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#1 2008-12-04 12:51:14

h0bbe
Member
From: Leksand, Sweden
Registered: 2008-11-26
Posts: 13

Reviews of #!

http://www.raiden.net/?cat=2&aid=497

Note the nice picture of Philip ;-)

Last edited by h0bbe (2008-12-05 09:14:21)

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#2 2008-12-04 15:01:20

marf
Member
Registered: 2008-12-03
Posts: 24

Re: Reviews of #!

Decent review, but some things I disagree with.

Unlike another lightweight distribution, TinyXS-max, I could not recommend #! CrunchBang to a Linux newbie.

and then further down the page...

Unlike TinyXS, CrunchBang Linux does not acknowledge a "root" login. In fact, after a quick search of the CrunchBang site, I could not even find the default password for user "root".

Are newbie's going to be worried about their root password?

Anyways since the author seems to be mainly comparing !# to TinyXS (based off PCLOS from what I can tell). There is very little information on TinyXS however from what I could tell, it seems to be using an older version of linux kernel ( < 2.6.25 ). Anyways one reason I chose to use !# was because linux kernel 2.6.26 and moreso 2.6.27 added lots of support for Intel WIFI cards (primarily new ones in the Centrino 2 platform... iwlagn modules). Of course the author mentions that they had difficulty connecting to their home wireless WPA network and that

For CrunchBang WPA/WPA2 secure wireless networking, I would guess that some Terminal command-line magic may be required.

This isn't the case. I'm using WPA on a DLink router, and connected first time with no difficulty. Even moreso, I always have my routers SSID broadcast turned off, so I manually typed in the name, and WPA passphrase (whopping 64 random characters long), and it connected first time. Of course this was easily done using the new Ubuntu 'Network Manager' tool, which is very capable of connecting to Wireless networks (not secure, WEP, WPA, WPA2 Home, WPA2 Enterprise).

I'm sure that TinyXS has it's advantages over !# for older equipment (seems to have lower memory footprint as the author details), however I'd have to say that !# fares well for older computers/laptops, and fares even better with more modern hardware.

This quote also was a bit contradictory to his initial statement

WARNING: If you already have another OS on your hard drive (Windows or Linux), I DO NOT RECOMMEND ALLOWING CRUNCHBANG to create an MBR boot menu.

Are Linux newbies going to be installing multiple Linux OSes?

Granted they may install Crunchbang alongside Windows. Heck I did it, and it worked without a hitch, thanks to Ubuntu's Installation wizard. The easiest guides on how to dualboot can be found here http://apcmag.com/the_definitive_dualbo … bystep.htm
They have almost every method (whether it is linux installed first or windows).

Granted !# is still in it's infancy stages, and of course, there is room for improvement, however first impressions are... well... impressive.

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#3 2008-12-04 15:29:40

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

**Group Hug**

Last edited by snowpine (2016-07-15 19:03:51)


/hugged

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#4 2008-12-04 16:28:00

razienwolf
#! CrunchBanger
From: SP, Brasil
Registered: 2008-12-01
Posts: 115

Re: Reviews of #!

It has some nice points, but the author doesnt took the time to understand what Crunchbang aims to be.

CrunchBang Linux has been reported to be a ”A Faster Ubuntu”. While CrunchBang Linux is not primarily designed for old systems, it has been reported to operate very well where system resources are limited. Once installed, CrunchBang Linux should boot-up and operate much faster than a regular Ubuntu installation

.

He should've read more =p

Also, by using a old laptop and expecting thinks to just works, he sure has high expectations. But I agree that Crunch is not that user friendly, it lacks some desktop tools for configuring and setting up the system. Anyway.... my grub works like a charm, and it has Windows XP on it. Right outside of the box (or cd)


Crunch its in early stages, it promisses to grow quickly, but for now, I dont think it is really aimed for newbies right now.

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#5 2008-12-04 16:40:21

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

**Group Hug**

Last edited by snowpine (2016-07-15 19:03:44)


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#6 2008-12-04 17:16:38

marf
Member
Registered: 2008-12-03
Posts: 24

Re: Reviews of #!

@snowpine - Issues like having an unsupported Atheros wireless card or troubleshooting a failed dual-boot install can be challenging for newbies regardless of the distro.

exactly what I was trying to get at with my post. You just said it in a nutshell smile

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#7 2008-12-04 17:20:19

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

**Group Hug**

Last edited by snowpine (2016-07-15 19:03:35)


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#8 2008-12-04 17:28:07

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Reviews of #!

Well in the long run I guess everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. That's the nature of reviews. Perhaps the best idea would be to clarify the authors misunderstandings in the comments section of this review. The author may then go back and change certain parts of it which I saw happen in another review this week.

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#9 2008-12-04 17:50:20

bobobex
The Better Half
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-26
Posts: 1,260

Re: Reviews of #!

From Raiden's Realm -

First, I would ask, why, if you want a Linux distribution to be more popular, would you set as default, an unfriendly black desktop background? While this is easy to change: right-click Preferences->Choose Wallpaper, it should not be necessary - bad marketing, IMO.

1st observation - Popularity isn't the issue here - people will make up their own minds whether they like CrunchBang or not. Philip has just increased peoples choice by putting #! out there.

2nd observation - The black desktop is a bit like the Little Black Dress designed by Coco Chanel in the 1920's and still popular today - it's timeless and a classic, unlike wallpapers which go in and out of fashion at the drop of a hat smile  Another comparison would be to a brand new house with magnolia paint on the walls - it's a blank canvas for you to adapt to suit your needs.

With regard to the picture of Philip - I wake up to that every day in the flesh smile


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#10 2008-12-04 17:53:18

razienwolf
#! CrunchBanger
From: SP, Brasil
Registered: 2008-12-01
Posts: 115

Re: Reviews of #!

Regarding the "crunchbang not for newbies" comment, I spend a lot of time over on the Ubuntu Forums, and you should see the huge volume of "help! flash doesn't work! how do I watch youtube!!!" posts! By including codecs and cool applications like Skype, I think #! actually makes things a whole lot easier for newbies.

Sorry about that, I ended up cutting a part of my post.

Yes, crunch comes with almost everything a user needs (not just newbies),  together with Ubuntu that should automatically detect and let everything work outside of the box, crunch almost do everything for the user.

When I said "not aimed for newbies" I was referring to the lack of some desktop configuration tools- for example, I could not get the mouse to use the theme I wanned, it worked on the first session, but after reboot was back to default-  the downside of choosing a WM as default session.

Installing themes, icons, changing the default language, having access to shared folders, mouting internal devices, these kind of things are not for newbies. Can be done, but still not as easy as a full desktop system like gnome or kde.

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#11 2008-12-05 09:15:59

h0bbe
Member
From: Leksand, Sweden
Registered: 2008-11-26
Posts: 13

Re: Reviews of #!

Another review

Red Devil mentioned his review here: http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/post/576/#p576

And here you can read it: http://reddevil62-techhead.blogspot.com … -what.html

Last edited by h0bbe (2008-12-05 09:16:44)

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#12 2008-12-05 10:11:27

NewCityVegas
Resident Tech Reporter
From: ANTI-CENSORSHIP
Registered: 2008-12-02
Posts: 628
Website

Re: Reviews of #!

marf wrote:

Unlike TinyXS, CrunchBang Linux does not acknowledge a "root" login. In fact, after a quick search of the CrunchBang site, I could not even find the default password for user "root".

Are newbie's going to be worried about their root password?

No, and I don't think that was implied, certainly not intentionally.  It was just a statement pointing out to those who may be used to distros with root logins that CrunchBang, like many other distros, operates differently in this regard - not better, not worse, just different.

marf wrote:

Anyways since the author seems to be mainly comparing !# to TinyXS (based off PCLOS from what I can tell). There is very little information on TinyXS however from what I could tell, it seems to be using an older version of linux kernel ( < 2.6.25 ).

TinyXS is another lightweight distro using Openbox (and LXDE).  It is basically the 200MB TinyMe ISO beefed up with additional apps plus added codecs, plugins, Java, etc. and some ease-of-use customization.

TinyXS-max ISO: http://ideaboomer.com/tinyxs-max/ (683MB)
TinyMe 2008.0 ISO: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tinyme … 0.i586.iso (200MB)

marf wrote:

For CrunchBang WPA/WPA2 secure wireless networking, I would guess that some Terminal command-line magic may be required.

This isn't the case.

Your experience and equipment are different.  In my case, I was unable to get my Atheros-based WPA secured wireless network working in CrunchBang although I am certain it could be done with enough research, something a casual Linux user may not choose to do.

marf wrote:

I'm sure that TinyXS has it's advantages over !# for older equipment (seems to have lower memory footprint as the author details), however I'd have to say that !# fares well for older computers/laptops, and fares even better with more modern hardware.

Like most distributions, TinyXS and CrunchBang have their own strong points and weak points.  TinyXS's overlapping menu systems are a mess.  CrunchBang's, OTOH, are well organized and easy to navigate.  TinyXS's desktop icon system is primitive compared to KDE, Gnome, or Windows.  CrunchBang avoids the desktop icon problem altogether - it doesn't use them.  Ubuntu and Crunchbang's Synaptic Package Manager operations seem far more stable than with TinyXS.  I do consider CrunchBang's hardware and networking support to be a weak link compared to the PCC menus of PCLOS, TinyMe, and TinyXS.

marf wrote:

This quote also was a bit contradictory to his initial statement

WARNING: If you already have another OS on your hard drive (Windows or Linux), I DO NOT RECOMMEND ALLOWING CRUNCHBANG to create an MBR boot menu.

Are Linux newbies going to be installing multiple Linux OSes?

The warning was unrelated to "newbies".  I am not a Linux newbie but I was quite concerned when CrunchBang made no effort to query or verify the OS partitions to be included prior to overwriting my existing GRUB MBR bootloader.  Take a look at how TinyMe (and, if I remember correctly, PCLOS) use PCC to "set up how the system boots".  It is not perfect either, but at least they try.  There are few things that annoy one more than having to potentially recover from a trashed MBR.

marf wrote:

Granted !# is still in it's infancy stages, and of course, there is room for improvement, however first impressions are... well... impressive.

In most regards, I agree - there is much to praise and a few things to work on.  If it were not for my positive experience with Openbox using TinyMe, I probably would have never even glanced at CrunchBang.  I'm glad I did.  The overall concept is great and despite a few problems, CrunchBang is already in my personal top tier of usable distros.

Last edited by NewCityVegas (2008-12-05 12:00:00)


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#13 2008-12-05 10:21:36

NewCityVegas
Resident Tech Reporter
From: ANTI-CENSORSHIP
Registered: 2008-12-02
Posts: 628
Website

Re: Reviews of #!

snowpine wrote:

I agree, the review makes a couple of interesting points, but the author seems a little bit obsessed with comparing #! to TinyXS and also somewhat ignorant of how an Ubuntu-based distro works (root login vs sudo). For the record, the #! installer detected my Windows partition without a hitch.

Not a good assumption.  I am quite familiar with sudo and the many distributions that use it.  Are you aware that there are Linux users, however, who may have only tried one or two distros who might expect a "root" login?  My posting about root and sudo was informational - not passing judgment one way or another about their usage in any particular distro.  If you want to imply that I am ignorant about Ubuntu, you would be right - been there, done that, don't care for it.


============= You are the dreamer - and the dream =============

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#14 2008-12-05 10:23:41

NewCityVegas
Resident Tech Reporter
From: ANTI-CENSORSHIP
Registered: 2008-12-02
Posts: 628
Website

Re: Reviews of #!

h0bbe wrote:

Note the nice picture of Philip ;-)

Yep, I kinda liked that one - going for the Elvis Costello thang. wink


============= You are the dreamer - and the dream =============

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#15 2008-12-05 16:33:17

marf
Member
Registered: 2008-12-03
Posts: 24

Re: Reviews of #!

NewCityVegas,

Ahh, TinyXS based from TinyME, I kinda thought it was one or the other. In any case, it still has an older kernel version which was my main point there.

The qualm I had with the review is that it started out on the case that it "wasn't newbie friendly", and you go into review some points that aren't relevant to newbies. I understand you're being thorough, but perhaps you should be clear about this. Or even perhaps have two mini reviews (two conclusions), one fore newbies and one for more experienced linux users.

Anyways, still a nice review, and always refreshing to see points of view from "the other side of the fence".

Cheers!

Last edited by marf (2008-12-05 18:35:49)

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#16 2008-12-05 16:43:04

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

**Group Hug**

Last edited by snowpine (2016-07-15 19:00:38)


/hugged

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#17 2008-12-05 17:58:01

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Reviews of #!

snowpine wrote:

(edit) ps In any Ubuntu distro including #!, it is possible (though not officially recommended) to give the root account a password instead of using sudo, if you prefer...

hmm, you know out of habit more than anything else this is one of the first things I do on a clean install. I rarely use it though.

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#18 2008-12-10 09:45:17

Tosick
#! CrunchBanger
From: Sweden
Registered: 2008-12-08
Posts: 186

Re: Reviews of #!

Unlike another lightweight distribution, TinyXS-max, I could not recommend #! CrunchBang to a Linux newbie.

Im a "newbie" and I must say the so far Crunchbang has been nice and rather obviose of how to handle.
I like it a lot.
The only thing that miss is the LAN GUI, so that I see my "friends" and the NAS.
So until that Im depening on "good old Ubuntu".

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#19 2008-12-10 15:50:06

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

Trouble'n'strife wrote:

2nd observation - The black desktop is a bit like the Little Black Dress designed by Coco Chanel in the 1920's and still popular today - it's timeless and a classic, unlike wallpapers which go in and out of fashion at the drop of a hat smile

Hope you don't mind but I quoted you in another forum, in response to "I took a quick look on the interweb at this crunchbang site, it looks a bit gloomy, all black, I thought ubuntu was bad enough, what about a nice pink theme for us girlies?"

I also gave her a link to this pink Openbox theme: http://box-look.org/content/show.php/Pi … tent=64129

smile


/hugged

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#20 2008-12-10 17:35:40

bobobex
The Better Half
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-26
Posts: 1,260

Re: Reviews of #!

^^ No problems. What was the forum she posted on?


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#21 2008-12-10 17:37:42

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

Sorry, here is the link: http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?id=53996

There is a funny #! screenshot. smile


/hugged

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#22 2008-12-10 17:44:25

bobobex
The Better Half
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-26
Posts: 1,260

Re: Reviews of #!

LOL - that's not a funny #! screenshot - that's brilliant and I want one lol

Wonder if Philip will let me?


Politeness, Respect, Trust, Humility - forum etiquette I abide by!
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#23 2008-12-10 17:54:23

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,131
Website

Re: Reviews of #!

Trouble'n'strife wrote:

Wonder if Philip will let me?

I would let you, but I am afraid it is illegal to have a pink desktop. Honest! big_smile


Ex-developer of #! CrunchBang. Follow me on Twitter smile

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#24 2008-12-10 17:55:25

michaelramm
The Inquisitor
From: Northport, AL USA
Registered: 2008-11-30
Posts: 175
Website

Re: Reviews of #!

corenominal wrote:
Trouble'n'strife wrote:

Wonder if Philip will let me?

I would let you, but I am afraid it is illegal to have a pink desktop. Honest! big_smile

It is definitely illegal in the States, now who knows what you brits are up to!

Michael


The 1-Man IT Department | Ubuntu User #16666 | Linux User #451972
My Social Nets: Identi.ca | twitter | friendfeed
Crunchbangin' and Loving Every Minute of IT!

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2008-12-10 18:02:46

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,984

Re: Reviews of #!

Sadly, my better half is an XP user and just doesn't "get" #!.

Last night I showed here the new #! lite and she said "I don't really see how it's different than Windows."

yikes


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