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#51 2014-08-13 22:21:39

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 3,472

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

I do what Sector11 does, unless someone tells him it's a bad idea and he decides differently. Then I do that instead  neutral

Whatever, full backup followed by liberal use of apt-listbugs and a conservative apt-mark hold regime means no major borkage for a while (fingers crossed smile )


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#52 2014-08-13 22:50:34

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,535

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

I always use apt-get dist-upgrade, and the only trouble I have had is due to bugs in upstream packages (e.g. the recent catfish trouble) or very specific hardware issues (like my wifi dongle).


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#53 2014-08-14 02:24:37

Sector11
77345 ¡#
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 12,105
Website

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

damo wrote:

I do what Sector11 does, unless someone tells him it's a bad idea and he decides differently. Then I do that instead  neutral

Whatever, full backup followed by liberal use of apt-listbugs and a conservative apt-mark hold regime means no major borkage for a while (fingers crossed smile )

OH GREAT!  If I go down I take someone with me ...  now I'm getting nervous neutral

what if I'm wrong! devil
. . . but what if I'm right!  angel
. . . . . .  what if it doesn't matter?  yikes

EDIT:
Personally I think with apt-listbugs and apt-mark hold | unhold that apt-get dist-upgrade is a safe bet with 'stable' and a definite recommended use for testing and sid.

Last edited by Sector11 (2014-08-14 02:31:27)


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#54 2014-08-14 11:34:13

twoion
Emerald Caffeine
From: 星界
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 885

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Alad wrote:

My opinion is this stuff is way too complicated.

It depends, right? IMO it's not necessary to set a policy here or recommend anything as long as we assume that the person who is interfacing with the system knows where she is going.

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#55 2014-08-14 15:30:28

antsunrise
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2014-06-11
Posts: 153

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Did anyone figure out what the difference between dist-upgrade and upgrade were?

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#56 2014-08-14 16:42:37

Head_on_a_Stick
#! Cat
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 2,087

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

@antsunrise --- dist-upgrade will remove packages as needed during an update.
Plain upgrade will not remove any packages during the update process.
For Testing/Unstable, dist-upgrade is used because it is rolling-release & packages are replaced.
For Stable, no new packages should be introduced during the lifecycle of the release (there are exceptions) so plain upgrade should be enough & removes any risk of inadvertent breakage (especially in the case of newbies)...
IMO, anyway tongue

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2014-08-14 16:43:40)

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#57 2014-08-14 16:47:51

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 3,472

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

antsunrise wrote:

Did anyone figure out what the difference between dist-upgrade and upgrade were?

I guess Debian did tongue smile

From man apt-get

upgrade
Used to install the newest versions of all packages currently installed on the system from the sources enumerated in /etc/apt/sources.list(5). Packages currently installed with new versions available are retrieved and upgraded; under no circumstances are currently installed packages removed, nor are packages that are not already installed retrieved and installed. New versions of currently installed packages that cannot be upgraded without changing the install status of another package will be left at their current version. An update must be performed first so that apt-get knows that new versions of packages are available.

dist-upgrade
In addition to performing the function of upgrade, this option also intelligently handles changing dependencies with new versions of packages; apt-get has a "smart" conflict resolution system, and it will attempt to upgrade the most important packages at the expense of less important ones, if necessary.

So upgrade "under no circumstances" adds or removes packages; dist-upgrade may do


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#58 2014-08-14 17:30:42

Sector11
77345 ¡#
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 12,105
Website

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

antsunrise wrote:

Did anyone figure out what the difference between dist-upgrade and upgrade were?

I had man page outputs here but I see damo supplied them already.  Reading those it looks to me that there are times that "upgrade" and "safe-upgrade" will not perform updates for some packages.

Back to opinions, here's mine:

I switched to "upgrade" for a few days ... didn't see a difference ... back on "dist-upgrade" which I think is a smart choice for testing and SID anyway and in those cases where Head-on-a-Stick points out "there are exceptions" for stable as well.

@ Head-on-a-Stick: I do see your point about new people to Linux though.  So let's go a step farther, what happens when a 'new person' uses "update" but doesn't have apt-listbugs installed and without knowing installs an update with a serious or critical bug?  Also if he is new he may not know about "apt-mark hold" or "apt-mark unhold"

NOTE: corenominal's cb-welcome script uses: dist-upgrade

With all due respect to everyone here:
Again, depending on what you read, man pages, Debian wiki, Debian Handbook, Debian forums posts, posts here at #!, and how you interpret what you read, along with "personal experiences" --> toss a coin and pick one. wink

@ Alad and twoion - It's a learning discussion  smile


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#59 2014-08-14 17:44:55

Head_on_a_Stick
#! Cat
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 2,087

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Sector11 wrote:

@ Head-on-a-Stick: I do see your point about new people to Linux though.  So let's go a step farther, what happens when a 'new person' uses "update" but doesn't have apt-listbugs installed and without knowing installs an update with a serious or critical bug?  Also if he is new he may not know about "apt-mark hold" or "apt-mark unhold"

NOTE: corenominal's cb-welcome script uses: dist-upgrade

@Sector11 --- a newbie is advised to run Debian Stable (ie stock #!): in such a setup, plain upgrade would not install this update, therefore apt-listbugs is not required. This is why I believe it should be recommended to newcomers. sorry, I see what you mean, maybe we should make a sticky about that to advise newcomers?
I may be mistaken, but I believe the dist-upgrade run by the cb-welcome script serves to ensure the installation is correctly tracking the #!-specific Waldorf repositories --- ie it can be considered a "one-off" to be used at the start of the installation.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2014-08-14 17:48:29)

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#60 2014-08-14 19:22:36

Sector11
77345 ¡#
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 12,105
Website

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

@ Head_on_a_Stick

Let's go back into the stroked out stuff a sec: You have a misunderstanding of what apt-listbugs is:

Description: tool which lists critical bugs before each apt installation
apt-listbugs is a tool which retrieves bug reports from the Debian Bug Tracking System and lists them.
Especially, it is intended to be invoked before each upgrade/installation by apt in order to check whether the upgrade/installation is safe.

Many developers and users prefer the unstable version of Debian for its new features and packages.  apt, the  usual upgrade tool, can break your system by installing a buggy package.

apt-listbugs lists critical bug reports from the Debian Bug Tracking System. Run it before apt to see if an upgrade or installation is known to be unsafe.

apt-listbugs and the hold/unhold commands have no bearing one what's better "upgrade" or "dist-upgrade" but it works with "apt" be it update or dist-upgrade or on it's own: "man apt-listbugs" or "apt-listbugs -h"  Maybe I've been confusing the issue by mentioning them.

For example Debian stable grub is bug free.

 14 Aug 14 | 16:00:01 ~
    $ apt-listbugs list grub
Retrieving bug reports... Done
Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done

and if it's installed it works automatically with upgrade or dist-upgrade.  While that's a SID post, bugs 'here' are still possible as pvsage pointed out with catfish recently.

Now back to "upgrade" or "dist-upgrade": there's another script that uses "dist-upgrade", and one of my favourites: smxi tongue , Oh sorry, that's mean, I mean wink  lol  lol


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#61 2014-08-14 19:26:40

Head_on_a_Stick
#! Cat
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 2,087

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

@Sector11 --- thanks for the explanation; I've never used apt-listbugs: I like living on the edge smile
Haven't some users experienced problems with the sxmi scripts? I've not used them so I can't really comment.

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#62 2014-08-14 19:32:56

Sector11
77345 ¡#
From: SR11 Cockpit
Registered: 2010-05-05
Posts: 12,105
Website

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

@Sector11 --- thanks for the explanation; I've never used apt-listbugs: I like living on the edge smile
Haven't some users experienced problems with the sxmi scripts? I've not used them so I can't really comment.

Like everything - nothing is perfect, but I've never had a problem with smxi.

Not even #! is perfect, otherwise the forum wouldn't have a Help & Support section.   smile


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#63 2014-08-14 19:42:24

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 3,472

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

@Sector11 --- thanks for the explanation; I've never used apt-listbugs: I like living on the edge smile
Haven't some users experienced problems with the sxmi scripts? I've not used them so I can't really comment.

The thing I like about apt-listbugs is that it runs automatically when you run dist-upgrade. It gets the latest bug reports, then pauses so you have a chance to OK it or bale out and apt-mark hold the problem packages.

I use smxi and friends a lot, mainly for nvidia upgrades and cleaning cruft. I think it is a seriously useful set of scripts which should be a default application. Especially useful for Testing/Unstable users.
To quote one post on a Debian thread about smxi

It works great. Simplifies everything and allows new linux users to run an ever changing sid install very easily. I recommend it 100%!


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#64 2014-08-14 20:02:19

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,224

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Not making myself popular here, but eh.

Yes. [smxi] great if you want to break your system. Did you look at the (10k+) lines of code, the typo-rilled configurations it creates, amongst other issues? And the numerous reports on broken installs because of using it (just as described)?

Not trying to start an argument. But using it is just asking for trouble - even if some people report no issues. It's like upgrading libc6.

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#65 2014-08-14 20:04:22

Head_on_a_Stick
#! Cat
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 2,087

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

^ Yes 10,000 lines worries me too: my Window Manager is less than 2000 SLOC... hmm

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#66 2014-08-14 20:20:17

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,535

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

OK, everyone take a deeeeep breath and relax...

I think the best advice with stable is still to favor upgrade over dist-upgrade, and to give dist-upgrade a shot only if APT reports that "you have held broken packages".  I also believe apt-listbugs is a great idea and should be included as part of the default install of any Debian system that includes dist-upgrade as part of a first-run update script.

I'm Swiss neutral on smxi - I had trouble with it the one time I used it, but that is mostly because of the old Radeon APU on my mobo.


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#67 2014-08-14 23:05:59

antsunrise
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2014-06-11
Posts: 153

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Hmm interesting. I guess I'll start using dist-upgrade for Sid now. Never had any issues with regular upgrade. But it seems to be the safer bet with unstable. Nice thread

Okay running a decent update right now. Does dist-upgrade make it so you won't need to run autoclean or autoremove afterwards? About to find out maybe.

Yeah I guess so. I had 1053 packages before I just ran dist-upgrade. now 1048. interesting

Last edited by antsunrise (2014-08-14 23:10:16)

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#68 2014-08-14 23:09:46

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,224

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

^ ... Why do you bother with those few 100MBs of space? Me I like having old versions in the cache, should Bad Things (TM) happen...

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#69 2014-08-14 23:15:40

antsunrise
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2014-06-11
Posts: 153

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Perhaps it's the ocd in me. This is off topic question but I have updated font-config a few times after installing infinality. Does that override the whole set up? I haven't noticed honestly.I should have made it so they wouldn't upgrade anymore

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#70 2014-08-14 23:18:02

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,224

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Try Slackware, that should get rid of your purge-itis.  devil

As to infinality, IDK. IIRC the infinality debian package is not compatible with newer freetype versions.

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#71 2014-08-15 11:46:25

twoion
Emerald Caffeine
From: 星界
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 885

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

antsunrise wrote:

Perhaps it's the ocd in me. This is off topic question but I have updated font-config a few times after installing infinality. Does that override the whole set up? I haven't noticed honestly.I should have made it so they wouldn't upgrade anymore

Upstream infinality hasn't done anything to support libfreetype6 >= 2.5. I'm running infinality here against libfreetype6=2.4.9-1.1. I put that version on apt hold about 10 months ago ... it left only burnt soil with 2.5.

@bohomil on the Archlinux forums has patches for current libfreetype versions, however that hasn't been packaged for Debian yet AFAIK.

I'm planning on basing my next portable Linux installation on Arch, so I haven't made any efforts towards packaging/using those patches in Debian ... for me it's 2.4.9 until it dies.

However, that surprisingly doesn't seem to matter at all for applications - I've been moving from GTK3.0 to 3.12 and libqt4 to libqt5, Xorg 1.12(?) to 1.15.1 without any problems. Until they release libfreetype7 2.4.9 should work just fine ... can't be sure though.

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#72 2014-08-15 15:16:09

antsunrise
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2014-06-11
Posts: 153

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

Is it possible to go back to older version? I have the package. But if I remove the most recent it pretty much takes my whole system with it.

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#73 2014-08-15 15:41:05

Alad
Software Satan
Registered: 2014-02-20
Posts: 1,224

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#74 2014-08-16 09:21:47

twoion
Emerald Caffeine
From: 星界
Registered: 2012-05-11
Posts: 885

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

twoion wrote:
antsunrise wrote:

Perhaps it's the ocd in me. This is off topic question but I have updated font-config a few times after installing infinality. Does that override the whole set up? I haven't noticed honestly.I should have made it so they wouldn't upgrade anymore

Upstream infinality hasn't done anything to support libfreetype6 >= 2.5. I'm running infinality here against libfreetype6=2.4.9-1.1. I put that version on apt hold about 10 months ago ... it left only burnt soil with 2.5.

@bohomil on the Archlinux forums has patches for current libfreetype versions, however that hasn't been packaged for Debian yet AFAIK.

I'm planning on basing my next portable Linux installation on Arch, so I haven't made any efforts towards packaging/using those patches in Debian ... for me it's 2.4.9 until it dies.

However, that surprisingly doesn't seem to matter at all for applications - I've been moving from GTK3.0 to 3.12 and libqt4 to libqt5, Xorg 1.12(?) to 1.15.1 without any problems. Until they release libfreetype7 2.4.9 should work just fine ... can't be sure though.

I heard that the Infinality project is looking for a new maintainer! Whooo!

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#75 2014-08-16 09:36:20

Head_on_a_Stick
#! Cat
From: A world of pure imagination
Registered: 2014-01-21
Posts: 2,087

Re: Script to update CrunchBang

twoion wrote:

I heard that the Infinality project is looking for a new maintainer! Whooo!

I think the post by @brebs is absolutely correct --- @boohomil has an active development thread on the Arch forums:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=162098

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