, but I suppose going to a GB image or something a bit larger doesn't bother me any.
I think my last #! install was burned to a DVD.
I haven't done the USB stick install for a distro for quite a while, was too lazy when I can just burn it right after I download it, and I need new flash memory actually.

Last edited by p120d16y (2012-06-24 23:09:32)


All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
---Thomas Jefferson ---

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#78 2012-06-24 23:08:58

anticapitalista
#! Member
Registered: 2010-08-03
Posts: 93

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Not to be too pissy, but just to let you know, latest development antiX-full with libreoffice fits easily on a cd. I'm 100% sure crunchbang can do the same, if it wants.

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#79 2012-06-25 00:46:47

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Crunchbang runs well on plenty of old equipment (i.e. no dvd/no USB boot).  Putting this equipment to good use, and avoiding the environmental hit of manufacturing another new computer is a personal priority.  And whether you're a noob or guru, performing a netinstall is an unreasonable hurdle to "just try it" on old equipment.  A lite version would certainly be the easiest method from the user's standpoint, but there is another alternative.

I use  a collection of USB drives to manage test and install new distros.  One system is old enough to 1) not boot from USB, and 2) not read DVDs.  But rather than burn a CD for each distro I try on this system, I use Plop Boot Manager.   A Plop Boot Manager CD will boot from the CD and chain boot from a USB drive even when the bios will not.  So one plopboot CD means I can use USB drives to install and test any distro on any machine.   While free for personal and commercial use, you may balk because Plop Boot is not an open source solution.  But for that matter, neither is your BIOS with USB support.

Teaching a noob about netinsall means they can install Debian anywhere.  Teaching a noob about Plop Boot means they can install or test any distro anywhere.


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#80 2012-06-25 00:57:00

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ thanks for the info about Plop Boot @cpoakes. It looks like a great solution for some peoples needs smile

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#81 2012-06-25 17:26:54

falldown
#! Samurai
Registered: 2011-09-01
Posts: 1,727

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I do believe that a #!-lite would be the solution to this dilemma.
A base debian install with openbox, Tint2, webbrowser and #! branding.
A cb-welcome that walks you through all the other goodies... if you want them.

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#82 2012-06-25 17:39:44

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

A simple script using wget to get the #! packages and install them after a base debian install would be profoundly easier than maintaining a lite version, IMO.

All one would need is the exact files that #! uses to create the 'experience' most of which are in /etc/skel


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#83 2012-06-25 17:45:12

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

What VastOne said.


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#84 2012-06-25 18:24:55

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Pf, you two are thinking like geeks. The point of a Lite version of #! would be to accommodate People who don't feel confident enough to attempt a Debian netinstall. I for one wouldn't have had the balls to do it if #! hadn't introduced me to the Debian world in the most gentle and awesome manner possible.

That being said, I have to agree with pretty much everything Omns said, it's unlikely we as a community would be able to step up and cut and maintain a Lite version. Let's face it, if we weren't the lazy bastards we are, we wouldn't wallow in  Debian land, but running Slackware, Gentoo or trying to beat Fedora into something resembling a usable system. So, papanominal is the only one with the expertise and endurance to cut a possible #! Lite. I'd support that. You know, with kind words, helping out newcomers find and install the best programs for their needs and stuff. It all depends on The Man, but it doesn't seem like this is the point of the thread.

It seems there's enough use case scenarios for continuing to produce the CD size iso. Apart from everything that's been said, a lot of Asus models can't boot from USB in legacy BIOS mode, only in UEFI, and the debian installer won't have proper UEFI support until the post-Wheezy Stable. I'd find it much easier to explain to a potential user how to switch from UEFI to BIOS emulation boot in the firmware than to walk them through ALT F2 in the installer, after they've completed the install and chose not to install Grub:

mount /dev/sda /target
mount --bind /proc /target/proc
mount --bind /dev /target/dev
mount --bind sys /target/sys
chroot /target /bin/bash
apt-get update
mdkir -p /boot/uefi
apt-get install grub-efi64 (or whatever it's called)
grub-install /boot/efi

All of this (maybe more, I think /boot may even need to be FAT32?) wouold be required on my sister's laptop - i3, HD graphics, and so on. New Thinkpads also don't boot from USB in BIOS emulation mode IIRC. Hell, even ditching some programs to accommodate the GTK3 size requirements seems acceptable, as the excellent cb-welcome is quite easy to expand. But, it's all in the hand of our Fearless Leader.

Last edited by el_koraco (2012-06-25 18:25:27)

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#85 2012-06-25 18:30:35

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Perhaps those hands could be greased with more donations since this is what is bringing in the bread for The Man. wink

Of course sharing some of that expertise would not hurt matters either...

It is also ironic that with so many ppl encouraging minimalism/terminal for daily use would suggest that a netinstal would be difficult.

Last edited by VastOne (2012-06-25 18:31:45)


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#86 2012-06-25 19:17:14

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:

It is also ironic that with so many ppl encouraging minimalism/terminal for daily use would suggest that a netinstal would be difficult.

Yep and given the amount of howtos, scripts and people willing to assist here it seems something that in the long run is an unnecessary addition/reintroduction. Ah, but there I go again getting away from the purpose of this thread so I'll restate that I'd have no issue with the image going over 700mb smile

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#87 2012-06-25 19:26:12

rhowaldt
#!*$%:)
Registered: 2011-03-09
Posts: 4,396

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

@Vastone: yes, thanks for reminding me again, because i keep forgetting. gonna donate now.

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#88 2012-06-25 19:46:49

sunfizz98
Carbonated Orange Juice
From: su terminal
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,876
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

@el_koraco
sigh, I should have kept my crunchbang iso a bit longer before I wiped it, but I think it had to do with virtualization.  However, I did find Pulseaudio as a nice welcome.  I also agree with your latest post.

@Vastone
debinstall hard? Nah....say it ain't so wink The more I think about his thread, I think it is actually acceptable for the iso to be somewhat above 700mb. 

Since Corenomial is the main one on deck, then I think the most optimal route is to leave it to his best judgement of how this distro should be in his eyes.  Anything more minimalistic than 700mb could potentially be solved by antiX or a deb netinstall.  Either solution is easy to do, provided one is eager to learn a little know-how.

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#89 2012-06-25 19:48:33

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I was not the one saying netinstal is hard... wink


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#90 2012-06-25 20:04:11

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Back to the basics....

corenominal wrote:

Previously, all #! images have been able to fit on a CD, but I am considering if this is now a pointless limitation?

Personally, I cannot remember the last time I used a CD as an install medium, I always tend to use a USB stick, as it is much faster and greener.

When was last time you used a CD to install #!, or any other distribution?

CD
- Can't remember the last time I bought one, but ALL the CD's I have are R/W so I reuse them. I have no new CD's.  When I finally get an error for re-using it too many times I have another coffee coaster.

DVD
- Again all R/W and two maxwell DVD-RAM (slow.....), I actually have Debian Business Card on a DVD. They are cheap enough
- I have the LMDE DVD here - biggest hassle was downloading it because of it's size.

USB - 2 - 1x 2GB and 1x 16 GB
- could never get my desktop to boot from them, BIOS is set to allow it but it never worked.  Until recently I manually set BIOS to see the USB boot.  Use the 2GB to play with, it has Waldorf LiveCD on it at the moment as I wanted to practice with the 'dd' command.

So is 700MB the issue OR - bandwidth.  I'm surprised no one has mentioned that.  Downloading a DVD sized distro on a slow connection would not be fun.

Not everyone has a high speed connection. And some of us cannot justify the cost of a 'higher' speed connection.  That kind of thing happens to people on a fixed income pension.

But as long as were talking I've never considered #! 'heavy' in the sense of the ISO size and it certainly is/has been a feature packed distro.  Everything right there or available through the 'cb-welcome' script.

Be it USB, DVD or old CD drives, it seems that that are ways around what media people can use.

Try to keep it under the 700MB range of a CD if possible for two reasons:

  1. old computers

  2. slower bandwidth users

but if it is going to cost #! the integrity of the distro then toss the CD limit or concentrate on the cb-welcome script and 'advertise' that feature to the fullest.

Consider adding things to the script that would give better options than the existing script, to replace apps that were removed to satisfy the size / speed requirements that are ultimately chosen (that's Philips choice in the long run).

ie:
- Build it up to include choices: OO, LO, Abi-Word and gnumeric
- iceweasel or opera
- icedove or claws-mail

Yes, I know it's an 'apt-get install something' command away. But does John Q. Newbie know that?
- that cb-welcome script is a HUGE plus for him!

So to wrap it up ...

I'd go down the middle ... somewhere between PuppyBang and CrunchBuntows but with a super cb-welcome.

Last edited by Sector11 (2012-06-25 20:11:19)


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#91 2012-06-25 20:08:57

wuxmedia
wookiee madclaw
From: Back in Blighty
Registered: 2012-03-09
Posts: 1,478
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

ok plop boot changes my vote.
feel free to go for the 6 disk DVD tongue

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#92 2012-06-25 20:11:41

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Technical learning curve aside, doesn't the idea of a netinstall run completely counter to a Live image anyway?

@Corenominal:  What applications and/or features could be reasonably omitted from a Live image, while still allowing a potential new user the opportunity to fully test-drive the distro?  Spare tire?  Third row passenger seat?  Hubcaps?

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#93 2012-06-25 20:12:47

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

wuxmedia wrote:

ok plop boot changes my vote.
feel free to go for the 6 disk DVD tongue

lol lol lol lol
DVD 1 - LiveDVD | Install
DVD 2-6 - The repos


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#94 2012-06-25 20:14:03

sunfizz98
Carbonated Orange Juice
From: su terminal
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,876
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

I am particularly on slow bandwidth so I support S11's response.

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#95 2012-06-25 20:24:14

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:

It is also ironic that with so many ppl encouraging minimalism/terminal for daily use would suggest that a netinstal would be difficult.

If I recall correctly the NetInstall is not a whole bunch different than the 'Text Install' found on the LiveCD's.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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#96 2012-06-25 20:26:01

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

pvsage wrote:

Technical learning curve aside, doesn't the idea of a netinstall run completely counter to a Live image anyway?

Not sure of what you are asking here but...

If you have a netinstal to get what you want as a base (and nothing more), then the ability to get the same setup (/etc/skel), scripts and apps of #!, you then would have a minimal as minimal can be #! setup.


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#97 2012-06-25 20:27:05

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

Sector11 wrote:

If I recall correctly the NetInstall is not a whole bunch different than the 'Text Install' found on the LiveCD's.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct...  there are better and of course, there are worse.


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

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#98 2012-06-25 20:32:47

pidsley
Window Mangler
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 1,752

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

VastOne wrote:
pvsage wrote:

Technical learning curve aside, doesn't the idea of a netinstall run completely counter to a Live image anyway?

Not sure of what you are asking here but..

I think what he's saying is that the purpose of a "live" image is to let people try a distro without ever installing it (please correct me if I am wrong, pvsage). You can even try a live CD without a network connection. I tried several Live CDs before I was brave enough to install one, and even then I added a second hard drive to my machine so I was reasonably sure nothing bad would happen to my main disk. A net install (even a simple scripted net install) requires a user to commit hardware and time to installing before he or she can try the distro. It's a significantly larger hurdle -- when I was researching distros in my early Linux days, I disqualified quite a few simply because they didn't have a live iso.

Last edited by pidsley (2012-06-25 20:37:15)

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#99 2012-06-25 20:52:11

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

^ Correct. 

@pvsage

My discussions of a netinstal was in references to the creation of a lite version of #! and suggesting an alternative method so that corenominal could maintain focus on the real prize.


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#100 2012-06-25 20:59:27

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: Is it time to drop the 700MiB CD Limit?

pidsley wrote:

(please correct me if I am wrong, pvsage)

To quote one of Pat Morita's characters, "Hit nail on head."  If the Live ISO is too large for a CD, that will exclude a significant percentage of hardware from even the test drive, in which case a netinstall + #! repos would possibly be installing a pig in a poke.

@VastOne:  So you're suggesting a netinstall (plus Debian Live) as an alternate path to somebody building a #!Lite Community Edition?

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