Doing Something about the Wiki

johnraff · 2012-04-26 17:00:09

There seems to be general agreement that the Crunchbang Wiki could be better in some ways, especially when compared with the Debian or Arch wikis; the topic has come up numerous times over the last couple of years, and just petered out... This post is an attempt to take a step back, add another layer of abstraction, and think a little about how a plan of action could be arrived at. This may be my personal preference coming in, but I'd like to support an open, transparent process without decisions being made in private by elite groups. Like all wikis, this is a community creation for which we are all responsible. Of course, eventually some decisions will have to be made, somehow, and maybe a decision on what kind of process will lead to those decisions... Well of course the buck has to stop somewhere, so, how about suggesting that an attempt be made to reach a consensus among those who care enough to participate in this discussion?

I have a couple of concrete suggestions on this and that, but plan to save tham for a later post, and make this first one a sort of meta-post for the thread, sketching out what the discussion is about. I will update it to reflect ideas that other people add, so that new arrivals at the thread can get a rough idea of the current state of the discussion here. These are the categories I would imagine ideas being listed under:

Problems
What specific issues are there for wiki users?

CONTENT
* Many entries are based on the Ubuntu Jaunty Crunchbang, and now contain outdated information.
* There is nowhere to discuss the content of a wiki page.

ORGANISATION
* in general, indexing/categorization is in dire need of improvement
* multi languages mixed up together
* articles with similar-sounding names
* alphabetical index is confusing

Changes
What should be done?

* 1st step: move outdated material to an "archive" section
* reorganize the index
* reduce pages with similar or overlapping content

Methods
How to bring about the needed changes?

1) Make an "Editor's Guide" page in the wiki, ask those interested to look and edit it if necessary.
2) Add a note to the wiki front page explaining what's going on.
3) Call for all those interested to mark wiki entries according to the guide, so they can be dealt with at the next stage.
4) Merge pages with similar content.
5) Add new pages which are obviously needed.

Volunteers
Everyone is most welcome to join in this process, and contribute as much, or little, time as they wish.

Present state of discussion and work
Ideas are still coming in.
Steps 1, 2 & 3 listed above now done.
4 & 5 now being worked on.
Wiki Editors' Guide
Wiki posts have been marked. Thank you everyone!
What to do about pages that should be merged with another page?

My apologies to all the people who've already posted their thoughts on this elsewhere, and volunteered to help. Circumstances change, so I hope you don't mind joining in here, and possibly posting the same content again, so that we can get everything in one place as far as possible. Respect also to the many people who have contributed time and effort into the current wiki - I'm certainly not about to suggest throwing all your work away!

If you think we could organize this work differently, by all means post your suggestions. Otherwise, for the moment I will add peoples' ideas to the above lists as they come in.
To start with, focus on the "problems"?

Last edited by johnraff (2012-06-11 15:54:24)

lain · 2012-04-26 17:12:52

Well, CrunchBang is basically Debian and this is why I don't think that it needs a large wiki of any kind. The only thing I could imagine to put in there are tint2/Openbox related things. For everything else I would just link to the arch/debian wiki. You don't have to do all the work again if someone else did it already (This is - partially - what Open Source is about)

johnraff · 2012-04-26 17:16:27

^agreed - we should try not to reduplicate stuff. There might be a bit more than just tint2 and openbox though. (The Arch wiki covers openbox quite well too.)

Archiving off all the obsolete stuff is another task.

Last edited by johnraff (2012-04-26 17:21:18)

TitanMech · 2012-04-26 17:20:24

My first problem comes from being dyslexic, as i scroll down the wiki, i see items that when i stop and take a second look appear to be in french and a variety of other languages.

maybe on the wiki's home page there could be a french flag which took uses to a list of only articles with french titles and or written in french and the same for English, Maybe the words "articles in <img src="french_flag.png" alt="Articles in french" height="42" width="42" /> would be appropriate

Secondly there are articles labelled "HOWTO-graphics drivers", and then slightly further down there is "Install latest nvidia drivers" - there is no way of telling from looking at the title which is the newer article, or if it would even apply to me.

The suggestion would be to have a graphics mega thread whereby the user reads a set of questions, so for example if they first find out what hardware is in their box, and have nvidia, they click a link called NVIDIA_HOWTO, and vice versa for ATI.

corenominal · 2012-04-26 21:10:26

lain wrote:

Well, CrunchBang is basically Debian and this is why I don't think that it needs a large wiki of any kind. The only thing I could imagine to put in there are tint2/Openbox related things. For everything else I would just link to the arch/debian wiki. You don't have to do all the work again if someone else did it already (This is - partially - what Open Source is about)

Agreed smile

el_koraco · 2012-04-26 21:28:57

I'd leave the ssh, rtorrent and mutt tutorials in any case. Probably among the best on the web. We have the forum (dr Xaos mostly) for the rest of the stuff.

johnraff · 2012-04-27 16:42:17

I don't think we should actually remove anything at all at this point. Maybe start by just marking the obsolete Ubuntu Jaunty based articles, so people know the info is maybe out of date. Perhaps later on they could be moved to some kind of "archive" vault.

For all the problems, there is some very useful stuff up there.

machinebacon · 2012-04-27 22:07:57

Hello everyone.

Thank you John for opening this thread.

I agree, firstly we should clean up the pre-Debian stuff. Even though things are compatible, they should be in a pool, a kind of archive, from which it is easier to select stuff that definitely works on the newest #! version. Adding an [Ubuntu] tag in front of the title or something like this would be the best.

Secondly, the overview has a number of 'duplicates' (for example, howto-pages) which IMO make browsing a bit chaotic, so it would be nice to merge howto's of the same kind into one, calling these Method 1, Method 2, etc. and linking them to translations. I'd like to see the overview page structured in different categories (graphics, sound, network, desktop, applications, package management, printers, howtos)and not in alphabetical order.

If there need to be new entries added is basically one of the last decisions or actions to take. I would prefer a troubleshooting guide especially for the stepchildren wireless, alsa and ATI/nVidia/Optimus. If we take a look at the support forums, these account for at least half (or more?) of the reoccuring problems, and they mostly boil down to the same thing.

John, I vote for you coordinating the work on the wiki, if you don't mind - which step should be taken first. Of course you can count on me whatever needs to be done. big_smile If we sort out the Ubuntu stuff, things will look a bit clearer, I guess.

johnraff · 2012-04-28 17:40:03

OK why not start with what looks easiest/most obvious and take on the other stuff later?

I don't mind trying to sketch out a sort of framework in which everybody would be able to put in as much/little as they felt like, and everybody's contributions would add up, hopefully in a positive way. smile However, other people, in other threads, have already volunteered to take on some of this work, and I don't want them to feel I'm barging in trying to take over anything. Whatever, let's tackle this in as open and co-operative way as possible.

So, if we take the existence of a lot of possibly obsolete material as the first problem we could tackle, we need a common system of marking wiki pages so that everybody's input will fit in, without the need for a few people to be stuck with mountains of work. Everyone interested should be able to contribute. So, how about setting out some kind of Manual for Wiki Editors? Would this be better posted on this thread, or as another wiki page, where anybody could edit it?

To start off, I would suggest this be put in:
* Follow the doctor's principle: [First, do no harm]. ie don't delete anything!
* When you find a wiki page which seems to be obsolete, decide which category it fits in:
1) Can be fixed with a little editing.
2) Has so much outdated material that it would be easier to write a new page from scratch.
Then mark the title (so it can be seen without opening the page) with either [NEEDS EDITING] or [OBSOLETE]. In either case add a question mark ( [OBSOLETE?] ) if you'd like a second opinion. Also add a comment at the top of the page "This page contains some possibly out of date material" or "The information on this page is probably out of date".
* If you have the time and the ability, by all means update the information in the page, but DO NOT DELETE ANYTHING. Only add a comment to indicate innaccurate info.

I'm sure there are other guidelines that should go in, so please post your suggestions. Also, where is the best place to post such a guide - in this thread, in a new thread or in the wiki?

rhowaldt · 2012-04-28 17:53:19

johnraff wrote:

However, other people, in other threads, have already volunteered to take on some of this work, and I don't want them to feel I'm barging in trying to take over anything. Whatever, let's tackle this in as open and co-operative way as possible.

i wouldn't worry about that. in the end, it comes down to whoever starts the work, i think. in this case, you put forward a proposal, which is great. let's consider that the start of this undertaking. i'm sure anyone with an interest in helping has seen this thread, or will see it soon enough.

i think your suggestions are just perfect. the only thing i thought might also be a good idea is to add a line to the wiki frontpage, saying something like 'the wiki is currently under development', so visitors know we're working on it.

i think it is good to have a guide on the wiki itself, simply because anyone can edit it to add more stuff. that's the one advantage of the wiki over the forums imo. if we keep it on the forums, you'd keep updating your thread with every suggestion, which kinda sucks, i think, when compared to doing it through the wiki.

rhowaldt · 2012-04-28 19:50:03

looking over the wiki now, and agree with Titanmech that we should definitely split up the parts in different languages. i think this would mean that the frontpage should no longer hold the full alphabetical index, but should instead hold a link to that particular index. also, that index might be worth splitting out into languages as well. no idea how to go about this though, never really edited a wiki before smile

also, am i right that this wiki does not have a 'discussion' thingy for a page, like they have on, for example, Wikipedia?

johnraff · 2012-05-01 16:30:22

A couple more suggestions to add to the guide:

* A category [OK] to put in the title of entries that look ... OK. This way we can see how the work is progressing, and eventually all, or most, entries will be classified one way or another. Then we can move to the next step of dealing with them. Again, an [OK?] mark would imply a request for someone else to check.
So all marks would be:
[OK] [OK?]
[NEEDS EDITING] [NEEDS EDITING?]
[OBSOLETE] [OBSOLETE?]

* A request to add your forum username to the comment at the top of the page, in case someone needs to discuss a decision with you.

@rhowaldt Yes, a brief explanation on the wiki front page to describe what's going on, explain the title markings and also to appeal for help with the work, sounds like a good idea.

Also agree with your suggestion to put the Editor's Guide on the wiki instead of on the forums.

I was also wondering about the lack of a wikipedia-type "discussion" page. For example, how about if every wiki page was associated with a forum thread for discussions? On that topic, maybe at some point in the future it would be worth thinking about getting the distilled content of some of the important forum HOWTOs into the wiki.

rhowaldt · 2012-05-01 21:44:16

^ good ideas all around. a link to a forum-thread for discussion would be a good alternative right now. but where do we leave those threads? do we call for a new subforum?

machinebacon · 2012-05-01 21:54:25

Yes, a subforum would be great- everything else would be confusing. It can be closed when not needed anyway.

johnraff · 2012-05-02 05:24:47

There has also been a suggestion to split the HOWTOs away from the Tips, Tricks & Scripts subforum. At some point in the future many of the how-tos might have associated wiki pages, so that subforum could be a place for wiki page discussions too. I would have thought there'd always be a need of somewhere to discuss the content of wiki pages, unless the new wiki framework will support that anyway.

small guide tweak:
[OBSOLETE] > [OUTDATED]
(bit more diplomatic)

I've edited the top post to reflect the current state of things.

Last edited by johnraff (2012-05-02 05:45:02)

typeZERO · 2012-05-03 19:10:00

Being new to Crunchbang, and also new to Linux, the only problem I have had with the wiki is that things are hard to find. After stumbling onto a good page I need to bookmark it if I want any certain way to find it again. So I think that it just needs better organization, perhaps categorizing things.

Is the wiki going to move over to the new domain? If so, why not start a new wiki there, keep the old one as an archive, and start from scratch which could use a new system if necessary,

machinebacon · 2012-05-03 19:12:31

^ This will be decided by corenominal, I guess.

About the structure: I fully agree and hope to see a categorization. Right now the Quick Reference is better organized (http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic … r-statler/) than the wiki.

johnraff · 2012-05-05 04:50:17

OK I've put up something here:
http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/wiki_editors_guide

Is it a bit verbose? Any other points that should be added/changed?
If it looks OK I'll add a comment and a link from the wiki front page.

(Looking at some wiki pages, I see that VastOne, for example, has been quietly at work improving content with no fanfare...)

machinebacon · 2012-05-05 05:41:54

Thank you John for the guide, so far so good smile

I'll go through the German entries as first, maybe somebody who speaks a foreign language can go through the Spanish/Italian/French/... wiki pages?

Edit: All those entries which I tag (except [OK]) will have my comments at the very end of the page. I hope it is OK like this?

Last edited by machinebacon (2012-05-05 05:58:12)

rhowaldt · 2012-05-05 12:09:01

@jonhraff: that guide looks great. i'll have a look at what i can fix on the wiki.
and it seems VastOne is always quietly editing stuff smile

rhowaldt · 2012-05-05 12:36:52

so, what do i do with pages that don't seem to have a title? for example, this page: http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/howto/fix_lenovo_volume , which is quite obsolete as it seems to me you can already access that info through this general page: http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/configuring_keybindings

what to do with it?

machinebacon · 2012-05-05 12:40:27

Can we agree that we fix dead links as soon as we see them? Would change some [OK?] to [OK] smile

machinebacon · 2012-05-05 12:42:48

rhowaldt wrote:

so, what do i do with pages that don't seem to have a title? for example, this page: http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/howto/fix_lenovo_volume , which is quite obsolete as it seems to me you can already access that info through this general page: http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/configuring_keybindings
what to do with it?

I would mark it as [NEEDS EDITING] - the content of other similar pages can be linked.

Edit: Sorry, my bullshit. I would [OK/NEEDS EDITING?] it, to be honest. amixer is still a valid application, and the method described works for many computers. The title is maybe picked wrong, better would be "HOW-TO Make media keys on laptops work" or so.

Last edited by machinebacon (2012-05-05 12:46:08)

Milozzy · 2012-05-05 12:50:41

Wonderful ideas here...I would be honored to help you guys in any way possible.
As Italian, I could help with pizza translations too.

machinebacon · 2012-05-05 12:52:42

^ Milano, sign up and do it big_smile

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