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#1 2013-06-11 03:03:33

KrunchTime
#! Die Hard
From: Not Where I Belong
Registered: 2012-03-02
Posts: 1,927

NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

Serious article, but there are some humorous parts.

'...just send a check made out to CASH to "P.O. Box Ufool, Suckerville Arizona 1D10T"'

http://lxle.net/index.php?id=articles&p … x-revealed

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#2 2013-06-11 04:47:59

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,338

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

This kind of thinking has also unfortunately made its way into Ubuntu, which, I feel, is the real reason behind, Unity, Mir, and all the other Ubuntu only projects that are currently happening. Funny how they pick the very things that you need to make use of their "free and open" systems making them essentially proprietary by those in-house key components. Clever but also really sh___y. You might as well say, thanks for all the hard work suckers, although not surprising really, when you invite in the devil, devilish things are going to happen, duh.

Off-topic (but trying desperately not to make this a Spider-Man thread):  Faust.  What more needs to be said here?

However, in Ubuntu's defense, I did not see them on the list of criminals. (thank god) I also didn't see Mozilla, Jitsi, and or any REAL opensource projects participating in info collecting on all its users. Which should lead everyone to a big realization. Which is, stop calling Google and or Android, Linux, it is not. Even Richard believes its fake free/opensource software. But also that actual free and opensource software is really the only option for any type of privacy.

Interesting that the writer still considers Ubuntu to be "real open source", despite all the proprietary software he mentioned in the preceding paragraph.  (EDIT:  By the way, by the writer's own logic, Ubuntu, with all its proprietary components, also shouldn't be called Linux.)  Also interesting that this appears on a website owned by a distro based on Ubuntu LTS.

Last edited by pvsage (2013-06-11 04:51:27)


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#3 2013-06-11 07:57:28

excollier
#! Member
Registered: 2013-03-18
Posts: 54

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

So, what is the answer? (I'm not really expecting an answer) I am using Google Chrome on #!, and other distros because it syncs so easily. Do I dump it? I use YouTube because it carries a lot of useful video demos for many subjects. Do I just not log in any more? I keep a Windows partition for i-Tunes. Do I get rid of the i-Pod and wipe Windows?
Seems we are at risk already, it might be too late......what's that noise, where's my foil hat?
Seriously though, I wonder what the solution is, use pure Debian? Even they have Chromium in the repos, and yes, I use Chromium on Debian too. I suppose some inconvenience might be worthwhile in the long term.
How did we ever get by without the internet?

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#4 2013-06-11 08:13:06

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

Which is, stop calling Google and or Android, Linux, it is not.

This is just silly. I may not like Google's business practices, but Android clearly *is* Linux. It's based on the Linux kernel, for heaven's sake, which is just about the only useful way of deciding whether something is Linux. If it stops being Linux because I disagree with its politics, Linux is meaningless...

EDIT: In fact, lots of the article is bloody stupid. Like calling Apple's use of MIT licensed code 'stealing'. It's not stealing if the owner gives you permission, dammit. And talking about Android apps natively running  on Linux boxen, when the reason is because no one has ported them from ARM, and no one would want to use them on a fullscreen computer, not because Android is 'not linux'

Also, arguing that the fact that Stallman believes an OS is not truly open source makes it not 'truly' Linux is absurd. Debian is not FSF approved, for f**k's sake.

EDIT 2: It's doubly stupid as their argument hinges on a link to a comment by Stallman to the effect that Android is Linux, just with non-free parts.

Last edited by joek (2013-06-11 08:23:08)

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#5 2013-06-11 08:35:26

uname
#! Junkie
Registered: 2013-03-15
Posts: 458

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

Nice article.

What is about Crunchbang? Crunchbang uses non-free software from Debian and what is about the source-code of

http://packages.crunchbang.org/waldorf/pool/main

Where can i find the source-code of the deb-files?
Where can i find the source-code of the #!-linux-kernel?
Where can i find the source code for building the live-CD?

Perhaps NSA produces Crunchbang Linux.

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#6 2013-06-11 10:03:59

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

This is the ranting of a angst-ridden teenager.  I can see how these points are trying to distill some kind of absolute truth from a few findings and then the author tries to wrap it up in a nice little package where "if you love FREEDOM, you'll love FOSS, but the 'MAN' don't want you to have that."  Nothing is ever this black and white in reality.

Google's motto is Don't be evil. unofficially.  That's like someone saying, "Don't go out and rape and kill."  It leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

"The Money" on the desktop market that doesn't want Linux to keep spreading the "freedom" was 17th in contributions to the kernel in 2012.  And while we're looking at authoritarian overlords, at least they have a sense of humor.

It sounds like some of this may actually be more of a market survival strategy in the long run, but one can only guess why 90% of the market would be looking outside their own work.

The very idea that something doesn't fit the FSF's idea of "free" makes it in bed with "Big Brother" is absurd in the highest degree.  This article seems better off as someone's facebook post than anything to be taken seriously.

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#7 2013-06-11 13:35:59

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

From what I have read the companies involved are denying any kind of voluntary participation.

Since the news broke, Apple, Google, and Facebook have all gone on the record. Apple told CNBC that it never heard of PRISM and did not grant the government such access and echoed the same sentiment to the Wall Street Journal. Facebook told The Next Web that it also does not provide federal authorities with direct access to its servers, and Google told the site that it ”does not have a ‘back door’ for the government to access private user data.”

If you believe them, the criticism should be squarely with the government.

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#8 2013-06-11 13:44:54

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,054

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

cchhrriiss121212 wrote:

If you believe them....

Only 3 beings you should ever believe - yourself, your reflection, and your shadow.
Everyone else, you treat like a hooker - never exchange more dna than necessary, regardless of how good they look.


Point & Squirt

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#9 2013-06-11 14:32:40

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

scandal reveals google is not like linux. ubuntu software is proprietary. ooooohkaaaayyyyy...

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#10 2013-06-11 14:43:20

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

gutterslob wrote:
cchhrriiss121212 wrote:

If you believe them....

Only 3 beings you should ever believe - yourself, your reflection, and your shadow.
Everyone else, you treat like a hooker - never exchange more dna than necessary, regardless of how good they look.

It's not that I think these mega-corps are trustworthy, but the answers they gave were flat out denial in this case. Had they all been in on this they would have said something more evasive or just a flat "No comment".

This is obviously a big story, and they know it will do them no favours to lie now and get called on it when this gets investigated.

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#11 2013-06-11 14:45:01

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,338

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

joek wrote:

Also, arguing that the fact that Stallman believes an OS is not truly open source makes it not 'truly' Linux is absurd. Debian is not FSF approved, for f**k's sake.

Stallmanism. roll

uname wrote:

Nice article.

What is about Crunchbang? Crunchbang uses non-free software from Debian and what is about the source-code of

http://packages.crunchbang.org/waldorf/pool/main

Where can i find the source-code of the deb-files?

Every .tar.gz file in that repo is source.

uname wrote:

Where can i find the source-code of the #!-linux-kernel?

There is no kernel package in the #! repository; #! uses the Debian build of the Linux kernel.  Source for the Debian kernel is in the Debian repos.

uname wrote:

Where can i find the source code for building the live-CD?

This is a valid question.  coremoninal has publicly stated, on several occasions, that he uses the DebianLive project to build the Live image, but his custom build script remains private.


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#12 2013-06-11 16:26:18

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

cchhrriiss121212 wrote:
gutterslob wrote:
cchhrriiss121212 wrote:

If you believe them....

Only 3 beings you should ever believe - yourself, your reflection, and your shadow.
Everyone else, you treat like a hooker - never exchange more dna than necessary, regardless of how good they look.

It's not that I think these mega-corps are trustworthy, but the answers they gave were flat out denial in this case. Had they all been in on this they would have said something more evasive or just a flat "No comment".

This is obviously a big story, and they know it will do them no favours to lie now and get called on it when this gets investigated.

On the other hand, I think Google's inability to protect private data would be even more worrying than their cooperation with the NSA. Either they cannot encryption, or the NSA have an efficient way to break asymmetric encryption. Either possibility having... worrying... implications...

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#13 2013-06-11 17:07:46

cliffmiller
#! Member
From: Oz
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 60

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

Kind of off-topic, but I asked this elsewhere and got mixed answers. Does PRISM affect me, as a non-american?


Stop, Dave.
Will you stop, Dave?
Stop, Dave.
I'm afraid.

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#14 2013-06-11 17:21:33

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,338

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

According to the NSA (and you know how much you can trust them roll ), if you call anyone in the US or your phone traffic goes through any US server/service, PRISM is mostly interested in non-Americans such as you. neutral


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#15 2013-06-11 17:53:44

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,941

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

Just out of interest, why did Google use Linux rather than BSD as a base?


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#16 2013-06-12 06:53:02

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

Good points, I was trying to say that Google isn't acting like most opensource community members and/or software projects/companies which is with relative innocence towards how they treat their users, and that Ubuntu seems to be heading in that direction as well by in housing everything...... I wish I had made that point better...


Interesting that the writer still considers Ubuntu to be "real open source", despite all the proprietary software he mentioned in the preceding paragraph.  (EDIT:  By the way, by the writer's own logic, Ubuntu, with all its proprietary components, also shouldn't be called Linux.)  Also interesting that this appears on a website owned by a distro based on Ubuntu LTS.

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#17 2013-06-12 07:12:32

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

DebianJoe wrote:

This is the ranting of a angst-ridden teenager.  I can see how these points are trying to distill some kind of absolute truth from a few findings and then the author tries to wrap it up in a nice little package where "if you love FREEDOM, you'll love FOSS, but the 'MAN' don't want you to have that."  Nothing is ever this black and white in reality.

I'm probably as old as you, and it is a ranting written quickly out of sheer anger over the news. This never happens to you? You weren't increbily upset about it? If not then I guess I would rather be a teenager because being apathetic never accomplishes anything. I do see some upsetting patterns, here and the last time I checked I don't need to consult you before expressing them.

I understand that the article was emotional, and thats because I've refused to become a human robot, that goes along to get along and or a corporate droid.

Google's motto is Don't be evil. unofficially.  That's like someone saying, "Don't go out and rape and kill."  It leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

You right but do no evil does imply that you don't screw you customer over, its like saying don't go out and rape and kill, so you decide to be a peeping tom that hurts people.   hmmmm i left room for interpretation. smile

"The Money" on the desktop market that doesn't want Linux to keep spreading the "freedom"

As if there is nothing to gain by being able to easily gather information through spyware (because no one is paying for it right?), or that there is no money in computer repair aka virus removal, or that there is no money being made from operating system sales, or overpriced lock in software schemes. I think that qualifies as "THE MONEY" more than implying that I'm referring to some sort of shadow evil reason. Although vendor lockin, spying and theiving peoples info probably could be consider evil.

The very idea that something doesn't fit the FSF's idea of "free" makes it in bed with "Big Brother" is absurd in the highest degree.  This article seems better off as someone's facebook post than anything to be taken seriously.

In the article I ask for someone to produce one FSF / Opensource project beside apple and google that is handing over all this info to the government and or gathering personal information on their users without them knowing it and selling it to whomever.
I'm still waiting, so until I receive a response I don't believe its absurd at all, go ahead prove me wrong ,,, name one.

Last edited by lxle (2013-06-12 09:04:08)

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#18 2013-06-12 07:17:48

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

excollier wrote:

Seriously though, I wonder what the solution is, use pure Debian?


Your right its a tough one, even my self righteous self can not avoid using everything that I find ethically compromised. I do try though as much as I can, if google chrome does something cool, i try to find a firefox extension to do the same thing, or I limit my time using chrome.   But your right its tough, however the solution really is, what we use and why we use it, and until enough people can put ethics over convenience and advertising, then its going to be a difficult thing to stop.

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#19 2013-06-12 07:21:38

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

intoCB wrote:

Just out of interest, why did Google use Linux rather than BSD as a base?

I think because it was easier for them to jump start development, remember apple bought NEXT, which already had a fully functional os running on BSD called NEXT OS...

Google didn't have this nor did they want to spend the time or money, I'm guessing of course, but sounds reasonable.

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#20 2013-06-12 07:32:29

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

This is just silly. I may not like Google's business practices, but Android clearly *is* Linux. It's based on the Linux kernel, for heaven's sake, which is just about the only useful way of deciding whether something is Linux. If it stops being Linux because I disagree with its politics, Linux is meaningless...

I was trying to make the point that google is not interested in being an upstanding community member with this type of behavior, and I believe that the FSF/Opensource philosophy is relevant, without it, you would not being using it right now, and by nature is a bit political when freedom and user rights are infringed.

In fact, lots of the article is bloody stupid. Like calling Apple's use of MIT licensed code 'stealing'. It's not stealing if the owner gives you permission, dammit.

The MIT license states that you don't have to share or contribute in anyway with the code you use, I wasn't speaking about criminal charges I was speaking about taking, even if its being handed out, when what I feel the motive is so you can be greedy and are not obligated to share with others is, to me at least, a "mind set on taking" not giving... and or stealing, perhaps i should have just said greedy. Point taken


And talking about Android apps natively running  on Linux boxen, when the reason is because no one has ported them from ARM, and no one would want to use them on a fullscreen computer, not because Android is 'not linux'

I think there are a ton of apps that I would like to run natively from andriod on my linux box, netflix comes to mind, all those games that are availabe, as well as most of the other apps that there aren't linux equivalents for at this moment.

It's doubly stupid as their argument hinges on a link to a comment by Stallman to the effect that Android is Linux, just with non-free parts.

I was simply referring to Stallman as another source who thinks the same about andriod, not that he says it, or implies it , so I must believe it. I simply must have worded it wrong and gave that impression I suppose, but that was not my intention.

Last edited by lxle (2013-06-12 07:48:17)

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#21 2013-06-12 07:45:57

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

lxle wrote:

In the article I ask for someone to produce one FSF / Opensource project beside apple and google that is handing over all this info to the government and or gathering personal information on their users without them knowing it and selling it to whomever.
I'm still waiting, so until I receive a response I don't believe its absurd at all, go ahead prove me wrong ,,, name one.

For the sake of carrying on this discussion in the most sensible manner I can come up with, we have to establish some kind of factual basis.

When you say "FSF/Opensource" I take that to mean "either" FSF or simply Open-Source.  The two things aren't very interconnected at all, so they really can't be grouped together like that.

Is Google "Opensource" now?  What's their algorithm for searches?  Have they turned that over to the general public yet?

If we're looking at simply opensource projects that are possibly sharing information with the government, I'll just leave this here for you to take into consideration.

And, yes, I've been mad.  I've blown up at things that I didn't have any control over, and I don't fault you personally for that.

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#22 2013-06-12 08:06:39

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

For the sake of carrying on this discussion in the most sensible manner I can come up with, we have to establish some kind of factual basis. When you say "FSF/Opensource" I take that to mean "either" FSF or simply Open-Source.  The two things aren't very interconnected at all, so they really can't be grouped together like that.

I group them together out of respect for both organizations. Its simply done not to ignore one and not the other. Simply courtesy.

Is Google "Opensource" now?  What's their algorithm for searches?  Have they turned that over to the general public yet?

their not opensource? Their entire operation runs on opensource software, andriod and chrome os is supposedly opensource, almost their entire staff uses opensource. I believe that puts them in the opensource community. Its kinda like working at the SPCA but you an animal abuser.

If we're looking at simply opensource projects that are possibly sharing information with the government, I'll just leave this here for you to take into consideration.

"Possibly" doesn't qualify when comparing to proven spying, and I also believe that if there were code in there that was spying, being opensource it would have been caught by now, just like mozilla caught the spyware laced phony mozilla browser that was produced by a company for governments... i provide a link in the article

And, yes, I've been mad.  I've blown up at things that I didn't have any control over, and I don't fault you personally for that.

Thanks for understanding.

Last edited by lxle (2013-06-12 08:22:02)

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#23 2013-06-12 08:46:47

lxle
Member
Registered: 2013-06-12
Posts: 12

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

zalew wrote:

scandal reveals google is not like linux. ubuntu software is proprietary. ooooohkaaaayyyyy...

Have you seen unity running on any other distro? (almost impossible to do) How many distros do you think will be able to use mir when its available? I have a feeling mir will be extremely ubuntu dependant.

The article is google is not "like" linux, meaning in their behavior, I have never worried about inappropriate behavior from the opensource/linux software/services that I use, if andriod/chromeos is truly "linux" then now i have to worry and thats why i think Google is not "like" linux. Bad choice of words I guess.,....

Last edited by lxle (2013-06-12 09:09:14)

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#24 2013-06-12 09:12:47

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,338

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

@lxle:  Thank you for expounding on your blog post here; I always consider the original blogger's voice important in any discussion of this nature, and yours is particularly welcome here in our little forum.  Thanks for chiming in!


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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2013-06-12 09:27:08

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: NSA Scandal Reveals Google Is Not Really Like Linux and Never Was

@lxle, I would first like to echo pvsage.  It's good to have a chance to clarify points with you.

I guess that my main complaint is mainly with the grouping of the FSF (which is a group) and opensource (which is a method more than an organization).  I understand that it's "out of respect," but something can be opensource without even coming close to meeting the standards for freedom that the FSF puts into place.

"Parts" of Google's operation is opensourced, but much of it is what would be called "trade secrets."

On September 25th of 2009, one of the Android community’s most prominent ‘modders,’ Steve Kondik, received a Cease and Desist letter from Google.  Steve Kondik had been distributing a ROM called Cyanogen, which was built from the Android framework.  The problem lay not in that Kondik was distributing Android, which was open source, but that he was distributing Google’s core, but proprietary, apps, Gmail, Google Maps, etc.  These apps were part of the “Google Experience” phones and were licensed through the phone manufacturers.  Therefore, while Cyanogen could be continued to be developed and distributed, Google’s apps would need to be removed and anyone who installed Cyanogen would be left without them.  That kind of control over proprietary software violates every idea that the FSF has every spouted.

Your article reads as though Google==Open Source==Free Software, and that's just not the case.

Last edited by DebianJoe (2013-06-12 09:45:52)

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