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#26 2014-09-04 14:36:23

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

To be honest, I'm nor sure where I stand. Currently I'm spending a lot of time with RHEL7, where systemd now rules.

I am starting to get a sense that I prefer the init way but maybe systemd is a good thing. However, if it isn't a good thing, what then? Linux has a solid reputation but it's a reputation that was earned in a world of init scripts. Was Linux's role in the growth of the internet down to it being the highest performing technology available or was it because it was free and flexible?

What I do like about systemd is that its name is a clever pun. On the one hand, it follows the UNIX naming convention for a daemon, on the other it suggests via a reference to Roman numerals that is exponentially greater than System V. In Roman numerals, V = 5 and D = 500. So System D would be 100 times better than System V. That's quite clever and I wish I'd thought of it.

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Be excellent to each other!

#27 2014-09-04 15:07:32

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

People know where I sit ... at least at this point.  I am always open to change  ... although at this point, not yet.

"One app to control them all" doesn't sit well with me.  Maybe they should have called it "sauron"
It goes against everything UNIX/Linux has stood for to this date.

intoCB wrote:

In Roman numerals, V = 5 and D = 500. So System D would be 100 times better than System V.

Or 100 times worse - hey, it's an option too!
Or maybe it's meant to include 500 apps!  ]:D


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#28 2014-09-04 17:25:39

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

Here is a rebuttal of the points raised by the boycottsystemd.org site:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/com … te/ch0maow
smile

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#29 2014-09-04 19:15:28

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^ Interesting read, thank you. At least the binary logs are still readable with strings, then. tongue

Linked from that same thread: https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/4W6rrMMvhWU

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-04 19:24:53)

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#30 2014-09-04 20:50:06

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

OK, those links put me on the fence.  meoooow  8o


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#31 2014-09-04 20:58:05

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

If all else fails:

sudo systemctl mask <name of service, target or socket>

You can always turn it off...
big_smile
You don't even have to boot up to do this. Just symlink the service files to /dev/null

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2014-09-04 20:59:45)

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#32 2014-09-04 22:30:55

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

We can do better than that. Let’s mancott it and write our own (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu).

XD  i see what you did there.   XD XD   genius.  nice reference.  ;) ;D


Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Here is a rebuttal of the points raised by the boycottsystemd.org site:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/com … te/ch0maow
:)

there's dontboycotsystemd.org too.

when it's all totted up, i've spent solid weeks worth of looking into it.  the only uncertainty i have now is who is the most laughably unconvincing, the pro systemd cabal, or the "better together" campaign.   ;)

Last edited by Digit (2014-09-04 22:42:39)

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#33 2014-09-06 21:10:29

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

there's dontboycotsystemd.org too.

which says...

Stop talking. Or stop talking and do something. Or just talk and do something. Give a solution or contribute to a solution of your problem.

Omygod, sense on the interwebz  8o

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-06 21:11:08)

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#34 2014-09-07 09:33:19

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

Systemd is dying.

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#35 2014-09-07 10:16:44

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

Systemd is dying.

Already the second result on Google.

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#36 2014-09-07 16:06:06

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

Dying? Oh my! 
@ intoCB -  do you mean as in the links below or do you mean that developers are backing away from it?
@ Alad - what was your search criteria?

Mind you searching for: [Systemd is dying] is an eyeopener - a couple to start:

These are interesting:


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#37 2014-09-07 17:38:57

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

Don't get too excited smile It was just a play on "BSD is dying".

Let's all move to FreeBSD, wrestle with bears and smoke cigars.

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#38 2014-09-07 17:54:49

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,207

Re: boycott systemd

You know, instead of complaining, you could contribute to the only place on the internet that maintains factual integrity;
http://mirror.uncyc.org/wiki/Systemd

Also, to correct misconceptions about FreeBSD;
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/FreeBSD


Point & Squirt

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#39 2014-09-07 18:10:16

Head_on_a_Stick
CatMod
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 4,797

Re: boycott systemd

More alternatives:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=162606

@gutterslob: that site is utterly brilliant -- thank you!
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Arch_Linux
lol

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2014-09-07 18:18:54)

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#40 2014-09-07 19:01:18

cpoakes
#! CrunchBanger
From: Tucson, Arizona
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 202

Re: boycott systemd

@intoCB
Phase 0 Year of PHP 6


programming and administering unix since 1976 (BSD, System III, Xenix, System V, Linux)

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#41 2014-09-07 19:32:58

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

intoCB wrote:

Don't get too excited smile It was just a play on "BSD is dying".

Let's all move to FreeBSD, wrestle with bears and smoke cigars.

hook - in cheek
line - taunt
sinker - yup, still there
- - being reeled in ... :8

Now what was it we were supposed to do after we wrestle with cigars? lol

@ gutterslob and Head_on_a_Stick - the four of those are GREAT!  bookmarked, thank you!!


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#42 2014-09-07 21:34:55

xor
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 775

Re: boycott systemd

The Story Behind ‘init’ and ‘systemd’: Why ‘init’ Needed to be Replaced with ‘systemd’ in Linux

http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/

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#43 2014-09-07 22:15:35

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

^ I like this table better:

http://ranger.nongnu.org/minirc.html

]:D

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#44 2014-09-07 22:44:10

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

I think those tables are missing a column:

Action        | sysvinit | Upstart | systemd | minirc | Required at boot?

because systemd taking control of everything bothers me.


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#45 2014-09-07 23:11:45

exidux
#! CrunchBanger
From: Your screen.
Registered: 2014-09-05
Posts: 202
Website

Re: boycott systemd

I might be uninformed but : http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/

What is init?
In-fact init is the first process that starts when a computer boots, making it the parent of all other running processes directly or indirectly and hence typically it is assigned “pid=1“.

What is systemd?
Similar to init, systemd is the parent of all other processes directly or indirectly and is the first process that starts at boot hence typically assigned a “pid=1“.

Is this one of those cases where the ~Paranoid old-school users~ clash with the ~old-school users~
which on their turn clash with the ~ modernized user base~ ?

Last edited by exidux (2014-09-07 23:12:56)


~ When jessie hits stable you could upgrade crunchbang and keep it alive a bit longer.

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#46 2014-09-07 23:26:18

Sector11
#!'er to BL'er
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 15,667
Website

Re: boycott systemd

^ From that link...

Controversy

Linus Torvalds, Chief architect of Linux kernel, feels attitude of key developer of systemd towards users and bug reports do not seems ok. It was also reported that systemd philosophy is wired and a foreign way to control system processes. The same has been recorded from Patric Volkerding and other notable Linux Users and Developers as well as over online forum, time-to-time.

and...

Conclusion

Anything running as pid=1 must not break, must not be mess and must be controlled by users effectively and efficiently. Many-a-user believes that replacing init for systemd is nothing more than reinventing the wheel everytime as a side effect of Linux. But this is the diverse nature of Linux. This is because Linux is that much powerful. Change is good and we must appreciate it if it is for a good reason.


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#47 2014-09-07 23:43:50

exidux
#! CrunchBanger
From: Your screen.
Registered: 2014-09-05
Posts: 202
Website

Re: boycott systemd

People fear the abuse of a new init system could lead to security issues, and everything has an 'off' feel'
to it... Well, that is how i perceive this because i am not at home in the entire init system ordeal.

if it is a bad system with bad intentions then block it on kernel level (in the mainline) from even starting...
effectively 'prog-blocked'. want to use it, program your own kernel derivative.
]:D

Last edited by exidux (2014-09-07 23:44:24)


~ When jessie hits stable you could upgrade crunchbang and keep it alive a bit longer.

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#48 2014-09-08 06:02:08

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 2,412

Re: boycott systemd

Some anecdotal observations:

Looking at the evidence, classical system administration seems to be declining. Of course, system administration is still important but it's moving away from the guardian of the box stereotype of olde. If I was a young person I would not be looking at this as a profession but more at the level of networks, security, big data and the architecture/building/maintenance of the systems that are implied in these, or at software in general, which is increasingly OS-agnostic, except apps on your iPhone/Android phone but that sector is going through difficult times.

Although it would be patently wrong to say that sys admins hate systemd, I get the distinct impression that they are the group it inconveniences the most (through destabilising/removing existing practises/habits for fine grain control etc.). From a desktop user point of view, does it matter? Probably not.

So there may be a shift in the way the industry is using or looking to use this Linux/server technology. Systemd may not favour old-style classical system administration but maybe it does solve the actual problems we are facing. I don't know.

What is interesting is that if you look at a site like indeed.com, you can see the following trends in jobs over the past two years:
* Linux and Unix are in gentle decline (at roughly the same pace, although Unix has better numbers
* Debian and FreeBSD show remarkably similar (low) numbers and follow the same gentle decline of Linux/Unix
* RHEL/CentOS show slight upward trends but their numbers are still lower than Solaris
* Ubuntu is slightly declining but seems to be the next most requested Linux after CentOS/RHEL
* openSUSE/SUSE is remarkably irrelevant but then I have read elsewhere that it is primarily used by companies as an insurance policy against Red Hat, suggesting that less companies who use SUSE hire specifically for SUSE

In balance, I think I don't know enough about Systemd but since FreeBSD is very good really, I think it could be good if Linux init script refugees went there. That way we would eventually have two quite different operating systems and time will tell which model is the best. But FreeBSD is really quite useable. It's probably not a good choice for a desktop but it does what it sets out to do. Additional skilled users will only help it to do these things better.

Last edited by intoCB (2014-09-08 06:07:36)

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#49 2014-09-08 10:21:20

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,512

Re: boycott systemd

Sector11 wrote:

I think those tables are missing a column:

Action        | sysvinit | Upstart | systemd | minirc | Required at boot?

because systemd taking control of everything bothers me.

Actually that's mentioned in:

|                                              | sysvinit | Upstart | systemd | minirc |
|----------------------------------------------+----------+---------+---------+--------|
| Is the parent of all processes               | yes      | yes     | yes     | yes    |
| [You] know everything about the boot process | no       | no      | no      | yes    |
| Run scripts on boot and shutdown             | yes      | yes     | yes[1]  | yes    |

[1] Though it is impossible to find out how to customize them

And only those columns color "yes" in green. wink

Last edited by Alad (2014-09-08 10:34:46)

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#50 2014-09-08 17:04:52

Digit
#! Die Hard
From: the internet
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1,083
Website

Re: boycott systemd

pottybinOS.  :[

rather feels like it's pissing in dennis ritchie's face.  and stallman's, and the thousands of contributors to that paradigm(/s).  i'm not upset that systemd exists, i am upset that exists here... like... if a larve were growing on a log elsewhere, or growing in my leg.  ... i know that sounds rather incendiary to systemd fans, i dont mean it to be, just trying to find ways to express my take on the situation.

it seems like sufficiently a radical departure, that it really should have grown up in relatively more isolation from the systems we know n love (n hate), but we didnt know that, and couldnt have known that in the beginning.  now, it's too late, we're already commited, dug in, lazers shooting in all directions when we realise...

systemdtrap420.gif

systemdpleep.gif

i tried removing systemd from exherbo... it's far more entrenched than i imagined.  not sure it's possible to get out once in... not without some massive radical uninstallfest stripping back to what might as well be a fresh install.  ... gonna wait for nicoo's write up on using exherbo with runit before i attempt further surgery.  it sure would be nice in gentoo/funtoo/exherbo systems to have a sorta meta-useflag/option-group so we could avoid it all with a simple "-poetteringos" in our config.  ^_^ [edit- more than just "-systemd"]

not sure what my plans will be for crunchbang.  no loyalty will keep me around if it becomes another poetteringOS.

oh, one other note...
i know this is likely just silly, but have you guys taken a look around in systemd configs?  why does it try to look like it always wants to call home?  ... i know those calls to org.freedesktop.whatever.blah etc are just the local way it does things, but it still looks weird.  ... none of my other configs make themselves look like they want to call home.  XD  is that to better hide any future actual call-home features that may show up later on?  lol. ;D

Last edited by Digit (2014-09-08 17:06:57)

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