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#1 2010-11-20 23:38:11

DB_Cooper
#! Member
From: A narrowboat, English canals
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 56

wiki entries

I'm not sure what others think of this, but I am now finding the #! wiki very difficuly to navigate. It is wonderful that someone has diligently translated many of ther entries to Spanish but the Spanish entries and the English entries have, in many cases, the same title and even when they don't, they can be easily confused. This does not make for easy finding/reading.

I always go to the #! wiki as a first port of call as it is much easier than googling the problem and is always much more concise.

Do we think it is time to seperate these language entries so navigation would be simplier for both English and Spanish readers.

I may be wrong here but I for one, am slightly confused.


Dan

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#2 2010-11-21 01:44:48

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: wiki entries

I took a brief look at the wiki and I immediately see what you mean.

Also as an alternative to your solution, we can borrow the Arch Wiki organization of English titles with language in parenthesis like: "Default Applications (Español)".

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#3 2010-11-21 06:59:42

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: wiki entries

DB_Cooper wrote:

I'm not sure what others think of this, but I am now finding the #! wiki very difficuly to navigate. It is wonderful that someone has diligently translated many of ther entries to Spanish but the Spanish entries and the English entries have, in many cases, the same title and even when they don't, they can be easily confused. This does not make for easy finding/reading.

Agreed, the current situation is not ideal.

Would, prefixing the titles help? Although I guess this would mean all the Spanish titles appearing under E, which again, might not be ideal. hmm

Hmm.

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#4 2010-11-21 07:19:29

jobester
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 151

Re: wiki entries

One way could be quoting the entire homepage and then copy/pasting it to /eng, set the Wiki link to the /eng page (which ideally would have links to other languages at top), then delete or rename entries to improve organisation and readability.

Example:

http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/esp

Edit: by delete entries I mean just the links to non-relevant pages from the current /eng.

Last edited by jobester (2010-11-22 02:31:06)

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#5 2010-11-21 15:12:17

luc
#! Die Hard
From: Munich, Germany
Registered: 2010-03-21
Posts: 561

Re: wiki entries

I think dividing the entries into two (or if more languages add up more) subfolders would help. And a cross language link at the top of each entry is a nice thing, just in case you ended up in the wrong language or if there is more info available in another language you know.
luc

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#6 2010-11-23 04:17:26

errans
Member
From: Planet Earth
Registered: 2010-11-22
Posts: 45
Website

Re: wiki entries

Hi everyone.

I helped translating Crunchbang's Wiki into Spanish and this is my first post at this Forum. So is great to be here.

Fist of all, I want to thank every person that has showed their appreciation for my translation work and as I said before, I'm the one who's thankful for all Philip's work at the Distro and everyone around CrunchBang, this is a truly unique, creative, generous and helpful community. I'm deeply thankful with CrunchBang and Linux in general and I hope to see them growing, specially on new generations of users everywhere.

The way Philip and everyone have modded the Distro in some respects is inspirational to say the least. I work with other Distros as well, but always tend to integrate the CrunchBang way of things for people at the end, because they figure out all the benefits behind it, specially in terms of performace. I love CrunchBang in my old but beloved Compaq 1278 laptop (I guess I can compete in the low end system's category, but happy to do it), as well as all my other Linux systems with CrunchBang or #!-like mods. big_smile

Second, I know a text entry can't show our faces so we all can perceive the feelings, intentions and gestures on people's face when posting a message, and constantly that can brew misunderstandings, so before anything: I like to think that I'm a zen-like, openminded, relaxed, peaceful and almost always smiling person... even when I write. If at any moment the intention on my words is misundestood or it can be interpreted as condescending, harsh, unpolite or anything alike,
I apologize beforehand and prior to any controversy rising, please email me, ask me what I tried to conveyed, because is almost sure it wasn't meant to hurt anyone's susceptibilities and I made a mistake trying to express my ideas. Please, remember English is not my mother's tongue, and it's just Linux not religion, but every aspect of it absolutley worths a nice chat. 

Now, I agree with DB_Cooper and everyone's posts regarding the navigation problems on the Wiki index due to other languages becoming mixed up with the English entries.Though it's not an specific problem regarding Spanish translation. As a matter of fact, it tended to be an imminent issue, in the sense that, as other translations became more intensely attended, the result would be the same. In this case, the issue with the Spanish entries is more noticeable as no other translation has been, so far, as attended as this one.

This fact is reflected by the inclusion on the English "General Index" of the "Wiki Index" page for the Russian and Danish versions, the "About CrunchBang" for the Japanese and Polish versions and the "How to autostart applications when openbox start" page for the German version of the Wiki as well.

Of course I can be wrong, but I think in the end, the problem more than involving all other languages tending to be mixed up with the English version, implicates and suggest a problem with the structure of the folders and subfolders that conform the Wiki's layout organization. Of course the English version comprehends the highest rate of CrunchBang users worldwide, it is a distro created in the U.K. and therefore English language must be a priority at the moment of presenting the Wiki and the system for everyone interested in it.

Now, all the previous posts are very interesting, personally, I think prefixing or indexing the entries in any form, just as Philip said, is not an ideal solution at the end, and eventually the problem would just replicate when more translations became more actively attended and the community would end up with a "400 similar entries" Wiki index as hard to read as it is now with the Spanish language incident.

I think maybe the same could happen if the Arch Wiki organization model gets implemented as "anonymous - The Mystery Moderator" propose. Now, if the Entries had a little link to their Spanish, Polish, Japanese, German, Danish counterparts, it could be very possible that someone not knowing those little details could end up deleting those links. At the same time, those links could make the Wiki index too much convoluted or ergonomically uncomfortable as more and more languages could catch interest on making the Wiki more accesible in their respective tongues, and adding this to the fact that some entry titles are way too long that could help to the "too convoluted" page scenario.

Like DB_Cooper stated, lots of the names for the entries would result in apparent duplications 'cause sometimes english and other language terms can match. I mean, when you say tint2 or obconf, well, is tint2 and obconf and there's not much you can do about it. When I translated some of the entries I tried to use some names with the sp (spanish) abbreviation at some point in their addresses for matter of possible future standarization (which we know sometimes is the itch of every Linux picky critic and a real need in Tuxland) and every set of standarized problems has a possible standarized solution. Well, maybe I made a mistake with that. I don't know, at the moment it seemed to be the right or logical thing to do. I tought the "/sp" part would make an entry into a separate "sp" folder that would be only in the Spanish version of the Wiki accesible from the Translations Index page and not to add it to the general index making the Spaghetti incident. sad

The idea of the separation of languages could be an interesting solution.
In that case I can see two scenarios.

Scenario #1: The "Translations" page could be renamed and made as a treshold for all the Wiki versions, including the English version at the top of the Menu options as the "Main Version - English Wiki". Leaving at the sight of the visitor all the other possible languages he/she could choose from. That also would be a way to reaffirm CrunchBang Linux on the user's mind, as a distro with a minimalist design, a plural, international and language including point of view towards any user trying to reach it from anywhere around the world, and also maybe could invite to make more progress on the different languages available for the Wiki and why not, maybe the operating system translation itself. In a somehow more accidented manner this idea is implemented, for example, at the Pardus Wiki page, of course, with a more cartoonish look, but the idea about content organization is there and maybe could be useful as they manage to keep separated all their Wiki versions by language and every language, lets say, inside a separate folder.

Scenario #2: Maybe a link in the Main Index of the Wiki called "Choose other Language for this Wiki" in front of the "CrunchBang Community Wiki" title, above the "Table of Contents" or right above the "Index of Namespaces" title could be a way to let people know from the start there are other options available, because certainly the "Translations" link, at the "T" is very low to be immediately visible and sometimes people tends to overlook it thinking it's about how to cooperate on translating and not the actual content instead.

Of course these two scenarios involve a minor re-arrange of the Wiki's structure, but that minor re-arrange could keep different language entries from confusing one another and maybe could ensure certain level of order and cleanliness over some significative period of time. After all, CrunchBang is being entirely renovated and these scenarios conform to that vision of renewal and reordering of ideas and contents.

Personally, I think the Scenario #1 could be a very good option since I find the "Translations" page to be very cleanly designed, very easy, calm and inviting on visual terms, and right now it looks simply awesome with the current web design, of course it could be even cleaner if we just leave every language name as the main link to its respective "Wiki index page" and changing the title at the top of the "Translations" page indicating that now it is the Main Page for the "Crunchbang Community Wiki", after all, every user in every language is part of this Community.

Of course, those are just my toughts and I could be wrong or maybe leaving something out of the picture, altough I believe it could be a good move in terms of order, usability and cleanliness  over some singificative period of time.

Thanks.

Last edited by errans (2010-11-23 08:23:25)

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#7 2010-11-23 20:03:47

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: wiki entries

@errans, first off, I know I have thanked you personally, but I would like to say thank you publicly too. Your efforts at translating the wiki are really appreciated, thank you! smile

Also, I have to say, I feel totally responsible for not putting a translations system in place sooner. It should have been implemented from the start, but to be honest, I did not foresee that it would be needed. Doh. hmm

Anyhow, I have been reading about this DokuWiki translations plugin. It is the same plugin as used on the DokuWiki wiki itself, and it seems to be quite effective. I will look into using the plugin on the CrunchBang wiki and report back.

Thank you again. smile

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#8 2010-11-23 20:41:35

DB_Cooper
#! Member
From: A narrowboat, English canals
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 56

Re: wiki entries

Good job on the translations errans. I don't think that a solution for the wiki was required until you started your work as there were very few other non-English entries.

I'm sure that philip will sort it out in his own inimitable way.


Dan

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#9 2010-11-23 20:50:33

blackmamba
Member
Registered: 2010-11-22
Posts: 11

Re: wiki entries

anonymous wrote:

I took a brief look at the wiki and I immediately see what you mean.

Also as an alternative to your solution, we can borrow the Arch Wiki organization of English titles with language in parenthesis like: "Default Applications (Español)".

YES YES YES adopt as MUCH of their framework as possible.....love dat wiki

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#10 2010-11-24 05:13:45

errans
Member
From: Planet Earth
Registered: 2010-11-22
Posts: 45
Website

Re: wiki entries

@Corenominal: No, no, once again Thank you for all your work Philip, CunchBang rocks! smile
As said before, it is my pleasure to be able to help out anyway I can, whenever it's possible. We'll all be eager to learn from any solution you may bring to the table for our beloved Wiki. smile

Like some artist said: "What a happy accident", that CrunchBang now needs a translation system, I guess it's a healthy sign of growth. Lets hope and work to have soon an extensive extensive Wiki for anyone interested on it on any possible language. It's a happy thing to prepare all the needed documentation for any potential user arriving, it's like preparing a good surprise party, but without a naked clown with a massive moustache holding hands with an IRS agent inside a cake -ouch! my eyes! Stop Ballmer! (for that MS products exist, sorry I'm here at home fixing a dualboot machine with a corrupt part, we all know which one's the corrupt part) tongue

I really foresee CrunchBang going Bang! very very soon, but Bang! in the best possitive way. I mean, I'm sure very soon it will have a lot more users, it's only on a matter of time as more people is appreciating the "matter of principles" aspect of Linux, specially now that some developers are paving their way to become mainly vendors, well, or maybe just confirmming their id as investors on a bussiness project (I suspect traveling through space is not always an experience with happy endings, but that's another story that of course we all have seen before in Tuxland). Happily, CrunchBang is here for those with an open mind and adventurous spirit and how a great thing it's to see it as a project with integrity, intelligence and a real sense of community as basic principles, that's why many of us love it.

@DB_Cooper: Thanks a lot Mr.Cooper. I totally agree with you, Philip will sort it out like no one else could and I bet all my weekly Dr.Pepper's supply on that (well, I have right now only two on my fridge, but that must count for something, faith goes beyond numbers and I can bet them  with total confidence on Philip's talent).

@anonymous-The Mystery Moderator & blackmamba: I have to retract from a previous point of view I wrote. I had not visited the ArchWiki since a long time ago and today I gave myself the chance to and you're both absolutely right, that's a great Wiki system, as a matter of fact, it's just the same as the one I mentioned when I made the reference to the Pardus Wiki page. So I retract and must admit that now that I revisited the ArchWiki I also think is an excellent option. My apologies for not checking at the moment before writting, my mistake. Indeed, that's an excellent Wiki system.

Thanks.

Last edited by errans (2010-11-24 09:27:21)

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#11 2010-11-30 01:45:35

saneks
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2009-10-01
Posts: 999

Re: wiki entries

errans, as another not-native english speaker I'd say your pretty good at it.

I was on the wiki today, was happy about the intense work, the many articles and the many translations and now just stumbled across this thread.

I too thought there's a bit more organization needed with growing content and translations.
for translations, I think it could be organized like i an normal wikipedia entry. I usually start reading the english articles, because #! default makes it that way and the english wikipedia is the biggest (I am german btw) - if I need translation, I just hit the buttons to the german entries.. probably that might be the easiest way. To show what translations are avaiable.

I don't read many forums (only this, sometimes slitaz and some 2,3 more specific stuff) - but slitaz has something like this. but i think it's a pretty small board.

for the time being, i'd suggest putting a suffix like [sp]  [en] [de] [fr] at the end of an article-title, so similar things will appear at the same spot on the index, but clearly depicting the language.

also I'd say that some entries need clearer titles. usually I search the site with CTRL+F, but sometimes I just navigate to the initial letter of an entry.. and it's getting complicated. I should think there are people out there that might get confused by that.

so.. enough said, thanks to everyone for their great work on this great distro. and to stress it another time: this is the friendliest and most polite forum I've ever met on the net.

good night!


eee701 user & other lap/desktops

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#12 2010-12-02 20:29:46

errans
Member
From: Planet Earth
Registered: 2010-11-22
Posts: 45
Website

Re: wiki entries

saneks wrote:

errans, as another not-native english speaker I'd say your pretty good at it.

Thanks a lot Saneks. smile

Sorry, I couldn't reply before for your kind words due to some work related matters I had to attend, but as always, I appreciate and try to reply to any feedback with my name on it. Thanks, thanks a lot. big_smile



saneks wrote:

I don't read many forums (only this, sometimes slitaz and some 2,3 more specific stuff) - but slitaz has something like this. but i think it's a pretty small board.

Isn't Slitaz great too? For the time being CrunchBang, as well as Slitaz, may have relatively small boards, but I think that will change in some near future - my 8 ball tells me so - no seriously, I see a bright future for both distros, as they are innovative and very good representatives of a new generation of distros with a way of thinking and doing things outside the box with an intelligent approach and no fear for experimentation added to a very open and flexible mindset and framework, and more people that one could imagine is really looking for that these days, I think this is the calm before the twist, indeed this is a very good time for experimentation. Isn't it funny that people interested around Slitaz curiously (well, not really out of curiosity) is also very interested in CrunchBang? For me that says a lot. Mainly good things.

Last edited by errans (2010-12-02 23:17:46)

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#13 2010-12-03 03:30:23

errans
Member
From: Planet Earth
Registered: 2010-11-22
Posts: 45
Website

Re: wiki entries

Regarding the organization of the wiki entries itself...
...and agreeing again with Mr.DB Cooper, "I'm confident Philip will sort it out the best possible way" using all of his intelligence and talent. I've seen him following very closely all of our feedback related to this particular subject and I can imagine he's already pondering all possible options, from the implementation of the DokuWiki translation plugin, to the adoption of the ArchWiki framework (option for which -like other forum members- I also root for) and every possible alternative in between.

saneks wrote:

For the time being, i'd suggest putting a suffix like [sp]  [en] [de] [fr] at the end of an article-title, so similar things will appear at the same spot on the index, but clearly depicting the language. also I'd say that some entries need clearer titles. usually I search the site with CTRL+F, but sometimes I just navigate to the initial letter of an entry.. and it's getting complicated. I should think there are people out there that might get confused by that.

Personally, I think the best would be to use time wisely towards an integral solution with every detail involved, no matter how much time it takes (which in the end represents pretty much the development schedule approach at which Crunchbang is trying to adapt to, and which I think is the healthiest) and letting the rest to a matter of mere aesthetic adjustments and minimal details. The solution itself is not off hand and we just have to be patient for Philip to choose from the options he considers as ideal for the project and then conceptually and technically implement them.

Regarding the entry titles.
As said before, in some of the Wiki entries you can't change titles just as easily as some might suggest. I mean, that's a very ideal scenario, specially for English native speakers, which conforms the most prominent part of CrunchBang's population, but sometimes title entries deals with technical subjects that can't be addressed in no other way but by their native and specific technical names, as a non native English speaker just like me, I think you can relate to that matter.

What I do think, is that some original entry titles are way too long, and some other could be better located in the "General Wiki Index" with a proper categorization of the subject on behalf their original authors and translators. That's why in my particular case, all subjects related to Openbox I decided to started them with the term "Openbox:..." as a way to categorize a little bit the contents of those entries, trying to avoid having Openbox contents all over the Spanish version of the Wiki Index.

Personally, I think a separation of languages could be a need in the end and a way to prevent any future chaos as "DB Cooper" stated; and that's where it would be a great option to indicate in the "General Index" in which languages that entry is available by some option like the suffix you mentioned. But again I think a great solution would be the ArchWiki framework as "Anonymus-Mystery Moderator" and "Blackmamba" purposed

Regarding the translation of some terms.
For example, if the term "Openbox" was translated to its straight forward Spanish counterpart as "Caja Abierta", that would relate to nothing that Spanish native speakers could consult at any other extent on the web outside the Wiki. Moreover, it would contain almost no significant unit on it, not to mention semiotic relevance, just because all technical or helping references on the web relate to the native technical specific name that is "Openbox" and that would apply for other languages too.

Am I a fan of my specific native language and that's why I insist in my position?
Not at all, I'm seeing it from the usability perspective and from an including point of view towards the Wiki serving people well, in an inclusive and a long term fashion.

By the way, it's a great thing to see that just very recently the French CrunchBang Community was formed (Congratulations!) and there are already some translated entries in French at the "General Wiki Index", but there's not a "French" entry created on the "Translations" page, that at the moment, is the only way to categorize Wiki entries by language for its easy reference. Again, that just shows how the enthusiasm and interest grows around Crunchbang from users and members from all around the world and people using natively other languages outside English.

There are lots of interesting cases around translation in Linux that could be very instructional to learn from. For example, (and this is has no intention to be controversial or anything like that, and only reflects my own points of view, personal experience and observations) sometimes people - very talented but I suspect very young people too - involved in translation efforts, have made some very delicate changes on words used at the OS itself describing vital pieces of software with certain degree of inaccuracy, and those changes relates not to a specific talent or lack of it regarding translation skills, but in terms of a correct contextualization of some terms, economy of characters on the corresponding strings, lack of correlation of how those strings interact onscreen in the real world and how the user perceives them, and a lack of sense on semiotics.

Another problem that plagues the translation sphere in Linux is protagonism, some of these translators are practically chasing any microscopic change in the translation strings, and in order to be present at each, they begin to change even the slightest word to remain recognized as original authors of the string; usually, without taking notice on how this changes they consider as small, finally affects the string or the way the software will be displayed for the user. I've seen how people translate -sometimes wrongly- one or two words affecting the string in terms of significance or anti-ergnomical lenght  at real screen size just hours before the translation gets freeze to be deployed.

So lets say I proceed to contextualize the word or string in the most correct possible way, later someone jumps in to alter again the string with one or two words, that person takes credit, thing for which I couldn't care the less as long as the contextualization of terms in the string gets well done, but then someone else gets in and changes again the string, leaving it again wrongly contextualized and then the very sterile game of the alpha male begins to a point of getting ridiculous, that's when I loose interest on wasting any time at it. Anyway, this happens beyond any consideration about the final quality of the product or the user experience, resulting in wrong translations, inconsistencies or wrong contextualization of those strings. Specially a loss in significant unit for the term in its use on the real world.

Repeat that attitude and behaviour ad absurdum ad infinitum, and that's how you never achiveve standarization on that field for Linux.


saneks wrote:

this is the friendliest and most polite forum I've ever met on the net.

Absolutely agree with you 100%

The friendliest, most polite, intelligent and really practical in terms of really finding solution for the subjects purposed and very present reasons that will make CrunchBang grow in a sustained manner in the Linux world, added to the quality of the distribution itself.

Last edited by errans (2010-12-03 19:16:35)

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#14 2010-12-08 05:09:42

Vuoristoneuvos
Member
Registered: 2010-03-07
Posts: 28

Re: wiki entries

Bringing a dead thread back: especially now that Statler got the confusing "alpha" out of it's name, a list for it's packages would be a valuable resource to add to the wiki. Currently there only exists the lists for the outdated Ubuntu-versions. The site search shows up a thread with corenominal's post that has a link to pastebin pages containing these lists for both versions (http://crunchbanglinux.org/pastebin/526, http://crunchbanglinux.org/pastebin/527),  but are these up to date?

Last edited by Vuoristoneuvos (2010-12-08 05:11:10)

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#15 2010-12-08 07:56:30

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: wiki entries

Vuoristoneuvos wrote:

Bringing a dead thread back: especially now that Statler got the confusing "alpha" out of it's name, a list for it's packages would be a valuable resource to add to the wiki.

Agreed, this should be better documented.

P.S. this topic is far from dead, it is very high on my list of priorities and I am hoping to dedicate some time to the wiki this weekend. wink

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#16 2010-12-08 18:02:52

Vuoristoneuvos
Member
Registered: 2010-03-07
Posts: 28

Re: wiki entries

corenominal wrote:

P.S. this topic is far from dead, it is very high on my list of priorities and I am hoping to dedicate some time to the wiki this weekend. wink

Oh, it seems I interpretet the date wrong ^^

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#17 2010-12-08 19:37:08

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: wiki entries

Vuoristoneuvos wrote:
corenominal wrote:

P.S. this topic is far from dead, it is very high on my list of priorities and I am hoping to dedicate some time to the wiki this weekend. wink

Oh, it seems I interpretet the date wrong ^^

I doubt that, I just work very slowly. big_smile

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#18 2010-12-31 09:02:21

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: wiki entries

Sorry for the delay on this, but I have now configured the translation plugin for the wiki. It is set-up so that the default top level namespace is "en". In order for this to work correctly, some of the translation work that has already been completed will need to be copied to the correct locations, before being deleted from the top level namespace.

I will work on this myself, but any help would be greatly appreciated! smile

Again, apologies for the delay.

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#19 2011-01-04 02:45:22

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,082

Re: wiki entries

I looked to see if I could figure it out with getting things into the right places but I'm sooooo lost. yikes It probably doesn't help that I don't know how to wiki (yet, I just need to sit down and learn it) and I only speak English so it's hard to tell if everything would be in the right order, but if there's someone here who can take the lead on this I can try to help out with what I can.


#! forum moderator

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#20 2011-01-05 00:34:10

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: wiki entries

chillicampari wrote:

I looked to see if I could figure it out with getting things into the right places but I'm sooooo lost. yikes

I am not surprised, it is a bit of a mess at the moment and needs some serious editing. I do not think it is helped by having the alpha index plugin on the homepage, which makes it all look very daunting. I am currently thinking about better ways to organise things. Personally, I would like to see the wiki become a lot simpler, with quality over quantity, but this would require some pruning. hmm

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#21 2011-01-05 02:25:08

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,082

Re: wiki entries

I'm just thinking aloud with this post...

There's a lot of content in the existing wiki (and a lot of work put into by many people that is much appreciated) but- a great deal of it pertains to the old house (Ubuntu as a base) which served us well for a long time and (to be frank), we've moved since then smile so we have a rather unique situation with documentation.

So I'm wondering if instead of pruning the existing content and updating which may involve complete rewrites anyway if it would be better to (I'm a little hesitant to even mention this big_smile)... archive and/or eventually retire what we have and start fresh?

The thinking behind this also ties into another recent topic about the Statler Dev forum here:

http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic … -subforum/

Pvsage mentioned there are things in there that would be a good fit in the wiki and I agree. I think a good starting point would be finding the common issues (like video driver installation, etc.) and the other things people should know when using CrunchBang for the first time and I think some of the existing how-tos could possibly slide right on over to the wiki with minimal touchups (in theory anyway). Many of us who've been around for a while have a good eye for what's currently relevant which can then be prioritized to go from there to build the framework. And I also think most of the organizing and prioritizing can even be done within the forum itself. 

And I'm mostly thinking of the English language content right now, I haven't read enough of the alternate content to be able to tell if it's Ubuntu or Debian oriented.

It wouldn't be a quick project by any means, but I believe it could achieve the goal (if done with care) of quality over quantity. We have what we need already, it's just about getting it to the right place and having it make sense when it's done. I also love simple. There are several wiki's out there that have the wheels built already that we could point to when it's appropriate instead of reinventing our own.

Now my own schedule can be pretty wonky (sometimes I'm here a lot but with the nature of my work I can drop off for days to weeks at a time with little notice), but if this sounds like a good idea I can try to come up with a workable starting point and see if there is interest.

So... I'm just throwing the idea out there.


#! forum moderator

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#22 2011-01-05 04:05:14

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
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Re: wiki entries

chillicampari wrote:

So I'm wondering if instead of pruning the existing content and updating which may involve complete rewrites anyway if it would be better to (I'm a little hesitant to even mention this big_smile)... archive and/or eventually retire what we have and start fresh?

I have to admit, a fresh start does sound appealing, but I would like to explore all the options first. smile

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#23 2011-01-05 04:13:55

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,082

Re: wiki entries

Gotcha. smile Whichever way you with up going with, let us know if/how we can help.


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#24 2011-01-05 04:15:52

FiniteStateMachine
Part of the Machine
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2009-06-29
Posts: 1,489

Re: wiki entries

While we're on the topic, I'd like to suggest we have in place pages which need content, or somewhere or way to find the incomplete pages.

I personally have had problems contributing to wikis in the past because it is difficult to know what they are looking for, or how my knowledge can help.
On the other hand, if I see a page is needed detailing how to install the proprietary ati drivers in #!, then i know immediately I can help.

And i think the entire community works this way. Like it was said earlier, this community is a great resource, friendly and willing to help. I think it is very important to utilize all the smart minds here to form a very coherent and complete wiki for CrunchBang cool


just call me...
~FSM~

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#25 2011-01-05 05:43:09

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: wiki entries

In the past I've helped create and maintain a couple of large wikis. One was focused on archiving useful how-tos etc from the Ubuntu forums. Some may remember it as being called the UDSF. In another I helped create the structure and setup of the current Zenwalk wiki.

My experience in the context of these wikis is that they can be a very time intensive and ultimately frustrating experience if trying to maintain the large amount of data that they generate. As has been mentioned the information on wikis is constantly becoming outdated and the real issue is in harnessing the workers to help maintain the wiki and keep it current to users needs. I think this describes the situation that the CrunchBang wiki now finds itself in after the switch to a Debian base.

It would be quite easy to start again but ultimately you are going to face the same problems down the track with out of date data that needs updating. In that context I would suggest two solutions.

1. Take the current wiki and strip out all the out of date and Ubuntu based information.  Leave a framework of official support pages and then lock it down with a small team maintaining these endorsed pages.

or

2. Start again, build a framework of official support pages then lock it down and have the same maintenance team idea as above.

If CrunchBang stays Debian based then it would be somewhat easier to maintain with the long amount of time between official releases. The above is not a very community minded approach (nor I guess would it be popular) but I believe it would be maintainable and avoid the problems I've mentioned and address those which the wiki now faces.

Of course the most immediate problem is time and commitment of members to either rebuild the current wiki or to start a new one. My experience is that people start out with great enthusiasm  to create new wikis but soon drop away when the real work of maintaining it begins.

It's a conundrum.

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