Question about installing #! on an old IBM machine?

Commander Keen · 2013-03-18 22:09:16

Greetings Forum.
And thank you in advance.

I have a couple of old IBM Mini Tower computers and I am very interested in installing Crunch Bang Linux on them. From everything that I read on other Forums, I am very impressed with Crunch Bang and how it performs on older hardware.

These computers hit the market around August 2002, so they are currently more than 10 years old. (Antiques in computer speak).

Currently, I have Linux Lite installed on the one that I am using at this very moment. It is the one that I am using to send this post.

The following is a brief summary of the standard output (stdout) for

sudo lshw

COMPUTER

Description: Mini Tower Computer
Product: 831063U
Vendor: IBM
Serial #: KANA034

CPU

Product: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 1.80GHz
Version: 15.2.4
Size: 1800MHz
Capacity: 2800MHz
Width: 32 bits
Clock: 100MHz
Capabilities: boot fpu fpu_exception wp vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm up pebs bts

My purpose in providing this information is to determine if Crunch Bang would be a good choice for a computer like this?

It was my goal to be as succinct as possible so as to make this post as readable and practical as it can be and still contain the necessary information. tongue

I hope I have achieved this, however, if more information is needed I am happy to provide it.

Again, thank you in advance, and it is encouraging to see that Linux hasn't totally abandoned the old for the new and more popular hardware.

Respectfully,
CK

Last edited by Commander Keen (2013-03-18 22:10:25)

uname · 2013-03-18 22:46:51

I think no problem with 512 MB RAM (or 256 MB with few applications) and 10 GB HDD.

wuxmedia · 2013-03-18 22:52:05

you're Keen arn't you tongue
i ran #! stable on a old Dell 800mhz laptop - was very happy with it.
^ my 512Mb of ram was a bummer with a few interweb tabs open.

so 2 things;
1, what are your primary uses for these machines? media/web servers? graphics workstations?
2. how much memory. (even so - old memory can be had for not much moolah these days.)

oh yeah, what gfx cards- old nVidias (in my experience) suck extremely bad

Last edited by wuxmedia (2013-03-18 22:54:01)

Commander Keen · 2013-03-19 00:03:07

uname wrote:

I think no problem with 512 MB RAM (or 256 MB with few applications) and 10 GB HDD.

Thank you for your response.

I apologize uname I neglected to add the RAM info on these machines.

I don't remember what kind of memory or the amount on the other machine but this one has 1.5 Gig.'s of Synchronous DIMM's.

The following is the memory configuration on the computer currently in use. (The other is basically a backup machine).
There are 2 memory banks:
bank0 = DIMM DDR Synchronous - 1 GiB
bank1= DIMM DDR Synchronous - 512MiB

The HDD is a Maxtor 20 gig. 7200 rpm. drive.

Of course I added the memory and HDD to this one after the fact.

wuxmedia wrote:

you're Keen arn't you
i ran #! stable on a old Dell 800mhz laptop - was very happy with it.
^ my 512Mb of ram was a bummer with a few interweb tabs open.
so 2 things;
1, what are your primary uses for these machines? media/web servers? graphics workstations?
2. how much memory. (even so - old memory can be had for not much moolah these days.)
oh yeah, what gfx cards- old nVidias (in my experience) suck extremely bad

Commander Keen -"Defender of Earth". Piloting the faithful, "Bean-with-Bacon Megarocket"! big_smile hehehe!

Thanks for the feedback wuxmedia.
This is exactly why I am interested in this OS. I have read several other forums out there that have members claiming the same thing - "Crunchbang runs great on older hardware with low resources.

These machines will be general use boxes. By that I mean, they will be used to browse the web, play games, watch movies, listen to music (CD's and stream) but they will most likely never be used as servers unless I turn one of them into a media server, which is a very strong possibility. If it is able to handle that task. hmm

Unfortunately, they have the dreaded Intel® 82845G Graphics Controller aka, "Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device " in them and that is the real "choke point" in these old computers. However, it is my understanding that Intel has finally fixed their drivers for these old GPU's. I have installed the latest drivers for this GPU for Linux Lite, my current OS.

I have access to a pallet of these old computers if I want them and while it is economically possible to replace the GPU for one or even two of these computers, with old PCI video cards, it would not be for 20-25 of these machines so, if I can find a Linux distribution that will function well with the current configuration, mem. not withstanding, that would be my preference.

I completely agree with you about obtaining older memory cheep. And especially agree with your comment on the older nVidia cards. Personally, I hate them!

I realize that this was a longwinded response to your post and I apologize for it.

Thanks again.

CK

johnraff · 2013-03-19 04:13:45

Hi CK, I can't comment on your Intel graphics card I'm afraid, but this, my current main box, is also an old IBM, an IntelliStation M Pro Type 6220. CPU is Intel Pentium 4 2.80GHz, RAM is 500MB, and it's perfectly usable with #! Statler if you don't open a whole lot of YouTube or GooglePlus tabs in Iceweasel.

I'd guess as long as your graphics controller works out OK those boxes would be fine to use with Crunchbang. Game playing might be the only system-intensive problem area. 20G of hard disk won't let you store many movies, though you should be able to watch them OK.

btw I've got one of those old nVidia cards (Quadro4 580 XGL) and while it's fine with the nVidia driver now, I'm not sure if the newer kernel on Waldorf will support it any more...
(edit: Sorry, I think it's the new X server, not the kernel, that no longer supports legacy nVidia drivers.)

Last edited by johnraff (2013-03-20 04:36:48)

hammy_283 · 2013-03-19 04:18:37

I used to play commander keen, I loved that game when I was a kid. I run CB on my netbook, I don't think you will have a problem. I just thought about this, I wonder if commander keen could crossover to linux?

pvsage · 2013-03-19 05:45:28

Sounds like the hardware you have is more than adequate for running CrunchBang well. As for your "dreaded" graphics chipset...if the developers were able to make Pouslbo play well with Debian, then anything is possible!

Welcome to The Friendliest Corner of the Internets.

uname · 2013-03-19 07:44:38

I think the correct package for your graphic card is

http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xserv … ideo-intel

Please boot from #!-live-cd/usb. i think the graphic card works (fine). Please post from #!

lspci
lsmod

Commander Keen · 2013-03-19 16:18:19

Thank you all for your feedback and also for the warm welcome.

This is truly a great forum and I suspect that #! is going to be equally awesome.

I will download the Live CD and experiment with it to be sure but, I think it will probably replace my current Linux distribution.

uname wrote:

I think the correct package for your graphic card is
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xserv … ideo-intel
Please boot from #!-live-cd/usb. i think the graphic card works (fine). Please post from #!
lspci
lsmod

I will follow your advise and post back with the output of these two commands.

I looked at the url that you provided and I agree. I am certain that these are the latest drivers for the Intel GPU in this computer.

I know that recently there was a flurry of activity on the Launchpad bug report stating that Intel has finally fixed the driver for their legacy GPU (in my case, for the 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE) chipset.

I have read reports on other forums of people that have the same GPU's in their old Dell computers and it seems that Crunchbang is able to handle this graphics processor better than any other Linux distribution they have tried. That's what brought me to this forum.

As stated above, I will run the #! Live CD and follow the instructions you have provided and post back with the results.

Cheers,
CK smile

Commander Keen · 2013-03-20 01:35:46

uname wrote:

I think the correct package for your graphic card is
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/xserv … ideo-intel
Please boot from #!-live-cd/usb. i think the graphic card works (fine). Please post from #!
lspci
lsmod

Sorry about the delay. I had to go out of town this morning so I wasn't able to get back to this thread until just now.

Here are the outputs of the above commands:

lspci

crunchbang@crunchbang:~$ lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE/PE DRAM Controller/Host-Hub Interface (rev 01)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)
00:1d.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 01)
00:1d.1 USB controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 01)
00:1d.2 USB controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 01)
00:1d.7 USB controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-M) USB2 EHCI Controller (rev 01)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 81)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL (ICH4/ICH4-L) LPC Interface Bridge (rev 01)
00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801DB (ICH4) IDE Controller (rev 01)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) SMBus Controller (rev 01)
02:08.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB PRO/100 VE (LOM) Ethernet Controller (rev 81)
02:0c.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10k1 (rev 0a)
02:0c.1 Input device controller: Creative Labs SB Live! Game Port (rev 0a)

lsmod

crunchbang@crunchbang:~$ lsmod
Module Size Used by
fuse 52184 3
mperf 12421 0
speedstep_lib 12574 0
cpufreq_userspace 12520 0
cpufreq_stats 12762 0
cpufreq_powersave 12422 0
cpufreq_conservative 12987 0
bnep 17288 2
bluetooth 103791 7 bnep
rfkill 18516 2 bluetooth
crc16 12327 1 bluetooth
i915 312121 3
snd_usb_audio 71309 1
snd_emu10k1_synth 12916 0
snd_usbmidi_lib 18844 1 snd_usb_audio
gspca_sonixj 25465 0
snd_emux_synth 28069 1 snd_emu10k1_synth
snd_seq_midi_emul 12682 1 snd_emux_synth
video 17459 1 i915
joydev 17010 0
gspca_main 22300 1 gspca_sonixj
snd_seq_virmidi 13015 1 snd_emux_synth
drm_kms_helper 22699 1 i915
videodev 61658 1 gspca_main
media 13692 1 videodev
drm 134220 4 drm_kms_helper,i915
xpad 12853 0
snd_emu10k1 109618 3 snd_emu10k1_synth
ff_memless 12620 1 xpad
snd_ac97_codec 84236 1 snd_emu10k1
snd_util_mem 12659 2 snd_emu10k1,snd_emux_synth
snd_seq_midi 12744 0
snd_seq_midi_event 13124 2 snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_virmidi
snd_rawmidi 22472 4 snd_seq_midi,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_usbmidi_lib
snd_hwdep 12943 3 snd_emu10k1,snd_emux_synth,snd_usb_audio
snd_pcm 53461 3 snd_ac97_codec,snd_emu10k1,snd_usb_audio
snd_page_alloc 12867 2 snd_pcm,snd_emu10k1
snd_seq 39512 5 snd_seq_midi_event,snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_midi_emul,snd_emux_synth
snd_seq_device 13016 5 snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_midi,snd_emu10k1,snd_emu10k1_synth
snd_timer 22356 3 snd_seq,snd_pcm,snd_emu10k1
iTCO_wdt 16945 0
snd 42722 18 snd_timer,snd_seq_device,snd_seq,snd_pcm,snd_hwdep,snd_rawmidi,snd_ac97_codec,snd_emu10k1,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emux_synth,snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_usb_audio
iTCO_vendor_support 12632 1 iTCO_wdt
i2c_algo_bit 12713 1 i915
parport_pc 22036 0
emu10k1_gp 12450 0
parport 31254 1 parport_pc
i2c_i801 12670 0
psmouse 54961 0
soundcore 12921 1 snd
rng_core 12580 0
i2c_core 19116 6 i2c_i801,i2c_algo_bit,drm,videodev,drm_kms_helper,i915
gameport 13375 2 emu10k1_gp
ac97_bus 12462 1 snd_ac97_codec
pcspkr 12515 0
processor 27565 0
serio_raw 12803 0
evdev 17225 5
container 12525 0
shpchp 26717 0
button 12817 1 i915
squashfs 26746 1
loop 17810 2
aufs 125704 77
nls_utf8 12416 1
isofs 30576 1
microcode 17558 0
sg 21476 0
sd_mod 35425 0
sr_mod 17468 1
crc_t10dif 12332 1 sd_mod
cdrom 34813 1 sr_mod
ata_generic 12439 0
ata_piix 21175 1
libata 125014 2 ata_piix,ata_generic
floppy 48087 0
uhci_hcd 22337 0
scsi_mod 135037 4 libata,sr_mod,sd_mod,sg
e100 31465 0
mii 12595 1 e100
ehci_hcd 35509 0
usbcore 104503 8 ehci_hcd,uhci_hcd,xpad,gspca_main,gspca_sonixj,snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_usb_audio
thermal 13103 0
thermal_sys 17752 3 thermal,processor,video
usb_common 12338 1 usbcore
crunchbang@crunchbang:~$

Just running from the Live CD is already much faster than anything I ever imagined. I really like this OS so far. smile

Thanks mate.
CK

uname · 2013-03-20 13:38:58

video                  17459  1 i915

I think the live-cd/usb uses the correct video driver. What's about the performance? Test some applications like browser and Youtube.

Commander Keen · 2013-03-20 19:27:22

uname wrote:

video                  17459  1 i915
I think the live-cd/usb uses the correct video driver. What's about the performance? Test some applications like browser and Youtube.

I didn't even notice. But now that you have brought it to my attention, I agree. I recognize the i915 as being the latest Intel driver for this chipset.

That's incredible. I have tried several other Linux (Debian and other) distributions that claim to support old hardware but none of them provided the latest legacy-Intel video drivers on their Live CD/DVD's.

As far a performance? When I ran Crunchbang from the Live CD, this computer ran faster, and performed better, than it ever has before.
I never saw memory exceed.......hang on a second?

I just had a thought. I wanna try something? A test.

BRB.

Commander Keen · 2013-03-20 23:50:31

OK. Finally! I think I have accomplished what I was trying to do when I first started the above post. It took longer than I expected though, because originally I didn't plan on including a screenshot of my test. Let's face it though, a picture can tell a thousand words. smile

So here's what I did.

Following your recommendation uname, I opened a browser and went to Youtube and selected a random video.

I also opened VLC and started a movie that I have on the HDD
I opened 3 file manager windows to perform different tasks
I installing a game (Oolite) that I play all the time, and added some pretty heavy OXP's (Oolite Expansion Packs-Add On's) to the installed game
then opened and played the game while all of the above was going on

That would never have been possible with any other Linux Distribution that I have tried. Not even the currently installed OS (Linux Lite). And all of this was done from the Live CD. (Actually, in this case it's a Live DVD).

And, under normal circumstances, I can't think of any reason I would need to perform all of these tasks at the same time .

There was a noticeable performance hit with all of this going on at the same time, but nothing that wouldn't be expected with this hardware.
Here are the results
CPU maxed out at 100 % at first, then a few seconds later, dropped to about 83-90% and held there.
RAM maxed at about 590 MiB out of 1.5 GiB and then leveled off at around 390 MiB as the Youtube video finished. And Swap was never accessed. yikes

The only thing that I really noticed was the Youtube video alternated between what I would define as,a normal frame rate and very low and choppy frame rate. And frequently stopped for a few seconds to load the buffer.

The game never missed a beat and the frame rate was great. I'll know more after I install Crunchbang to the HD and play for a protracted period of time. That's usually when I start having problems. But to be fair, it is probably the video hardware mad that's causing the problems, not the OS. In fact I am certain of that.

Here's a couple of screenshots to demonstrate what it looked like:

This one is with everything open and running.

This one is with everything closed out and the system idle

.

I hope this helps.
I realize it's kinda long winded and I apologize for that. I guess I have a habit of running on at times. roll

Respectfully,
CK

Last edited by Commander Keen (2013-03-21 06:04:50)

Commander Keen · 2013-03-22 01:33:33

I just hit a roadblock when trying to install Crunchbang.

Is there a secret to installing this OS?

I tried to install it from the Live DVD but the install froze at the installation menu.

I selected Install and the next thing I saw was a 1" multi-colored bar across the top of the screen and it appeared to be scrolling.

But the install went no further.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

CK

Commander Keen · 2013-03-22 05:43:20

To update my last post, I found something that might answer the problem I'm having installing CrunchBang Linux on this IBM computer.

First of all I apologize for not including more information about my install attempt and the version of CrunchBang that I am trying to install.

I'm not getting any errors; no message at all. As mentioned in the above post, the install just stops at the install screen with the install menu in the middle of the screen and a multi-color - pixel - bar at the very top of the screen that appears to be scrolling?

I am trying to install CrunchBang Linux "Waldorf" 32 bit on a dual boot with Linux Lite and currently there is nothing on the HD except Linux Lite. Grub is my boot manager.

I read the tutorial that johnraff aka #!Drunkard provided in this post, but my question is, is this appropriate to my situation? Since I'm not trying to install from a USB.

The problem with this computer, because of the make and it's age (10 years +) it's BIOS does not support booting from USB so I am obligated to either CD/DVD or network installs.

Is the problem related to trying to install to a duel boot environment? Is Grub a factor? Do I need to format the HD and start fresh?

I have never tried to install over a network so I cannot give any information in that regard. I have never had a problem installing from a CD/DVD though. Until now.

The unfortunate thing about all of this is that I believe that I have actually, finally, found a Linux distribution that is perfect for my needs on the platform that I am currently trying to administer and I cannot get it installed. sad

Any help or advise beyond the information in the post mentioned is graciously appreciated.

Thank you.
CK

uname · 2013-03-22 07:56:10

I read the tutorial that johnraff aka #!Drunkard provided in this post, but my question is, is this appropriate to my situation? Since I'm not trying to install from a USB.

Yes you can use the installation. In the installation from debian-netinstall-cd and wget ... tar.gz is no need for usb-devices.

Last edited by uname (2013-03-22 08:00:35)

xaos52 · 2013-03-22 11:11:46

is this appropriate to my situation? Since I'm not trying to install from a USB.

No. It is not related to you booting off a DVD.

I suspect it is related to your video graphics card.
The installer boots your system with kernel parameter
vga=788 which is 800x600 16bit
which your card can probably not handle properly.
Lets try vga=771, which corresponds with a resolution of 800x600 8-bit

You can try and change the parameter on the boot loader menu by
- selecting the Install line using the arrow keys
- pressing the 'Tab' key should give you the boot options.
You will see an entry vga=788
Change it to vga=771
Then press enter to boot.

Let us know if that helps.
I can't test this because my PC is old, but not that old yet. smile

Cheers.

Last edited by xaos52 (2013-03-22 11:13:00)

Commander Keen · 2013-03-22 22:51:32

xaos52 wrote:

I suspect it is related to your video graphics card.
The installer boots your system with kernel parameter
vga=788 which is 800x600 16bit
which your card can probably not handle properly.
Lets try vga=771, which corresponds with a resolution of 800x600 8-bit
You can try and change the parameter on the boot loader menu by
- selecting the Install line using the arrow keys
- pressing the 'Tab' key should give you the boot options.
You will see an entry vga=788
Change it to vga=771
Then press enter to boot.
Let us know if that helps.
I can't test this because my PC is old, but not that old yet.
Cheers.

With the problems that I've had with this video hardware it doesn't suprise me that this is the cause.

I followed your instructions but it seems that I don't have any control over the text that appears at the bottom of the screen.

When I select Install and then press the [TAB] key I can see the vga=788 line in the text but when I press the back arrow key to edit the text it just feeds another line of the same text.

Am I missing something? Am I doing something wrong?

Your feeback is greatly appreciated.

Also, thank you uname for you feedback. I really appreciate all of your help.

Cheers
CK

xaos52 · 2013-03-23 09:59:16

I had the same problem. Here is a workaround:
- write down the line
- position cursor at the end of the line
- backspace key to remove chars from the end until you reach the vga=
- then fill it up again from what you have written down
hth

Commander Keen · 2013-03-23 18:36:12

xaos52 wrote:

I had the same problem. Here is a workaround:
- write down the line
- position cursor at the end of the line
- backspace key to remove chars from the end until you reach the vga=
- then fill it up again from what you have written down
hth

Thank you.
I'll try that.

By the way, to whom it may concern, I tried to do the cb-netinstall by following the instructions that johnraff provided in his excellent tutorial.

It did not go well. I ended up getting a couple of kernel panic errors stating that some file??? was tainted?
And I failed to document the name of the file(s) that reported the error(s). sad

I wish I could provide more information but I wasn't able to take a screenshot of the error's and it amounted to a screen full of text that would have taken all day to write down. hmm

I'm going to try your suggestion now and hope that it will allow me to install cb. I really like this distro.

I'll post back with the results.

Thank you smile

CK

Commander Keen · 2013-03-23 21:12:42

Great news!! big_smile

I was finally able to get CrunchBang installed!

A heart felt thank you to everyone that commented on this post and helped me.

Thank you xaos52 for your instructions. Changing the Install line from vga=788 to vga=771 allowed the intallation to complete successfully.

Looking forward to using #! and applying it to these old machines. tongue

Respectfully,

CK

wuxmedia · 2013-03-23 23:50:35

^ another happy patient carefully treated by the good doctor glasses

xaos52 · 2013-03-24 10:07:16

Glad it helped. smile

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#1 2013-03-18 22:09:16