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#126 2015-02-10 08:03:12

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: The Beginning.

^^yeh I think when pvsage for example talks about using lxde, he's using that as an example of something that's already working, so it can be taken apart to help see how something like Waldorf might be made on Jessie. Last week I installed xfce-jessie with the same pupose. Ultimately, it will come down to building up from zero and adding the needed apps, to keep things as clean as possible.

pvsage wrote:

I'm starting to think bare Openbox might be the best way to go


John
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( a boring Japan blog , Japan Links, idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#127 2015-02-10 08:07:35

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,148
Website

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

I'm starting to think bare Openbox might be the best way to go - login to bare Openbox, purge lxde, lxde-*, and task-lxde-desktop, then log back in again.  If it takes lxsession along with it - and I'm pretty sure it will - then that's a pity, because it really is convenient to have that "color picker thingy" for gtk2 applications, but lighter is better, and like I said, it doesn't affect gtk3 applications.

Still, #! uses lxappearance outside its native lxde to good effect; lxsession used to be a bit buggy but that was a long time ago and now it might turn out to be worth a look. Unless it's changed a lot, it's very configurable and potentially useful for starting things other than lxde.

Last edited by johnraff (2015-02-10 08:24:29)


John
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#! forum moderator    BunsenLabs

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#128 2015-02-10 08:13:34

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

Lxappearance is used as standalone in many light weight WM based distros. It's not perfect but it does a good job taking care of the theming. This seems to tell that there are not many other options available to deal with this if not using a DE.

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#129 2015-02-10 08:23:44

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: The Beginning.

Corenominal requests that we do not use the name. At the same time he also believes our interests are best served by running vanilla Debian.

We could copy #!, update it to Jessie, and stick a new name on it. If we wanted. Personally I think Debian and us have more to gain these days if we run Debian. Debian is very cute and fluffy nowadays and although there are always a few slight adjustments to make, it's now possible to go from download to something like Linux Mint/Ubuntu in an hour (with a netinstall).

People only sentimentally attached to CrunchBang should mourn, get over it, and move on to Debian, IMHO.
However, it is for the people who have a practical need for #! that a successor is needed. Those people's needs should be prioritised.

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#130 2015-02-10 08:30:54

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

johnraff wrote:

Still, #! used lxappearance outside its native lxde to good effect; lxsession used to be a bit buggy but that was a long time ago and now it might turn out to be worth a look. Unless it's changed a lot, it's very configurable and potentially useful for starting things other than lxde.

LXAppearance is definitely a go-to gtk theme selector, especially in Openbox, and is quite useful outside of LXDE.  The only "problem"--and it really isn't much of one--is that this part only works with lxsession as session manager:
2015_02_10_1423556380_563x440_scrot.jpg
direct link
Not having access to that is certainly not a showstopper. smile
(EDIT:  Incidentally, it looks like LXAppearance now also handles things like windecs too.  There are still some things that are only handled either through OBConf or editing the config files directly...)

I am still curious to see what can built from "brass tacks" using MATE, XFCE, or even KDE as a base, but with the goal of creating something that has a look & feel at least similar to CrunchBang.  It's possible that starting with a different base might result in an equally light, but more easily customized, user environment.  (I've read multiple posts in the screenshots threads that it's possible to build a lightweight and responsive KDE system, for example.)

Last edited by pvsage (2015-02-10 08:34:37)

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#131 2015-02-10 08:50:54

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

Hmmm... I saw it (the color part) working in certain distro without LXDE. Let me check.

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#132 2015-02-10 08:57:05

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

Yep. Antix has the option with a tickbox to enable or disable it. I'll check how they manage to make it work.

PS, Salix has the option too. Going to explore the guts.

Last edited by Snap (2015-02-10 09:00:05)

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#133 2015-02-10 09:06:21

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

The only lxde packages installed in those distros are:

antiX: Lxappearance & lxmenudata
Salix: Lxappearance, menu-cache & lxterminal

It seems there is a way leaving lxsession away.

Last edited by Snap (2015-02-10 09:06:45)

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#134 2015-02-10 09:36:59

freistil
#! Member
Registered: 2014-12-16
Posts: 66

Re: The Beginning.

Why not considering something else than GTK? I'm not too experienced on that right now, but what about alternatives?

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#135 2015-02-10 09:40:16

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

Most X11 applications are built against either the gtk2 or gtk+ toolkit.  (Toolkits are what tell X how to draw various visual elements of the user interface, such as buttons and text boxes.)  If we choose something else like Qt, that would severely limit our choices.

Last edited by pvsage (2015-02-10 09:42:00)

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#136 2015-02-10 09:42:31

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

Something like Qt? That will change the whole picture. Making a GTK free distro is not easy. There are a zillion more apps and GTK packages than Qt. Software options are very limited as for today. I have made a few attempts to achieve it, and believe me. It's not an easy route. And mixing toolkits typically leads to bloat.

Last edited by Snap (2015-02-10 09:43:23)

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#137 2015-02-10 10:04:49

freistil
#! Member
Registered: 2014-12-16
Posts: 66

Re: The Beginning.

Okay, so we have a broader choice with GTK, that makes it obvious to stick with it then (user-friendliness).

We should learn from the problems we had in #! with GTK though - just updating the repos gave problems mostly on the GTK side. How hard would it be to decrease the dependency on a specific GTK-version?

Additionally, don't forget, this is not 2008 anymore - most computers nowadays are able to live very well with a certain amount of additional stuff added, it does not have to be TinyCore or what ever. We can use Lubuntu as a benchmark to reach, that's already pretty low.


From hat I have read, there will be a major change in the Lubuntu-world, since they plan to move to Razor-Qt and the developement is rarely held up. So that might be another chance of growth for us?


PS.: And as I mentioned, we should focus a lot on user-friendliness - It was one of the reasons why #! became so popular (cb-welcome) and why the forum is so helpfull and nice. From the philosophy, we could orientate ourselves a little bit on mint?

What about we set up different versions with a new welcome-script - a developer-version (installs apache, sql, git, vim/emacs, etc), a gaming/multimedia-version (installs codecs, video drivers, steam, etc), a slim version (goes with abiword, gnumeric, etc) etcetc.
We would go with a very blank system from begin on and then have a slightly longer post-installation process.

Technically, instead of a script, we could go with a little application as well. We are in 2015 meanwhile.
But that's just a thought.

The installation itself might be 90% Jessie netinstall and DM/WM, some basic configs etc., could be just around 400-500 MB . That might be feasible and easier to configure.

Last edited by freistil (2015-02-10 10:23:59)

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#138 2015-02-10 10:15:24

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

^ Jessie LXDE is a slightly higher benchmark, and a good starting point.

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#139 2015-02-10 11:18:46

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

From hat I have read, there will be a major change in the Lubuntu-world, since they plan to move to Razor-Qt and the developement is rarely held up. So that might be another chance of growth for us?

It depends on what they do. LXDE merged with Razor-Qt. so they're not exactly targeting Razor, but the new LXQt. I wonder what they would do. All the distros I've seen offering LXQt and even Razor had plenty of GTK stuff in, while LXQt, as the name states, it's fully targeted to the Qt toolkit. A real challenge IMHO. I really doubt they leave the GTK toolkit aside, which in certain way it makes of it a bit of a failure. If you want a full Qt DE you cannot avoid grabbing KDE apps and their libraries and dependencies. So going lightweight and simple is almost  a dream.

As pvsage said, the "old" LXDE is a better reference. Even a stripped down Xfce makes a better reference than Razor or LXQt for the target we are aiming at.

Last edited by Snap (2015-02-10 11:20:17)

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#140 2015-02-10 11:26:26

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

About Lxappearance this seems to be the key.

Disabled setting of custom colors if run without lxsession. Unfortunately colors setting will not work without XSETTINGS daemon because any custom settings in .gtkrc-2.0 file will be overridden by the theme. Therefore neither .gtkrc-2.0 nor settings.ini files are used to save gtk-color-scheme anymore because it is useless, and setting of custom colors without lxsession is disabled, showing appropriate warning at that tab.

How to get the Xsettings daemon running without lxsession.

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#141 2015-02-10 11:31:58

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,434

Re: The Beginning.

Snap wrote:

About Lxappearance this seems to be the key.

Disabled setting of custom colors if run without lxsession. Unfortunately colors setting will not work without XSETTINGS daemon because any custom settings in .gtkrc-2.0 file will be overridden by the theme. Therefore neither .gtkrc-2.0 nor settings.ini files are used to save gtk-color-scheme anymore because it is useless, and setting of custom colors without lxsession is disabled, showing appropriate warning at that tab.

How to get the Xsettings daemon running without lxsession.

Download source: xsettingsd

Install and configure


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#142 2015-02-10 11:33:03

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

@Snap:  Perhaps the version of LXAppearance in Antix is built against using xsettingsd instead of lxsession?  That would require rebuilding from source, which I think is something we want to avoid.  Aside from the odd config file or script, this should include naught but what is available in Debian.

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#143 2015-02-10 11:34:07

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

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#144 2015-02-10 11:40:11

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

pvsage wrote:

@Snap:  Perhaps the version of LXAppearance in Antix is built against using xsettingsd instead of lxsession?  That would require rebuilding from source, which I think is something we want to avoid.  Aside from the odd config file or script, this should include naught but what is available in Debian.

Yep, building from source it's probably not the best option if we want to strictly stick to what Debian offers. Anyway, Crunchbang uses a GIT version of compton if I'm not wrong. Maybe some slight deviation is not that bad. Though it will demand package maintenance. For Debian Stable, not exactly rolling for two years or so, it's not too drastic. But it depends on what we want to achieve.

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#145 2015-02-10 11:47:38

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

I'm not willing to sign on to anything that requires a separate repository.  Vanilla Debian + install scripts + a config file here or there, no more.  If we start talking about anything beyond what can be handled with a very small shell script and a .tar.gz file, I'm out.

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#146 2015-02-10 12:11:50

vic
#! by Default
From: /grill
Registered: 2009-02-13
Posts: 3,361

Re: The Beginning.

Yes, keep it simple.


Time to move on!#

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#147 2015-02-10 12:13:53

Snap
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2013-10-22
Posts: 567

Re: The Beginning.

xsettingsd is currently in the Jessie repos

$ apt show xsettingsd
Package: xsettingsd
New: yes
State: not installed
Version: 0.0.20121210+72+g474f18a-1
Priority: optional
Section: x11
Maintainer: David Bremner <bremner@debian.org>
Architecture: amd64
Uncompressed Size: 91.1 k
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.15), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libstdc++6 (>= 4.1.1), libx11-6
Conflicts: xsettingsd
Description: Provides settings to X11 applications
 
Homepage: http://code.google.com/p/xsettingsd/

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#148 2015-02-10 12:20:28

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,970

Re: The Beginning.

^ This is true.  However, LXAppearance in Debian is built to require lxsession for that functionality.

Anyway, as I said, not having that functionality is not a deal breaker.

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#149 2015-02-10 12:40:36

Zill
#! CrunchBanger
From: Lincolnshire, UK
Registered: 2009-10-25
Posts: 201

Re: The Beginning.

freistil wrote:

Additionally, don't forget, this is not 2008 anymore - most computers nowadays are able to live very well with a certain amount of additional stuff added, it does not have to be TinyCore or what ever...

It may not be 2008 anymore but many of us are still using older machines.  For example, my IBM Netvista 6339 dates back to 2001 and is still a very reliable workhorse!

One of the great virtues of CrunchBang is that it works well with older and/or low-spec machines and I do believe we should try to retain this attribute amongst a sea of blingy distros that have ever-higher hardware requirements.

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#150 2015-02-10 12:59:33

Graybyrd
Member
Registered: 2012-04-01
Posts: 28

Re: The Beginning.

I'm just a user, not a coder or developer. As a user I have a deep appreciation for #!. As a one-time Apple systems user in a professional publishing environment, our mission-critical demand was simple: it had to work. That is a high demand, and one that #! meets quite well. I would pray the tradition might continue.

My #! installs have now been switched to a pure 'Wheezy' repo list. So far, rock solid. I pray that continues.

For the FUTURE, I'd hope you development volunteers would respect the solid Debian base, and the elegantly-simple DE, with due attention to detail that makes #! so solid and dependable. Two words in my 75 years of living have proven almost unattainable in most areas: "simple" and "elegant". Look around at most of the Linux distros and very few meet the challenge: simple and elegant, rock solid, and able to "just work."

I tried a live disc of Antix 13.2 "Luddite" for my 32-bit laptop last night. I remember now why Antix is a failure (IMHO): it couldn't recognize my wifi or my peripherals without being led by the nose. For wifi, Antix presented some half-dozen tools to connect, and not one could 'sniff' the card or signal. That's a loser, right out of the box. #! and SolydX recognize it all with no tweaks.

#! just works. It detects everything (just like a Mac! SolydX does, as well). This evening, #! even recognized and mounted a 100mb Iomega disc inserted into a drive on a Pentium III Dell 5000 laptop. My point? Somebody paid a helluva lot of attention to detail, and #! is a "saving distro" for a lot of older hardware, which is a blessing for keeping good stuff out of the dump and in the hands of less-affluent users. If Windows XP is dead; #! is the resurrection.

So whatever you guys decide to build, I'm praying that the fundamental principle of #! will be respected. Please keep in mind: simple and elegant, and it just works! It's a lot harder than one might think.

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