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#76 2013-07-14 12:22:12

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

@ intoCB...

I have no problems agreeing with every thing you say here. But my perspective is that Debian doesn`t need to fill this part, because there are lots of Debian-derivates that will do this. If you look at all the successfull distros that are based on Debian, you will see that Debian is very strong, as a base. So be it that it`s not as strong as a distro. Debian doesn`t seem to focus on the distro-part, because there`s no effort in appearance. They supply you with a working desktop if you want to, but there are no attempt to present the user with a good looking desktop. Take a look at the xfce-version, you get something like this:
Screenshot+-+01082013+-+04:13:22+PM.png

To me this doesn`t seem as Debian are trying to sell itself to the main population. It`s a generic boring look, that only will appeal to those that know that they`re able to make it look however they want. People who are somewhat skilled to start with. They see past the boring desktop, and look at it as a blank canvas ready for tweaking and customizing.


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#77 2013-07-14 12:27:01

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,982

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

Yes - it currently looks boring but there's nothing in the social contract about that says that drabness is a core Debian value.

I'm not saying all people running Mint should be running Debian but where Debian can regain Mint and Ubuntu users, it's better for Debian because it brings these people more into the project. Ubuntu and Mint are essential commercial in nature but benefiting from a Debian whose strength comes at least in part from another set of values.

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#78 2013-07-14 12:54:56

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

intoCB wrote:

Yes - it currently looks boring but there's nothing in the social contract about that says that drabness is a core Debian value.

I'm not saying all people running Mint should be running Debian but where Debian can regain Mint and Ubuntu users, it's better for Debian because it brings these people more into the project. Ubuntu and Mint are essential commercial in nature but benefiting from a Debian whose strength comes at least in part from another set of values.

Well, but as I see it, there is no way that Debian can do this, without offering the same hardware-support and ootb-experience. In my mind it`s the "free" policy that limits Debian from becoming a real competitor to Ubuntu and Mint.

Heck, I downloaded the wrong image myself a few weeks ago. I wanted the netinstall, but not the one without non-free enabled. So of course, during the install I was asked to supply the firmware manually, but there is a bug that doesn`t let you do that, so after wasting time on finding the firmware and putting it on an usb-stick, you realize that you have no other option than to google this issue, and of course, the solution is to download another iso...

In my mind, this is the biggest problem for a average pc-user with Debian:
screenshot-07142013-024253pm.png

This button should lead to a ISO that will work for most people. The more advanced users can look for the exact correct iso for them, with or without non-free, with or without a desktop, netinstall or full iso... Instead, Debian makes the newbies search for a usable image for them. This tells me that Debian wants to push the netinstall without hardware-support, and in my mind this has to be the wrong approach if you want to become a mainstream choice. Others might read Debians intentions otherwise, which I fully respect, even though I can not understand how it`s possible to read it in any other way.


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#79 2013-07-14 13:24:07

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,982

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

Ah but we're talking about what can be, not the way things are. My point is that with a change of communication and marketing (in the broad sense) strategy, Debian can stay as it is and be more accessible.

Which was my point out Linuxbbq style remixes. Imagine like your config as a limited edition distro. That's all. So people could see that the ugly base is just a starting point.

Anyway, this is becoming pub talk. The best way to influence Debian is to get involved.

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#80 2013-07-14 14:36:36

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

^ Well said intoCB, that should be blogged somewhere


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#81 2013-07-14 14:44:42

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,681

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

@intoCB:  I like your comparison of Linux to music. cool

Anyone who has spent any time shopping - or worse, working - in a typical brick-and-mortar retailer with a canned music playlist may have noticed a song with the lyrics

Squint your eyes and look closer.
I'm not between you and your ambition.
I am a Poster Girl with no poster;
I am 32 Flavors and then some.

...which is, of course, the Alana Davis cover of "32 Flavors" by Ani DiFranco.  Now, I'm sure there are several people a day who notice the lyrics, look them up online, and discover Ani's music; the vast majority, however, may think "Hey, catchy tune"...if they even notice it at all.  Ubuntu is kinda like Canonical's "cover" of Debian's interpretation of GNU/Linux; the people who "look closer" and find Debian and other less-publicized distros tend to already have some knowledge, aptitude, and interest in the OS beyond blogging and playing Angry Birds.

EDIT:  I'd love to be able to walk into a pub and talk about Linux. lol

Last edited by pvsage (2013-07-14 14:46:07)


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#82 2013-07-14 16:20:11

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

intoCB wrote:

Ah but we're talking about what can be, not the way things are. My point is that with a change of communication and marketing (in the broad sense) strategy, Debian can stay as it is and be more accessible.

Which was my point out Linuxbbq style remixes. Imagine like your config as a limited edition distro. That's all. So people could see that the ugly base is just a starting point.

Anyway, this is becoming pub talk. The best way to influence Debian is to get involved.

LOL. Ok, then I guess we don`t disagree to much. I`m only a bit worried that as new user-grups enter the scene, debian will start to work in the direction that other mainstream os does, and that`s the reason why I left MS to begin with. Hackability is offered to become less confusing to ordinary users. In addition, they are all getting sidetracked in optimizing for touch-screen, and that`s also another reason why I don`t want Debian to become mainstream. It would be a tragedy if the "pad-users" would become the majority in Debian, because they would push for changes that i don`t like at all, as I prefer that someone still have a bit of focus on the old-fashioned regular desktop...

I`m of those that are counting on the touch-hysteria to blow over. Of course there will be pads, tablets and smartphones with touch, but at some point everyone will realize that touch is a load of crap on laptops and desktop-pc`s, and that it`s not a good idea to try and fit all kinds of devices and gadgets into the same OS and the same GUI...


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#83 2013-07-15 05:18:19

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 2,144

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

ew wrote:

I`m of those that are counting on the touch-hysteria to blow over. Of course there will be pads, tablets and smartphones with touch, but at some point everyone will realize that touch is a load of crap on laptops and desktop-pc`s, and that it`s not a good idea to try and fit all kinds of devices and gadgets into the same OS and the same GUI...

I'm with you, ew.  However, it seems like the people putting out PC magazines are drinking the Kool-Aid.  I read the July issue of Maximum PC and one of the editors/writers said he missed reaching out and touching the screen when he used a laptop without touchscreen technology.  roll

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#84 2013-07-15 12:14:38

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

KrunchTime wrote:
ew wrote:

I`m of those that are counting on the touch-hysteria to blow over. Of course there will be pads, tablets and smartphones with touch, but at some point everyone will realize that touch is a load of crap on laptops and desktop-pc`s, and that it`s not a good idea to try and fit all kinds of devices and gadgets into the same OS and the same GUI...

I'm with you, ew.  However, it seems like the people putting out PC magazines are drinking the Kool-Aid.  I read the July issue of Maximum PC and one of the editors/writers said he missed reaching out and touching the screen when he used a laptop without touchscreen technology.  roll

Yes, unfortunately these editors are always getting on board with the MS-hype, but there are a reason to the fact that W8 is doing worse than Vista at the same time. Even though some young trendy urban people wants this because it`s "cool and exciting", most people don`t. It will blow over. I`m touching my smartphone, but I have no intention touching anything else... If anyone puts their fatty fingers on my screens, they`re pretty much toast.... smile


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#85 2013-07-15 16:25:45

excollier
#! Member
Registered: 2013-03-18
Posts: 54

Re: New Debian Leader Seeks More Innovation Within Project

ew wrote:

.

I`m of those that are counting on the touch-hysteria to blow over. Of course there will be pads, tablets and smartphones with touch, but at some point everyone will realize that touch is a load of crap on laptops and desktop-pc`s, and that it`s not a good idea to try and fit all kinds of devices and gadgets into the same OS and the same GUI...

I do hope you are proved right

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