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#1 2012-12-10 09:57:49

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Apple's single greatest crime

Forget data privacy, walled gardens and such stuff. The single worst legacy Apple will leave behind is their idiotic marketing lingo. I can understand talking to people like they're idiots, marketing people have thought this for decades, but starting sentences with "and"?! This is from the new iPad's page: is everything you’ll love about iPad mini, too. And you can hold it in one hand.

They've had this for years. But, now, everybody else is copying them. This is from Google Fiber's page: ...or by accessing the high speed Wi-Fi. And stay safe with the gigabit firewall.

Pretty much everybody else is doing this. So, yeah, illiterate morons, maybe you think your customers can't finish a multi-verb sentence before buying something else, but this. YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

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#2 2012-12-10 10:52:22

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,042

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

Oh yeah, I forgot you're the English PhD. Thing about marketing is, the language used is secondary as long as you get the message across. While not everyone can use a universal language like Bentley can, they often try to cram as much "mojo" into as short a sentence as possible. We're long past the "best products don't need any advertising" age, sadly.

Your problem is that you give the human race too much credit. Forget The Idiot, it's The Simpleton that makes up the single biggest lowest common denominator in any society. They're the ones likely to buy stuff they don't need (the average household has way too many punch bowls), attempt stuff they can't do (like drive) and fall into debt they can't pay (tis good for the consumer spending index). Target these people in a language they understand, and you win.

With regards to starting sentences with "and", there was this study I read about some time ago (was in a newspaper, hence no link), where they somehow found out that the majority of native English speakers often started sentences with "and" in their thoughts. No idea how they even conducted that study (sounds suspect, no?), but maybe it's got something to do with English being a language you studied, not one you naturally started speaking in (assume your mothertongue is Hrvatski). Might seem a bigger crime to your thought process than that of an Brit or American's, perhaps?

There was this talk on TED where this (famous?) guy explained how/why Apple is so successful at marketing. You should search for it (Google "ted talks apple marketing"). It actually makes a lot of sense, but I wager that your reaction, as a techie person (techie in this case meaning someone who is able to make an outdated PC run like new thanks to an OSS distro), will be "How the phuq does Apple get away with this? Is everyone stupid?". Thing is, show that talk to someone not as techie, like your mom or gf or whatever, and they'll go, "Ooooh... That's genius!!"

Anyways, I'm rambling.
Let's all just blame that nice "and then, and then, and then" Chinese take-out lady from that forgettable Ashton Kutcher flick!!

Last edited by gutterslob (2012-12-10 11:03:40)


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#3 2012-12-10 11:06:02

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

No, no, I'm not mad at the marketing lingo or tech stuff and I completely dig Apple's marketing scheme (the gadget is your friend and stuff). Hell, when I go to their webiste, I sometimes find myself wanting to buy some of their stuff. The hate comes more from my stint as a journalist. Every time I saw an idiot colleague starting a sentence with a preposition, I had this reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GouetWLCX9Y

It's actually quite customary to start sentences with prepositions in every spoken Western language, but it's pretty much a hanging offense in written form.

Last edited by el_koraco (2012-12-10 11:09:38)

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#4 2012-12-10 11:20:20

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 3,909

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

El_K the Grammar Nazi!  devil

No but seriously, I noticed it too. It's just plain stupid. You'd get a heart attack if you come to Holland and see the spelling levels of students and even business people! Even in official letters it happens....


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#5 2012-12-10 11:40:57

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

I blame the teechur'z wink

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#6 2012-12-10 12:10:25

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,923

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

Marketing language is a special case.

Its prime objective is to sell to the customer by eliciting an emotional response to purchase. Those fuzzy warm feelings etc.

It doesn't have to be grammatically correct to be valid, since the criteria on which it is ultimately judged are purely sales-based. It either sells or it doesn't, which is why David Ogilvy believed new copywriters should work in direct marketing first. Copywriting is simply sales in written form.

Correct grammar does lots of important things but it doesn't win hearts and minds or sell products.

Like Homer Simpson said: You don't win friends with salad. And you don't sell Apple products with correct grammar.


The other day I told this female programmer that she was an instantiation of the Goddess class and that I admired her attributes. I thought she'd take this as a compliment but she just complained that I was treating her as an object.

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#7 2012-12-10 12:24:47

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

el_koraco wrote:

It's actually quite customary to start sentences with prepositions in every spoken Western language, but it's pretty much a hanging offense in written form.

No it isn't.  tongue

I would avoid doing it out of habit, but as long as you can understand what is being written I don't see what the issue is.

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#8 2012-12-10 12:51:58

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

Well, since I had a brain freeze and declared conjunctions to be prepositions, I will go lick my wounds somewhere.

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#9 2012-12-10 13:08:38

schwim
#! Die Hard
From: Interweb's #1 Devotee
Registered: 2012-10-11
Posts: 604

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

el_koraco wrote:

Every time I saw an idiot colleague starting a sentence with a preposition, I had this reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GouetWLCX9Y

And to think that some people feel the same about ending a sentence with a preposition. (3:25 for relevant anger towards topic at hand)

(I get bonus points for that sentence.)

Last edited by schwim (2012-12-10 13:10:56)

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#10 2012-12-10 13:11:58

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,106

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

^^^I don't think Paul.W, whoever he is, is the final word on whether conjunctions are ok to start sentences with. In formal language, they certainly are not. The point of a full stop is to mark the end of a sentence, hence a conjunction should not be used, and instead should generally be used within a sentence. But the beauty of language, in my opinion, is that it is poetic, and though strewn with rules and formalities, allows a degree of freedom. So sometimes I think it adds more force to a sentence to begin with a conjunction. As others have noted, it creates a sense of the colloquial, and, me personally, I think it adds a sense of movement, continuity, or beforeness, that is nice to relate to. It springs the imagination, which is what marketing is all about. But when it comes to Apple I would criticize it. Because when they use it is deceptive: they are one of the largest global corporations, and to present themselves in a colloquial way is to put backstage all their corporate routines. It bothers me more though all the crap rhetoric that Steve Jobs used to spout. About working on an apple farm, taking acid, being a hippy and all those lies. There is people where I work who have his picture up on their doors and the walls of their offices. They feel they relate to all that crap. But its just deception.

In the Guandong province in China, more than 10 workers for Apple and Foxconn have jumped out of windows, to their death, because conditions are so bad. "And, hey, we're ex-hippies, you know, we used to take acid and everything". Oh come on.

Last edited by dura (2012-12-10 13:15:56)

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#11 2012-12-10 13:24:18

Naik
#! Die Hard
From: Leipzig
Registered: 2012-11-16
Posts: 567

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

t doesn't have to be grammatically correct to be valid, since the criteria on which it is ultimately judged are purely sales-based. It either sells or it doesn't, which is why David Ogilvy believed new copywriters should work in direct marketing first. Copywriting is simply sales in written form.

Correct grammar does lots of important things but it doesn't win hearts and minds or sell products.

You are right, but sice every successfull marketing campaign is raisng some kind of trend in society by leading the customer to identify with the product, they are responsable for the effekt it takes on society too, because he (the customer) identifies with the language used, as well as with the feelings spread. Even if this is not happening  consciously the outcome of an inappropriate use of language stays the same and worst thing is the "If Apple does it, it can`t be too bad"-attitude it leaves on ignorant little grammar-violators all around the world...  wink


*kaum macht man es richtig, funktioniert es sofort*

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#12 2012-12-10 13:51:14

nore
#! Junkie
From: Lakeland
Registered: 2009-11-28
Posts: 463

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

el_koraco wrote:

And you can hold it in one hand.

Why not make it even better with extra splitting and capitalizing:

And. You can HOLD it. In ONE hand.

Now say that with your best James Earl Jones bass.

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#13 2012-12-10 14:05:27

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,042

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

Not that I'm defending Apple or anything, but....

dura wrote:

In the Guandong province in China, more than 10 workers for Apple and Foxconn have jumped out of windows, to their death, because conditions are so bad. "And, hey, we're ex-hippies, you know, we used to take acid and everything". Oh come on.

Fwiw, Foxconn builds computing and mobile products for a number of companies. You just hear the name "Apple" most often because they're one of Foxconn's biggest clients, but all the corporations share equal blame. Till today, it hasn't been proven whether every single one of those suicidees were actually working on Apple-related production lines or not. Some might have been building iDevices, while others could have been assembling Samsung Galaxies or Dell Vostros. Same case for a lot of the other things we use on a daily basis, sadly. The clothes you wear are probably made by underage children working in similarly bad conditions somewhere in China, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. Oh, and that Lemote YeeLoong that Richard Stallman keeps raving about is most probably made in a factory with much worse working conditions than Foxconn's.


dura wrote:

But when it comes to Apple I would criticize it. Because when they use it is deceptive: they are one of the largest global corporations, and to present themselves in a colloquial way is to put backstage all their corporate routines. It bothers me more though all the crap rhetoric that Steve Jobs used to spout. About working on an apple farm, taking acid, being a hippy and all those lies. There is people where I work who have his picture up on their doors and the walls of their offices. They feel they relate to all that crap. But its just deception. There is people where I work who have his picture up on their doors and the walls of their offices.

While I do think it's rather sad that people hang pictures of corporate CEOs on their walls (instead of say, sportsmen, porn nymphs or Miyamoto game characters), I don't quite agree with singling Apple alone out with regards to "deception". There's nothing wrong with a company presenting themselves in a "non-corporate" way. In fact, you could argue that it's better. Besides, all companies practice some form of deception. Apple puts on a humanist front to mask a the ruthless corporate entity they are, so what? Google acts all open-sourcey and freedom-luvin' to get your data. Cellular carriers use words like "connecting you" and "value-added"  to bind you to their expensive data plans (while also mining your data).

Aside from that, while Jobs wasn't exactly a saint, he's practically spotless compared to many CEOs in the world today. Who knows what kind of back door dealings other tech (IBM & Nazi Germany, anyone?) companies conduct with governments. Many in the western world have no idea what kind of crimes the owners and board members of Samsung have been suspected and convicted of (mob activity, money laundering, political corruption, etc).  As much as you might disagree with Apple's way of working, you have to realize they're still (mostly) playing by the rules, at least. Patent hoarding and corporate lobbying are still considered legal (thanks to a broken system - blame the game not the players) for the most part.

Anyhooz, I've gone off on a tangent way too much already. Sorry.

Last edited by gutterslob (2012-12-10 14:36:58)


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#14 2012-12-10 14:52:10

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,106

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

gutterslob wrote:

Not that I'm defending Apple or anything, but....

...anytime anyone says something about them you will defend them. I think it's beside the point whether Foxconn produce for multiple companies. They produce for Apple, so Apple is explicitly related to their working conditions, and support them, even if they purposefully contract out production so that there is limited liability when it comes to working conditions. If they were the hippies they pretend to be, then they wouldn't be anywhere near this sort of thing, nor would they be as closed as they are.

gutterslob wrote:

I don't quite agree with singling Apple alone out with regards to "deception"

This is a thread about Apple, so the point of talking about Apple is that it is related to the thread's topic. If you want, we can start a thread to talk about all the other bad apples around. And, hey, are you really saying that because this is normal corporate policy that its ok? I think not. It's useful to focus on Apple because of the paradox they are.

gutterslob wrote:

Besides, all companies practice some form of deception.

Ok. Maybe you are saying that. Let's just forget it then and enjoy these lovely white devices while people kill themselves in protest.

gutterslob wrote:

Apple puts on a humanist front to mask a the ruthless corporate entity they are, so what?

They have no corporate social responsibility. Everything is pure deception, inherently unethical. But they do create great stuff. Yup. Let's just forget it then.

gutterslob wrote:

Aside from that, while Jobs wasn't exactly a saint, he's practically spotless compared to many CEOs in the world today.

Ok. Let's forget it then. It's normal policy. Hence, it is acceptable.

gutterslob wrote:

As much as you might disagree with Apple's way of working, you have to realize they're still (mostly) playing by the rules, at least

Sorry, what rules are these you are talking about? Business; ethics; something more important to human nature and worker experience? Is a well functioning machine designed for graphic and music production that important?

gutterslob wrote:

Patent hoarding and corporate lobbying are still considered legal (thanks to a broken system - blame the game not the players) for the most part.

I would blame the players, because, afterall, the 'system' is a human production. By that logic anything is acceptable- because your point just states that if a mode of production exists people involved in that system have no responsbility to change it. You play structure over agency, and negate that business, etc., is actually meant to be good for society. Considering how powerful and all mighty Apple is, it would be good to see them enacting some of their corporate marketing rubbish and actually taking the higher ground, espousing true corporate responsibility, and either becoming vertically integrated so they have control over how their products are made, or develop proper worker conditions in those organizations that they work with.

Last edited by dura (2012-12-10 15:15:08)

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#15 2012-12-10 15:10:13

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,923

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

[If you're reading this, someone has stolen my post]

Last edited by intoCB (2012-12-11 12:53:40)


The other day I told this female programmer that she was an instantiation of the Goddess class and that I admired her attributes. I thought she'd take this as a compliment but she just complained that I was treating her as an object.

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#16 2012-12-10 15:44:45

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,042

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

I'm not going to bother rebutting, since we're already grossly off-topic, but...

dura wrote:

...anytime anyone says something about them you will defend them.

You haven't been on this forum that long, have you?


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#17 2012-12-10 16:07:06

Iranon
#! Junkie
Registered: 2012-03-10
Posts: 254

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

And this is a problem, why?


LEGO won't be ready for the average user until it comes pre-assembled, in a single  unified look, and glued together so it doesn't come apart.

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#18 2012-12-10 16:26:07

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

In other news, it didn't take Microsoft too long to go full retard: http://www.youtube.com/windowsphone7

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#19 2012-12-10 16:45:53

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

In other news, this topic has very little value if it continues to label and slam just for the sake of doing so.  Any time a religious like argument takes off, people seem to lose their minds.

Tone it down or this thread will be closed.


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#20 2012-12-10 16:56:33

junkie
#! Junkie
Registered: 2012-05-04
Posts: 369

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

^ yes, lighten up yall

And Mr. El_k, I believe,  was more so trying to make light fun of idiotic marketing lingo than full blown Apple flaming. Which, is pretty damn funny.

el_koraco wrote:

In other news, it didn't take Microsoft too long to go full retard: http://www.youtube.com/windowsphone7

See, even Santa has a sweatshop. Bastard!

Last edited by junkie (2012-12-10 16:58:15)

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#21 2012-12-10 17:20:14

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,923

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

"More toys!"


The other day I told this female programmer that she was an instantiation of the Goddess class and that I admired her attributes. I thought she'd take this as a compliment but she just complained that I was treating her as an object.

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#22 2012-12-10 17:39:00

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

junkie wrote:

And Mr. El_k, I believe,  was more so trying to make light fun of idiotic marketing lingo than full blown Apple flaming. Which, is pretty damn funny.

Yeah, but then I went on and said and was a preposition, which is highly facepalmy. Putting that one aside, there is a reason why most teachers forbid starting sentences with conjunctions. Unless you're very proficient in a language, you're gonna form stupid sentences. And since few people have as firm a grasp on the written word as Nabokov and gang...

In this appleized tech marketing lingo, readers are treated like idiots. Like, here you are, your attention span is so short, we can't even trust you to read anything other than a simple sentence, so we'll break it up in the most annoying way. Mind you, economic use of language is important. Since we're mentioning writers, Raymond Carver, aside from being awesome, pretty much built his career on stripping away all the cruft from his sentences. I prefer the "KISS" approach to writing myself, but not shoved down my throat by some bullshit copywriting convention, no thanks.

Last edited by el_koraco (2012-12-10 17:39:41)

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#23 2012-12-10 17:41:45

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

nore wrote:

Why not make it even better with extra splitting and capitalizing:

And. You can HOLD it. In ONE hand.

Now say that with your best James Earl Jones bass.

Why stop there, you can just as easily myspace it: 

AnD. You cAn HoLd. iT. IN oNe hANd.

Edit: smile))):Ppp!!11!

Last edited by el_koraco (2012-12-10 17:42:29)

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#24 2012-12-10 18:43:38

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

el_koraco wrote:

In this appleized tech marketing lingo, readers are treated like idiots. Like, here you are, your attention span is so short, we can't even trust you to read anything other than a simple sentence, so we'll break it up in the most annoying way.

Many years ago I was part of a study that was evaluating the attention span of a typical Internet user and what to expect in time terms how long you had to 'grab and hold' that user to a web page.  This was before the Internet as we know it now..

It was determined then that you had at a maximum of 1.8 seconds to grab the user's attention with a gif, gimmick, statement or a naked image if you wanted that user to wait and see your page.

This was the mind set before High Speed Internet and before a hand held of any kind...

What do you think it would be now?  The readers have always been viewed as idiots as you stated El_K, some things just never change.

Marketing has and will always be like lawyers... There is way too many and the first thing we need to do is....  wink


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#25 2012-12-10 19:20:28

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,276

Re: Apple's single greatest crime

el_koraco wrote:

Well, since I had a brain freeze and declared conjunctions to be prepositions, I will go lick my wounds somewhere.

I'm glad you caught the mistake, as I was about to call you out on it. wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50OXJ5AT3ms


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