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#1376 2014-03-05 05:27:19

johnraff
#!Drunkard
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 2,927
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

corenominal wrote:

As a number of people have stated, applications are just an 'apt-get install' away, and so I find myself thinking that I would much prefer to start from a clean slate, where the clean slate is a nicely configured Openbox environment, without a bunch of pre-installed applications, of which many may never get run on a given system.

Another running discussion happening here, in other threads and in personal correspondence, regards the desire shown by those who want to contribute. This is something I will definitely attempt to improve, and in combination with the having "less from the beginning" idea, could prove to be very interesting. I'm thinking community remixes, for those who want to play with making the base #! more application rich.

This all sounds like a good way forward. Maybe some lists of suggested apps could go somewhere - things that have been used in the past and found to fit in well with the #! setup. (ie most of the current default install) Maybe there's no need to put a whole slew of stuff in cb-welcome when apt-get or synaptic aren't that difficult. cb-welcome can be kept for more complicated combinations of packages and things that need a bit of config tweaking to help them work.
red_flag_tux.png


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator

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#1377 2014-03-05 05:42:46

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 3,390

Re: Ideas for Janice

I've been playing with remastersys to make an iso, and hacking at corenominal's cb-welcome and lib-cb-welcome scripts The idea was to try and make what so many here have been asking for - a more extensive choice of apps to install, while keeping the iso to a reasonable size. Guess what - it's getting very unwieldy, and is a very inelegant process imo.

So I'm not going to bother any more! big_smile

man up && man apt-get

Artwork at deviantArt;  Iceweasel Personas;  SLiM #! Themes;  Openbox themes

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#1378 2014-03-06 17:41:23

johnraff
#!Drunkard
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 2,927
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

corenominal wrote:

I would much prefer to start from a clean slate, where the clean slate is a nicely configured Openbox environment, without a bunch of pre-installed applications

While this is a great idea, it makes the static Openbox menu a bit problematic. Maybe this is the moment to listen to all the requests for an auto-updating apps menu, and add an "applications" pipe menu to the Crunchbang Openbox menu, maybe based on something like uxdgmenu for example?


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , idle twitterings  and GitStuff )
#! forum moderator

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#1379 2014-03-06 21:06:03

pachanka
New Member
Registered: 2013-08-15
Posts: 9
Website

Re: Ideas for Janice

I second the "clean slate" opinion. I like crunchbang exactly because of that approach.

Could I humbly ask if there is a test ISO or a pre-release of sorts for testing on #! 12?

(I figured there would be a thread about this, but I couldn't find one.  monkey )

Last edited by pachanka (2014-03-06 21:08:31)

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#1380 2014-03-07 00:05:45

antisoup
New Member
Registered: 2014-03-06
Posts: 9

Re: Ideas for Janice

Here is what I'm imagining:

I basic open box setup that allows you a simple/clean desktop, a few themes (which are probably just variations of the basic theme: green, light, dark, blue, etc) and a web browser. Then on top of this we have what are called 'build packs', which might just be puppet/chef/ansible scripts that do the heavy lifting. These build packs then come in a couple different flavors:

One flavor is obviously GUI based. If you want your conky to have sunshines when it is sunny and raindrops when it is raining there is a build pack for that. If you want a more modern, industrial feel there is a build pack for that.

The next flavor is what you might call philosophy driven. These are where most of this thread is based. It focuses on the packages. There would probably be a default build pack that ships and is installed via the welcome screen if one isn't selected. I can imagine one that installs uzbl, dmenu, etc for those minimalist purist. But, also one that installs chrome, libre office, shot well, etc for the complete desktop experience.

I can also imagine 'ruby-developer' build back that installs vim, tmux, rvm, etc. You could also see one that installs a bunch of security packages that look like Kali linux, etc.

This seems like a positive way to go and it would get more community involvement and also decrease the CD install size to under 700mb. It's possible that you could also offer #! + default build pack for DVD install if someone didn't have a network connection available.

Any feedback on this idea?

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#1381 2014-03-07 01:25:36

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Ideas for Janice

I think its a cool idea smile

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#1382 2014-03-07 02:41:46

Ozitraveller
#! Junkie
From: Far from the madding crowd!
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 257

Re: Ideas for Janice

This sounds similar to what are called profiles in DebianParl, Debian for Parliaments.

A basic debian install with a user selected profile during the install.

DebianParl is organized in system profiles:

  • desktop - tools for using a desktop/laptop for parliamentary work

  • desktop/email - desktop tools for trusted email correspondence

  • desktop/office - desktop tools for ordinary parliamentary office tasks

  • desktop/mobile - desktop tools for linking with personal mobile devices

  • desktop/legislation - desktop tools for detailed work on legislative documents

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianParl

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#1383 2014-03-07 03:32:31

theBat
Member
Registered: 2014-03-05
Posts: 33

Re: Ideas for Janice

The clean slate sounds really good.
One of the reasons I choose #! is because of the fast setup. Less applications to remove after installation.
In fact, my "dream version" of #! would be the nice Openbox configuration it comes with, Iceweasel and a terminal, nothing more, besides drivers and the usual behind the scenes stuff.


Children of the night... What music they make.

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#1384 2014-03-07 10:12:07

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 3,958

Re: Ideas for Janice

@antisoup, I like what you describe. This has come up a few times as community projects and it fits nicely with Corenominal's post a few posts back!


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres
Github

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#1385 2014-03-07 14:10:00

antisoup
New Member
Registered: 2014-03-06
Posts: 9

Re: Ideas for Janice

Ozitraveller,  Thanks for that. It looks like they are using chef. I have  a slight preference for ansible or puppet over chef, but it's all probably the same.  There's no reason we couldn't use all of them, but given the community size, it probably makes sense to pick one and focus our community efforts on just that technology as far as resources go.

Unia (or others), do you have any thoughts on why it failed as a community effort? Was there not a central repo? No one created the first basic ones? Etc.

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#1386 2014-03-07 14:25:00

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,922

Re: Ideas for Janice

CrunchBang used to have a "lite" edition, and it was beloved by at least a few users (I don't know the download statistics of how it compared in popularity to the full edition). So it is not unreasonable to speculate that such a thing might exist again in the future. LinuxBBQ people for example have shown there is a userbase for this type of project.

That said, in my opinion, a "distribution" must meet the basic needs of users, or else it is not a "distribution" at all. I personally consider a distro "half baked" if it does not allow the user out-of-the-box to surf the web, listen to music, watch a video, edit images, create office documents for work/school, etc.

This is 2014 and a gigabyte of storage costs mere pennies. It's time as a community to lose the "oh no, it has an image editor, it is so bloated!!" mentality.


/hugged

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#1387 2014-03-07 14:31:02

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Ideas for Janice

Like antisoup mentioned at the end, we could have a dvd install that includes the basic #! and a default build pack. This would satisfy users needing a traditional full-fat distro and the barebones edition can be used by others. Just like the old #!, we would have two editions. It's not like we can only have one.

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#1388 2014-03-07 14:32:44

tamikan
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-20
Posts: 777

Re: Ideas for Janice

snowpine wrote:

This is 2014 and a gigabyte of storage costs mere pennies. It's time as a community to lose the "oh no, it has an image editor, it is so bloated!!" mentality.

I say the secret is to not go above the size of a CD-R 737,280,000 bytes (700 MB)  no matter what's included for the sake of old computers with no dvd drive that cannot boot from usb on which #! gives a second life devil

Last edited by tamikan (2014-03-07 15:37:13)


Top things devil
dwb | Firefox Nightly | sakura | emacs | moc | #! | Arch | Doing 1 thing @ the time | Music from the 90s

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#1389 2014-03-07 20:20:33

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Ideas for Janice

Personally I don`t like the idea. Because let`s say a package contains chrome, libre-office and shotwell etc..... I probably just want some apps from this package and other apps from other packages. There will be fights about what should be in each of those packages, and what should be excluded. If at all doing something like this, I think there should be only two options:

1. The default Crunchbang install
2. A minimal openbox-base install, possibly with tint2, Thunar, Geany and Terminator, and everything else up to the user post-install.... With the following philosofy, Take it from here yourself....


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#1390 2014-03-07 21:31:01

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Ideas for Janice

ew wrote:

Personally I don`t like the idea. Because let`s say a package contains chrome, libre-office and shotwell etc..... I probably just want some apps from this package and other apps from other packages. There will be fights about what should be in each of those packages, and what should be excluded.

Well if these custom builds are only part of the welcome script (i.e. post-installation) AND if people can submit their own custom builds, then I see no problem with it. If you don't like the available builds, then don't use them. And if you prefer a different set of packages then put together your own list and see if it can be included as one of the choices.

ew wrote:

If at all doing something like this, I think there should be only two options:

1. The default Crunchbang install
2. A minimal openbox-base install, possibly with tint2, Thunar, Geany and Terminator, and everything else up to the user post-install.... With the following philosofy, Take it from here yourself....

I am fine with this; I really liked CrunchBang Lite when we used to have it.

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#1391 2014-03-07 21:34:24

antisoup
New Member
Registered: 2014-03-06
Posts: 9

Re: Ideas for Janice

Ew,

I see your point, but I don't think your approach is incompatible with mine. A couple points. I'm imagining a tool such as ansible, chef, or puppet that would allow you to customize the build packs themselves. So there shouldn't be any fighting over what goes in what. There might be a couple 'official' ones that are highly recommended, but that shouldn't stop anyone from rolling their own.

As far as your first option, I think that is fine as I've mentioned above. however, regarding #2, I don't see why one person can't install the openbox-base install and then pick from any number of build packs and/or roll their own and take it from there themselves.

Last edited by antisoup (2014-03-07 21:37:07)

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#1392 2014-03-08 02:09:11

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Ideas for Janice

antisoup wrote:

Ew,

I see your point, but I don't think your approach is incompatible with mine. A couple points. I'm imagining a tool such as ansible, chef, or puppet that would allow you to customize the build packs themselves. So there shouldn't be any fighting over what goes in what. There might be a couple 'official' ones that are highly recommended, but that shouldn't stop anyone from rolling their own.

As far as your first option, I think that is fine as I've mentioned above. however, regarding #2, I don't see why one person can't install the openbox-base install and then pick from any number of build packs and/or roll their own and take it from there themselves.

I don`t disagree with you. It would have been nice with something like that for a community-driven distro. But I seriously doubt that Corenominal would be interested in anything like this. Because it is a one-man distro created for his own needs, and as long as he personally has no need for a certain package or compilation of packages, he will not put them in Crunchbang. It would create more work for him.

But your ideas are great for a community-driven fork of Crunchbang, or a side-project within Crunchbang..., if Corenominal is fine with sideprojects like that  smile

Have you checked out Bodhi? There you get to choose between several different desktop enviroments and setups during install. From the very simple and minimal, to the bloated insanity...


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#1393 2014-03-08 03:17:22

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Ideas for Janice

ew wrote:

I don`t disagree with you. It would have been nice with something like that for a community-driven distro. But I seriously doubt that Corenominal would be interested in anything like this. Because it is a one-man distro created for his own needs, and as long as he personally has no need for a certain package or compilation of packages, he will not put them in Crunchbang. It would create more work for him.

But if we can create a program that can fetch and install these builds then we would only need to convince Philip to include that program as part of the welcome script. We wouldn't need to debate what program(s) to include on the live media. These scripts would run post-installation and they would be just like running sudo apt-get foo bar baz. Each build would be different and people would be able to pick ones they like.

Last edited by anonymous (2014-03-08 03:18:27)

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#1394 2014-03-08 10:45:16

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: Not Where I Belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 1,999

Re: Ideas for Janice

RacerBG wrote:

The idea about post-install scripts for programs not included by default and small iso sounds cool. We will have easy to use, simple and very configurable system after the install. smile

This isn't directed at RacerBG.  I just picked his/her post to quote from...

What's all of this talk about scripts to install apps?  What's wrong with using apt-get or aptitude?

03/08/2014 Edit:  While I understand the desire for a lean and mean base install, don't forget that some of the "unneeded" apps might be useful when you need to run CrunchBang live.  For installation on a computer, count my vote favoring a leaner CrunchBang.

Last edited by KrunchTime (2014-03-08 10:50:29)

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#1395 2014-03-08 13:34:13

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Ideas for Janice

anonymous wrote:

But if we can create a program that can fetch and install these builds then we would only need to convince Philip to include that program as part of the welcome script. We wouldn't need to debate what program(s) to include on the live media. These scripts would run post-installation and they would be just like running sudo apt-get foo bar baz. Each build would be different and people would be able to pick ones they like.

Yes, that''s true. If someone could convince Corenominal to do it, I would be all for it. The only possible downside for Corenominal is that users might mess up their installs that way, and that Corenominal shouldn't be hold responsible for it, nor be expected to support it. If that was made 100% clear, I can''t see why it shouldn''t be implemented.


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#1396 2014-03-08 14:37:16

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Ideas for Janice

KrunchTime wrote:

What's all of this talk about scripts to install apps?  What's wrong with using apt-get or aptitude?

The scripts would just be a minor abstraction; the user could install various lists of packages without knowing all the package names and typing (or copy/pasting) the command.

KrunchTime wrote:

03/08/2014 Edit:  While I understand the desire for a lean and mean base install, don't forget that some of the "unneeded" apps might be useful when you need to run CrunchBang live.

Hence why we could have to two editions of CrunchBang: a full one and a lean one.

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#1397 2014-03-08 16:08:19

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Ideas for Janice

anonymous wrote:
KrunchTime wrote:

What's all of this talk about scripts to install apps?  What's wrong with using apt-get or aptitude?

The scripts would just be a minor abstraction; the user could install various lists of packages without knowing all the package names and typing (or copy/pasting) the command.

KrunchTime wrote:

03/08/2014 Edit:  While I understand the desire for a lean and mean base install, don't forget that some of the "unneeded" apps might be useful when you need to run CrunchBang live.

Hence why we could have to two editions of CrunchBang: a full one and a lean one.

Yes, that would be better. I myself would never use any install-scripts, as I like to handpick the packages and control the install myself. I could see that some people would benefit from it. But if people have to little skills to install apps themselves, they probably would be better off sticking by the default install anyway.


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#1398 2014-03-08 16:08:42

antisoup
New Member
Registered: 2014-03-06
Posts: 9

Re: Ideas for Janice

To Address how this might be different from a simple apt-get install:

I understand this is a major cultural shift for CrunchBang, but it is easy to imagine these being extended beyond just apt-get foo baz bar. If this extension happened, we should be able to decrease resources dedicated to support and also make crunch bang very powerful and friendly. Let me explain…

Imagine we have a tool that can fetch these scripts and a new user is having issues with wifi. In order to trouble shoot wifi, you might want any number of outputs from commands ran at the command line. You could ask the user to run the commands your self after you consulted the previous forum post that asked another user to run. Or you could ask them to run: app run wifi-troubleshooting and copy the url of the the paste bin to the forum thread. The application would automatically run those commands, save the output and load it up to web resource that all could access.

Now we've identified that this user is using some realtek wifi driver that needs to be jiggered with to make it work. Fortunately, we've already got a solution to that. Instead of linking to some forum post about it, which is 6 months old and people report it helped or it didn't, and asking have you tried this?  We point them to app run realtek8xxx which is the latest and best way the community has decided to fix the driver issue.

Let's now turn to the way we shape the way the GUI works. There are people who have absolutely beautiful desktops. Imagine a world where those desktops also sit in a repository. You find the one you want and you should be able to run the script that would then automatically make that happen on your desktop.

There will be some community work to do to establish how somethings are handled because of the issue of idempotence and not wanting to overwrite existing config. However, I see this as a huge win if we can figure out how to get it off the ground.

I'm willing to write the client to fetch and run these, as well as build the server to store these from. I'm also willing to get my hands dirty with some build scripts, but I have much less experience there.

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#1399 2014-03-08 17:54:56

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Ideas for Janice

@antisoup

You obviously haven`t fixed many wifi-issues. The best way the community has decided to fix the driver-issue? If I should listen to how the majority in this forums thinks that I should make my wifi work, it wouldn`t work, because I have a special revision of that chip, that doesn`t work with the "best way". It isn't possible to make decitions about the best way to solve anything.

It's a bad idea no matter how you look at it. An automated support-system sounds quite horrific. People wouldn't learn from it, and it would generate more issues than it solved. Then people might just as well use Windows or Mac who has such solutions. I get really annoyed when Windows thinks they have solutions to my issues, most of the times they run trough a lot of steps that hasn`t got anything to do with the  actual issue, and you always end up with a unfixed issue. The whole script is just an annoyance.

Beside, Linux is for the people that want the freedom to control every aspect of the install themselves. Free source code is what it's all about, and it's even worse to leave decitions about your system to a community, than it is to leave it to Microsoft or Apple, because let's face it, a linux-community consists of only of a few skilled people, and any kind of democracy would generate the worst solutions possible.

Last edited by ew (2014-03-08 17:56:27)


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#1400 2014-03-08 18:58:20

nore
#! Die Hard
From: Lakeland
Registered: 2009-11-28
Posts: 503

Re: Ideas for Janice

antisoup wrote:

Imagine a world where those desktops also sit in a repository. You find the one you want and you should be able to run the script that would then automatically make that happen on your desktop.

I remember time, when Linux was said to "put the fun back to computing", and that is how it felt, too. Sorry but a megastore full of readily chewn solutions sounds like taking the last of the fun away.

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