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#251 2013-11-10 01:26:43

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

iMBeCil wrote:

Why ew and lcafreio are hitting each other publicly? For havens sake, guys, please deal with it like men: via PM.
(Or is it some kind of social an experiment, here at #! forum?)


Haven`t you heard the news. If I lash out at him in a PM then I get banned. Much more difficult to do it in broad daylight big_smile

Some kind of social experiment? Well, perhaps. I want to raise the roof a little, and what better way to do it than to stretch the limit as fas as I can. But to be serious for a while. This isn`t a community-driven project. It`s a one-man project. It`s his distro and our suggestions and feedback may or may not be considered, and that`s fine. Actually, with so many that just want to leave things as they are, it`s probably a good thing that we aren`t community-driven.

But it isn`t fine that the mods jumps right in the face off anyone that provides feedback and suggestion that they don`t like. In the instant you mention that #! is stale and boring, and suggest changes that might make it more exciting, then you immidately get told to leave elsewhere if you ain`t happy. That kind of mentality is very dangerous. The only people that will be left is those that are quite content and comfortable with how things are, and there is no distro or community that survives in the long run without constant change and evolvement. It also has to happen in a much faster pace today, than just 5-10 years ago.

As I see it, Crunchbang is in the danger of getting in the stagnation-phase now, or actually already showing signs of being there. The only thing that can counteract such a negative trend, is CHANGE. Nothing could hurt Crunchbang more, than preserving it as it is. It`s not me who want`s bad things for Crunchbang. It`s those who are content, comfortable and not at all impatient to see any new development, whether it is in the distro itself, or in the community.

But now I`ll shut up. If few listened, and the few thought that I was just talking nonsense and nothing changes, I still said what I said, and wikipedia will some day tell us all how it turned out : 8)


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#252 2013-11-10 01:42:47

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

@ew

See, when you put it like that it sounds quite reasonable - no need to get personal at all wink

I personally don't want an "exciting" distro - I want one which is stable, does what I want and is easily configurable. I get all the excitement I want with Testing! If that is "stagnation" then so be it.

I think the mods do a good job of keeping this place in line and helping with its reputation of being a friendly forum. Inevitably that means that some toes get stepped on, and you are right that there is sometimes an impression of bullying, but the mods are volunteers and I am grateful for their time and (mostly) good-natured control. I don't know what passes privately so I can't comment on that.

Now we have your feedback on their Moderation, how about you start a thread along the lines of "How to make Crunchbang exciting?", and we can have a good go at that, rather than at each other?


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#253 2013-11-10 01:51:40

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

ew wrote:

In the instant you mention that #! is stale and boring, and suggest changes that might make it more exciting, then you immidately get told to leave elsewhere if you ain`t happy. That kind of mentality is very dangerous.

Well first you have to consider what the particular change it is you want. Switching user-level applications (file manager, audio player, etc) is easy to do and its often best to just have each person make this decision on their own installs rather than try to satisfy all users simultaneously. Then there are other changes that would drastically alter the identity of CrunchBang such as switching from Openbox to a full DE like KDE or Gnome. Also changing items like the init system would involve more work and users may not notice it much.

ew wrote:

As I see it, Crunchbang is in the danger of getting in the stagnation-phase now, or actually already showing signs of being there. The only thing that can counteract such a negative trend, is CHANGE. Nothing could hurt Crunchbang more, than preserving it as it is.

If you can make a good case for any change, perhaps Corenominal will consider it. Keep in mind that the final decision still rests with him. CrunchBang is Corenominal's personal distro that he has decided to share with us. Depending on the change you want, it may be a lot of work for him or it just may be something that he doesn't care for.

Also most people would likely not want change unless they feel or are convinced that it is beneficial to them. Even if the developers feels a particular change is needed, it doesn't mean the userbase will feel the same (e.g. Windows 8 ).

Last edited by anonymous (2013-11-10 01:52:33)

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#254 2013-11-10 03:47:10

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Again I have to say "what damo said". smile

EDIT:  The longer this thread goes on, the more I see how well this community moderates itself.  I've said it before, but you guys continue to make me so proud! 8o

@ew:  Linuxephus didn't "lash out" at the mods via PM; I believe chillicampari and lcafiero have already covered the salient details regarding that in this thread.  Many users here have had heated exchanges with the moderators via PM, and they're still here.  They might not be as happy with us as they were before - and that is a moderator's burden to bear - but they're still valued, contributing members of the community.  I continue to refuse to publicly discuss PMs, as I would consider that a breach of confidence, but I would encourage any member who has privately come to the mods with such complaints to contact you if they wish.

Last edited by pvsage (2013-11-10 03:50:36)

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#255 2013-11-10 03:49:07

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

damo wrote:

@ew

See, when you put it like that it sounds quite reasonable - no need to get personal at all wink

I personally don't want an "exciting" distro - I want one which is stable, does what I want and is easily configurable. I get all the excitement I want with Testing! If that is "stagnation" then so be it.

I think the mods do a good job of keeping this place in line and helping with its reputation of being a friendly forum. Inevitably that means that some toes get stepped on, and you are right that there is sometimes an impression of bullying, but the mods are volunteers and I am grateful for their time and (mostly) good-natured control. I don't know what passes privately so I can't comment on that.

Now we have your feedback on their Moderation, how about you start a thread along the lines of "How to make Crunchbang exciting?", and we can have a good go at that, rather than at each other?

Testing? I`m always at unstable, and that isn`t exciting either. But rumors tells me that there are more issues with testing than unstable, so perhaps I should try it. Just kidding, I have tried that too. But seriously, it`s not a newer kernel or tracking another release I ask for. Those things I can do myself. I ask for a larger selection to choose from, with much more focus on different DE/WM`s and the development of new applications and scripts. Changes, changes and changes. In fast pace. With the community boiling over by people working on these things with enthusiasm and dedication. And that probably means that I should get involved in something that is community-driven.

The structure of Crunchbang can never provide me with the things I want from a distro. But the community could have filled the purpose, if it had been the way it was when I joined it. It wasn`t actually a pure Crunchbang-forum, it was a forum for all kinds of linux-people. But as people have left, the forum has changed, and even if I condone change, it hasn`t changed to the better, and that`s my real issue. Here are no heat, no passion and no excitement about anything. Many of us has run Waldorf for a long time now, and still there are no impatience about a new release at all. That pretty much shows our drive and enthusiasm, doesn`t it?

I even see that many are waiting much longer to get proper support in the support-threads. I was impressed when I joined. I posted a question and 3 minutes later I had the answer. Time after time. Why isn`t it like that now? Well, that`s simply because there simply isn`t enough skilled user hanging here. Very few comes just to answers questions. There has to be some other reasons to be her. So if it`s not entertaining, it will result in poor support in the long run. That`s why the roof should be raised. To attract more people that can answer question, and that way provide faster and better support. Even linux-people wants to be entertained.


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#256 2013-11-10 04:20:53

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

pvsage wrote:

Again I have to say "what damo said". smile

@ew:  Linuxephus didn't "lash out" at the mods via PM; I believe chillicampari and lcafiero have already covered the salient details regarding that in this thread.  Many users here have had heated exchanges with the moderators via PM, and they're still here.  They might not be as happy with us as they were before - and that is a moderator's burden to bear - but they're still valued, contributing members of the community.  I continue to refuse to publicly discuss PMs, as I would consider that a breach of confidence, but I would encourage any member who has privately come to the mods with such complaints to contact you if they wish.

I have been contacted by some who has experienced it, but as you, I don`t reveal stuff from PM`s. So then we are at the same spot. But to be clear, I`m not talking about the Linuxephus-situation in perticular. There are others that have been driven away, and others that simply doesn`t feel that here is room for them. But I guess it has to be like this in a distro where the community has little or no influence on the development of the distro. At first you are learning new things and are satisfied by that. But it doesn`t take long before you master this distro, which also is as it should be, because its supposed to offer the best ootb experience possible. So the nature of this distro, is to be boring. That`s just how it is, and I can`t see why that should provoke anyone. It`s actually a complement because it`s the intentions and purpose of the distro, and how can it be provoking that someone states this fact  in other words.

The old disclaimer is exciting, the pronounced purpose isn`t. Exciting? Oh how I want to say what I really mean, by saying that it`s not even exciting to the ........ Those that have noticed should be able to guess the answer, and those who doesn`t get it are probably excused:)


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#257 2013-11-10 04:47:40

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

"It's not even exciting to the developer."  This is what you're afraid to say, isn't it?  You shouldn't be; I get this impression as well. neutral  We've entered the Stable staleness, when excitement has begun to pick up in Testing and Unstable, and it will most likely be several more months before a Live ISO is available for the next Testing version.  Plus, the developer is reportedly quite busy with his day job lately, so he doesn't have the luxury to hobnob with us as much as he or we would like.

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#258 2013-11-10 08:09:21

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: not where I belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 3,264

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Day job...I thought he left the corporate world to work full time on this distro.


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#259 2013-11-10 08:29:35

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Distros should be boring. Unless it's your hobby to wrestle with them. In the same way that's it rather handy if the walls of your house are stable. So that you can do all kinds of mad craziness inside them without fear that they will collapse on you.

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#260 2013-11-10 08:43:26

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

@ew - I once worked with someone who said if people knew what she did in private they would be shocked. I imagined she was into all kinds of kinky stuff but no, she was simply brought up conservatively and thought that drinking wine at a dinner party was the height of decadence.

The point is maybe CrunchBang was never that dangerous to begin with and Philip was simply being overly cautious.

However, reading between the lines, I think your condition is treatable. I therefore prescribe you one Linuxbbq per week, to be taken via USB and without water.

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#261 2013-11-10 10:06:33

bobobex
The Better Half
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-26
Posts: 1,260

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

KrunchTime wrote:

Day job...I thought he left the corporate world to work full time on this distro.

Unfortunately (and despite what some people believe), working full-time on a distro that generates little or no income does not put food on the table! Philip was able to work solely on the distro for a little while through the generosity of donations, some advertising revenue and by relying on only my wage coming into the house sad

Not only does Philip have a full-time job now, he also has a full-time family and a full-time life and yet he still finds time to continue to tweak and tinker with this distro to make improvements to the users experience.

I personally find some of the comments on here about his lack of commitment/time to the forums, or lack of action on "developing" the distro further quite hurtful and inconsiderate, but then I guess I'm probably being very over-protective of my husband and of his distro.

I see that mod bashing is now the new way for some users to relieve their boredom, and that in itself is one of the reasons that you don't see me around here much anymore. I shall mod quietly in the corner, keeping my thoughts and opinions to myself.


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#262 2013-11-10 12:53:38

Zill
#! CrunchBanger
From: Lincolnshire, UK
Registered: 2009-10-25
Posts: 201

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

bobobex wrote:

...Not only does Philip have a full-time job now, he also has a full-time family and a full-time life and yet he still finds time to continue to tweak and tinker with this distro to make improvements to the users experience.

I personally find some of the comments on here about his lack of commitment/time to the forums, or lack of action on "developing" the distro further quite hurtful and inconsiderate, but then I guess I'm probably being very over-protective of my husband and of his distro....

I quite agree and really am grateful to both you and Philip for sharing #! with us all.

I have followed this thread with some dismay having seen how some users seem to regard stability as a negative attribute.

IMHO, most users simply want a computer to do the tasks required in a reliable and efficient way, day in, day out.  Thanks to Philip's considerable efforts, #! meets these requirements admirably and I have found it to be a great, very reliable, workhorse.

It seems that some other users may not really need a reliable system and so just want to tinker with things until they break them.  While some distros may cater for these users, I suggest that #! Waldorf is not really the best home for them.  Having said that, all users are welcome here - let's just keep things friendly though and show some appreciation for all the (thankless) work the mods do.

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#263 2013-11-10 13:18:15

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

pvsage wrote:

"It's not even exciting to the developer."  This is what you're afraid to say, isn't it?  You shouldn't be; I get this impression as well. neutral  We've entered the Stable staleness, when excitement has begun to pick up in Testing and Unstable, and it will most likely be several more months before a Live ISO is available for the next Testing version.  Plus, the developer is reportedly quite busy with his day job lately, so he doesn't have the luxury to hobnob with us as much as he or we would like.

Then we don`t disagree as much as I have thought, and this feeling has been bothering me more and more. In the time I have been a member here, nothing has happened except Waldorf going stable. No new releases, no new scripts, no new apps, and nothing new in the waldorf-repo at all. Even the waldorf-theme is still outdated and incompatible with gtk 3-8, and we almost never hear from the developer.

When I joined, I was sceptical to join a one-man distro, but it was said that he was working full time on this project. If the intention has changed to do this all alone on his spare time,  then I`m almost certain that the structure needs to change.

But boiled down to this, that`s why I say that only the content ones will be happy here, because I can`t see much development in the future. If it`s caused by a developer loosing his motivation for the project, or he simply hasn`t got the time, is kind of irrelevant. The outcome is the same, and that`s what counts in the real world.

So I don`t doubt that he`s busy, and I don`t disagree in him having a full life with his family and other things. It`s the way it should be. But then it`s only natural that we also will start loosing interest. We are also squeezed for time just like him, and the users will not be any more dedicated to a distro than the creator, developer and owner is himself. Regardless what his/her reasons is.

I feel awful saying this, as it`s a wonderful distro from a very clever developer,and I wish him and his family all the best. Together with all the other users in Crunchbang. This is not me being sarcastic. I really mean it, but I also mean that the structure needs to change if this distro is supposed to still be running strong in the future.


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#264 2013-11-10 13:30:36

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

intoCB wrote:

@ew - I once worked with someone who said if people knew what she did in private they would be shocked. I imagined she was into all kinds of kinky stuff but no, she was simply brought up conservatively and thought that drinking wine at a dinner party was the height of decadence.

The point is maybe CrunchBang was never that dangerous to begin with and Philip was simply being overly cautious.

However, reading between the lines, I think your condition is treatable. I therefore prescribe you one Linuxbbq per week, to be taken via USB and without water.

'

I agree. That`s a prescription that solves it. And  I`m  about to do it. But I dropped by another distro first, and I really like it, so I`ve been stuck tweaking things there. It`s a keeper, so I will share my interest there with your prescription, and probably also my own lb to start with. That should be enough to keep me more than occupied. I just haven`t gotten around to really do it yet. I`ve had way to much to do, and i want to be able to dedicate me when I first do it. I have a few projects IRL that needs to be finished first. I only have a few hours at night-time. That`s it. But that will change real soon.


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#265 2013-11-10 13:33:11

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

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#266 2013-11-10 13:36:22

kbmonkey
#! Die Hard
From: South Africa
Registered: 2011-01-14
Posts: 879
Website

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I am reading this thread because the title reads "How we moderate your forum", not "Prolix paragraphs and how we can't deal with our feelings."

I vote this thread be closed if it keeps going on this track.

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#267 2013-11-10 13:40:14

g33zr
#! Die Hard
From: Never Never Land
Registered: 2013-02-19
Posts: 635

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I agree with Zill, who wrote above, "It seems that some other users may not really need a reliable system and so just want to tinker with things until they break them.  While some distros may cater for these users, I suggest that #! Waldorf is not really the best home for them.  Having said that, all users are welcome here - let's just keep things friendly though and show some appreciation for all the (thankless) work the mods do."

If certain users find #! lacking in excitement and thus boring, why not use Arch, Siduction, Vsido, among other more "exciting" distros. I can't speak for the others here, but I use #! precisely because it's STABLE, not to mention delightfully lean and fast. I don't need the latest and greatest 3.10 or 3.11 kernel or the latest vesion of "name-that-app."

Like the Debian devs do, Philip can take his time with updating and release the next stable version of #! when he deems it ready. That's good enough for me.  big_smile


It's never too late to learn something new! wink

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#268 2013-11-10 13:47:50

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2012-03-22
Posts: 1,026
Website

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

ew wrote:

... nothing has happened except Waldorf going stable. No new releases, no new scripts, no new apps, and nothing new in the waldorf-repo at all. Even the waldorf-theme is still outdated and incompatible with gtk 3-8, and we almost never hear from the developer.

So, ew, you are actually in need of ENTERTAINMENT. (I use the 'E' word on purpose.) Well, I am sure corenominal will ENTERTAIN you if you pay him enough ...

As for myself, I am here to learn stuff about linux. When I'm bored, I get one of BBQ spins, install it and try to customize it to my liking. (Or go out and get drunk with my IRL friends.) At the point when I think I have most of the knowledge required, I will perhaps build my own distro for myself. Or maybe not. But I will not go around and whine that I am bored, and expect or try to force other people to change to entertain me. And when I say 'whining' I mean 'repeatedly whining for a long time without actually doing anything'. But that's only me ...


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#269 2013-11-10 13:48:02

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

After reading ew's latest post or two, I think I understand what he is concerned about. Its not necessarily that CrunchBang is boring but rather that it may die. Sure new versions of Debian Stable are released roughly every 24 months, but what happens to #! if Corenominal has no time for it or otherwise loses interest? It would be a sad day when/if #! meets the same fate as SolusOS for example.

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#270 2013-11-10 13:53:50

iMBeCil
WAAAT?
From: Edrychwch o'ch cwmpas
Registered: 2012-03-22
Posts: 1,026
Website

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

^ I'm sure that there is enough power users here who are able to continue #! if they would wish so ... Just one word: LinuxBBQ  big_smile

Last edited by iMBeCil (2013-11-10 13:54:08)


Postpone all your duties; if you die, you won't have to do them ..
--> The very new BL forum! <--

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#271 2013-11-10 18:23:01

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,108

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

This is not a community!

Please file under 'Feedback'.

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#272 2013-11-10 18:30:16

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Beg to differ, dura. So does the dictionary:

com mu ni ty (noun; plural, communities): 3. a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the): the business community; the community of scholars, the CrunchBang community.

I think that covers us.


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#273 2013-11-10 18:37:26

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,108

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Larry wrote:

Beg to differ, dura. So does the dictionary:
com mu ni ty (noun; plural, communities): 3. a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the): the business community; the community of scholars, the CrunchBang community.
I think that covers us.

Think you've contradicted yourself by arguing against me. If we were a community then me and you would not disagree, by your own definition. You would not try to argue your case to be correct - but, instead, as a moderator with the widest interests of the community as your motivation, enable space for multiplicity within the community. Earlier in this thread you define it as being at odds with ew's interests: he perceives entertainment, as I and others do, to be part of this community and its interests. Yet you do not. So we share different interests that appear to fragment what you like to call a community. Hence I believe the assumption that this dark space of the web with transient members is a community to be false.

There is no visible evidence that CrunchBang constitutes a community, but the discourse is great marketing spiel.

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#274 2013-11-10 18:40:46

anonymous
The Mystery Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

I would say just because all people of a community do not agree on all things equally does not negate the existence of said community.

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#275 2013-11-10 18:41:36

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,108

Re: How we moderate your forum - feedback encouraged

Funny the paradox that as CrunchBang becomes more popular (at least defined by DistroWatch standards) what it markets itself so much on (unique community) begins to appear ever more homogenous with other Linux 'communities'.

Are the moderators aware that Crunchbang is known throughout Linux land as providing a community that transcends interest in only functional concerns?

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