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#1 Re: News & Announcements » The end. » 2015-02-06 22:32:04


For all my bitching and whining I have always felt that this was a great distro. Super simple and minimal OOTB with unlimited potential. You did a great job man. My best wishes for you.

#3 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-20 02:16:05

Maybe it marks me as old and boring, but all the systemd weirdness aside, Microsoft just announced they are open sourcing the .net framework, and they actually have a list of open-source projects that they maintain. The world is not just changing, but changing in weird ways. I think my next hardware purchase will be a nice fountain pen, and an equally nice notebook.  tongue

#4 Re: Devel: CrunchBang 12 "Janice" » Ideas for Janice » 2014-11-15 21:03:07

Or an option not to install any of them so you can install what you want.

That's kind of what I meant. Something that is scalable both ways - as much or as little as you want. That would be cool.

#5 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-13 04:18:49

Shortly before I started using #!, I was planning a distro of my own. Once I started looking into different options for INIT, which was fairly early on, is when I first really encountered systemd (I was really out of the loop for a while). I was so disheartened by, well everything, that I pretty much have tossed that notebook into a corner someplace. Who knows? Maybe someday, maybe never.

I'll get off my soapbox and stop bitching now.

#6 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-13 00:05:09

My bad. I sometimes have difficulty reading sarcasm out of text. It's a shame, really.  smile

#7 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-12 18:03:46

@ TicTac & Sector11 - Thanks for the high praise!

@common-sense -

I cannot fathom your logic. No hostility intended, but I really don't follow your conclusion. So, systemd is bad, let's use systemd?

In my view, the strength of Linux and open source has always stemmed from it's diversity which allows both small and large projects an equal oppertunity to contribute in some way. Replacing that diversity with homoginization seems like a step backwards to me. I want to run #!, or Slackware, so I run #! or Slackware. If I wanted Red Hat, I would have installed and used Red Hat. If you are comfortable with Red Hat dictating what Desktop Environment to use, what apllications you can or cannot run and which package managers you will or will not be allowed to use, then, by all means, choose systemd.

The bigger issue with systemd, is the potential for abuse later down the road. Is Red Hat planning a draconian take over of the entire Linux ecosystem? That remains to be seen. However, I cannot logically conclude any rational reason why systemd needs so much far reaching control to do nothing that is particularly new. If this is Red Hat's eventual goal, I don't think it is something you would see happen overnight. As time passes, and project maintainers become increasingly frustrated with having to basically implament more and more of Red Hat's codebase at the expense of their own hard work, and vision for their individual distros, I think you will begin to see many of the distros that exist today closing up shop, taking their ball, and going home.

Also, just want to mention that jumping ship to BSD will likely not solve any of this, either. As long as Red Hat has the ability to continually break any compatibility layer that the BSD guys come up with, then they have the power to keep Linux software on linux. That is why being POSIX compliant was so important.

Again, I think much of this is moot. I think that now that most of the distros have adopted it, the next step is for Red Hat to start getting more Linux apps dependent on systemd, and after that, if they choose to (and I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't) you might as well just install and run Red Hat, or get out of Linux land.

#8 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-11 23:28:10

Please, I am as guilty as anyone of being angry over this topic, but let's simmer down a bit. For any ruffled feathers I personally may have caused, let me be the first to apologize. This is a very frustrating issue for some of us, and it is made more poignant by the fact that many of us are very passionnant about Linux and Open Source. This isn't about fanboys or bois and it's not about old people having a mid-life crisis because of some new thing has changed the old thing.  tongue Anger comes from fear, and I want to tell you what I am afraid of. Let me be clear, I hope I'm dead wrong. I hope this whole issue blows over, but I really think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

First, before someone else tells me to "just install a different Init system" or posts a link to an explination of what Init is, you first need to understand that simply Installing a diferent Init will only work for the time being. However, as more and more applications become dependant on sytemd, these other init systems may continue to boot your system, but there is most certainly reason to assume that none of your userland apps will continue to work, effectively breaking other init systems. Pottering alluded to this when he made the statement "Gentoo, this is your wake-up call". This is precisly the reason OpenBSD has begun work on a compatibility layer for applications that require systemd to function. Please bear in mind that while this is probably the most elegant solution to the problem, it is not without issues of its own. Namely, that Red Hat could potentially choose to constantly break that compatibility layer by changing the way apps interact with systemd. On the Linux side of things, it's seems a little ridiculous to run a compatibility layer for native Linux apps running on a native linux box. It would be a bit like running wine on Windows.

Second, depending on how much of the system gets absorbed and how much software chooses to adopt systemd as a dependency, Red Hat will have more and more power to make unilateral decisions that affect every distro (including this one) that is so dependant upon systemd. This could potential ruin your day even if you are only concerned with your userland experience. As a completely arbitrary example, would you still be singing the systemd praises if suddenly your ability to use openbox as a window manager were suddenly broken, or your ability to install software with apt or pacman. I'm willing to bet you wouldn't. While I will agree that these examples are far fetched, the fact that such a scenario is even possible is quite terrifying.

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion, or at least doesn't cause any more. I hope things don't go this way, I really do. If we want to see Linux continue to prosper, then please everyone,let's focus on the issue at hand. No progress can be made if we continue to fight among each other.

#9 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-11 17:24:32

That's kind of crazy. Such a loss for Debian. Has there been any word on what he is planning on doing next?

#10 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-10 06:08:43

I really don't think age is the issue here. Lack of experience, maybe.

Nope, but oldtimers seem to think that linux should be just for them, and optimized forthe way that they use their computers. But everyone should understand that the way people use computers are changing, and linux has to change with it. Nope, the average user  is not 60+ and sitting nicely in front of a desktop pc.

Linux isn't Windows. it never was. It use to be the distro maintainers handed it to you and said "here you go, do with it what you will." This meant you could optimize how you wanted, to meet your own individual needs. The problem with the whippersnappers is they don't want to have to actually do any work to optimize there own system. They seem content to let someone else do that for them. I guess I should just be happy and let Red Hat make all of my decisions for me. Why not? It seems to work for Microsoft and Apple, right?  wink

#11 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-10 01:10:36

That is pretty interesting. I have used OpenBSD a few times, and I really liked it, though truthfully I didn't get to use it much. I wonder how the other BSDs will cope as KDE becomes more integrated with it? I know they are planning to.

#12 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-09 23:06:16

That would be Red Hat. I wonder at the future of BSD as well. A lot of software is developed for Linux, then ported to BSD. Curious to see how that mess will play out.

#13 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-09 20:37:25

I don't dislike systemd because it's new or different. I dislike it for reducing my freedom of choice to zero. Not trying to be argumentative, but I realize there are many init systems to choose from. That's not the point, the point is that as long as it continues to not only absorb other parts of the system that have nothing to do with init, and software continues to be made dependent on it, then those other init systems will be broken. No one has the manpower to fork and maintain separate non-systemd dependent versions of all the software needed to make a complete distro. I respect others right to choose to install and use systemd if that's what they want. All I ask for is the same respect for my freedom to choose something else. Unfortunately, I believe that at this point it is moot. Unless something big changes in the future, it's pretty clear that systemd has won. We will be able to choose something else for a while, but eventually everything is going to be dependent on it eventually, and that saddens me greatly.

#14 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-09 03:17:27

I wasn't trying to "flamebait", as you put it. Arguing this any further would be unproductive. If I have offended you somehow, then I apologize. It was never my intention.

#15 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-08 22:36:46

jeffreyC wrote:

And how long after that until they make the RedHat logo a dependency of systemd?

Don't give them any ideas.  lol

#16 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-08 18:16:28

I, too, feel the systemd arguments are growing stale. However, they will continue so long as people feel there has been no resolution on this issue.

porkpiehat wrote:

But the haters won't want to accept this

I'm not a hater, I have a rational objection to the aforementioned systemd.

porkpiehat wrote:

so this will be my last post on this subject

Convenient, that. Clearly you had something to say, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place.

porkpiehat wrote:

if you understand your system, it is quite easy to use another init

The implication here being what? That I do not understand my system because I don't agree with your inept opinion of the situation? Perhaps I am mistaken, but it sounds as if you are trying to say "You don't agree with me, your dumb." without sounding juvenile. (It's not working, fyi) As if we, the ignorant dissenters could just see the light, we would drop everything and run, skipping and clapping, into the loving arms of systemd. The truth is, there are many systemd naysayers whose sum total of the Linux system towers over mine and yours put together. There are many reasons, both technical and philosophical that users have expressed for not liking systemd.

porkpiehat wrote:

it is even easy to use busybox or openrc init on Arch, one of the distros that has completely adopted systemd.

That is not even a point that was being discussed. This is true, for the moment. People are upset because it won't be so easy to do in the future, as more and more components of the system are being made dependent on systemd (e.g. kdbus)

porkpiehat wrote:

Far from limiting choice, systemd has spawned the creation of many alternate init systems

What would those be? You imply that somehow systemd showed up, and brought with it all these wonderful new choices for us. It didn't  Busybox was originally written in 1995 and Openrc came out in 2007. Systemd was released in 2010.

I welcome any productive discussion from either side of the fence, but please keep in mind the title of this thread is pretty clearly for those opposed to systemd's adoption. If you just dropped in to spread a little FUD, then kindly go back to pooping in your own litter box.

#17 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-07 22:41:31

It remains to be seen if the other distros can hold out forever. Red Hat is a major upstream contributor, and we still don't really know how much of the system they plan on making systemd dependent. Pottering has expressed one of his goals is to homoginize the distros. Supposedly, they are re-thinking package management as well. I wonder if they can force that via systemd. It really feels like they just want everybody to run Red Hat with a Debian or Arch or whatever branding stamped on it. I am truly worried about the future of the Linux Distro. I am only speculating, but if Red Hat were to succeed in pushing such an agenda, I think it would be time to let Linux die a graceful death. I mean, if it turns out that is the case, it would be very hard for the distros that adopted it to back out without having to be set back by an order of magnitude. Sure, you can just switch Init systems, but you would also have to come up with some solution for every piece that systemd has swallowed in the last few years, or rely on things like shims, but that feels like a very inelegant solution -ie a stop-gap measure rather than a permanent solution.

#18 Re: Artwork & Screenshots » First #! Inspired Render » 2014-11-07 05:21:58

@HisVirusness Awesome pic of Sektor, from Mortal Kombat!

#19 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » NSA Reportedly Intercepting Laptops Purchased Online » 2014-11-07 04:35:27

I think it's naive to assume that any government out there with even marginally capable ability to spy on individuals, regardless of geolocation or privacy laws, isn't doing so. I also think that it's very likely that it has been going on for a very long time. As a previous poster stated, most of us live relatively boring lives, just trying to make ends meet and are relatively uninteresting to anyone who may be engaged in such clandestine goings-on. For example, the biggest obsticles I have had to overcome in the last month have consisted of paying bills, airing up the tires of our cars and fixing the broken plumbing in my toilet. Not exactly living like Bond or Bourne in my house.  tongue

#20 Re: CrunchBang Talk » Your CrunchBang Linux system » 2014-11-04 03:23:23

Right now, I have it running on my little Dell inspiron mini, and an old Dell Diminsions 4550 -

mini - Intel atom n270 / 1 GB RAM / 160 gb hdd / Intel Graphics

Diminsions - Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz, 2 GB RAM, Nvidia 7600 AGP, 80 GB HDD

#22 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » boycott systemd » 2014-11-03 05:08:06

I remember reading somewhere that OpenBSD was looking at it, not as a replacement, but if a lot of applications begin adopting it as a dependency. They will have to do something to make those apps function correctly.

#23 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » NSA Reportedly Intercepting Laptops Purchased Online » 2014-11-03 02:40:40

I will agree, but the method seems ridiculous. The article does not indicate the scope, but if you were to try something like this on a fairly large scale, I think it would be a logistical nightmare. Not saying it's not possible, just seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth, unless they had very specific targets.

#24 Re: Off Topic / General Chat » Keyboard Discussion thread of #! » 2014-11-02 23:29:20

No, but I could put that $70 toward a new computer. I have found several motherboards that cost less than that.  tongue Not that I really have room for one right now. I tend to use a computer until it is dead beyond all chance of repair. I regularly harvest parts from one to keep another going. Basically, I deal in junk!  lol People have a tendancy to give me old computers they have found in their garage and whatnot. Right now, I am using an old Dell Dimension 4550. It has a 2.4 Ghz P4, 2 gigs of RAM and I added an Nvidia 7600 AGP card. The thing that stinks about Dell is their use of non - standard PSUs but whatever. The one in this one is still going, for the moment.

#25 Re: Devel: CrunchBang 12 "Janice" » Ideas for Janice » 2014-11-02 23:18:03

Boo systemd! I know, I'm probably the odd man out.

Perhaps the installer could just ask you which media player/graphics editor/document viewer/text editors you want? Maybe I am just crazy.  tongue

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