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#2201 2013-03-30 00:49:17

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

intoCB wrote:

Gnome 3 and Unity are indeed nice if your PC can handle them.

Yes, and I tried just the Gnome-shell with Crunchbang, and it was still fast. But when I downloaded the full Gnome 3 with all the apps and extras, then it was booting a bit slower. Approximately simmular to Ubuntu. But that was on hdd, now that I have ssd Ubuntu is booting very fast, and CB with Gnome 3 would probably boot just as fast.

I`m not sure if I want to do it though, because I`ve stripped away compton, conky and other startup items, and now CB`s boot time is so fast that it`s insane. It`s almost instant on, from coldboot... It`s kind of nice to have a light system besides Ubuntu, even though that`s also very fast. But who am I kidding? I`m not able to leave CB as it is:)))


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Be excellent to each other!

#2202 2013-03-30 05:42:26

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,086

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Unia wrote:
VastOne wrote:

^ Empirical data and sources please...  devil

I thought el_K and me are trusted members of this community..?  sad   kiss

This may be the only time in my life that I quote Ronald Reagan:  "Trust, but verify." (Hey, it's good enough advice to be a Russian proverb...)


I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#2203 2013-03-30 07:12:44

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

I generally run Squeeze for most of my programming needs...and you really can't argue against the stability there.  Dear Lord, it's old as dirt though.  Although, so far, the only things that have broken on Arch are things that I broke (bad syntax in .xinitrc for example,) but certainly nothing that was unrecoverable.  After my first boot I set up my wireless, made a new user, and immediately started messing with how it works.  I can't help myself.  I honestly think pretty highly of it for now.  We'll see how I feel after a few months of regular use.

As far as Ubuntu's stability is concerned....people use Ubuntu at work?  I thought that it was designed as baby's first gnu/linux so that those coming from M$ or Mac could get more comfortable.  Slap KDE on it, and it is probably the smoothest way to help make the transition.  My little girl (8-years old) uses Xubuntu on the laptop that she does homework and watches movies on, but I think that's the only *buntu I have anywhere.  I felt like it would be a nice way to introduce her to the world of GNU/Linux without her feeling overwhelmed...or eventually going back to school being like, "You plebeians should be running Gentoo." wink

Last edited by DebianJoe (2013-03-30 07:19:06)

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#2204 2013-03-30 16:53:18

ivanovnegro
Ivan #000000
From: unstable madness
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 5,423

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

El K on Arch, the world is moving fast. And what a transformation of arguments. big_smile

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#2205 2013-03-31 02:28:02

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

hinto wrote:

I have XFCE Mint on a p4 (with hyperthreading) and 1 gb of ram.  It's still snappy.  Granted I do have a 256 AGP card in it to help with graphics, but it's amazing to see the performance of Linux on it.
-Hinto

I don`t think that Linux Mint is snappy with any hardware. It`s the slowest OS I`ve ever tried, with the exception of Windows Vista. I`ve tried many versions of Linux Mint, xfce, mate, cinnamon, debian edition, you name it., They are all slow, heavy and extremely dull and boring.


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#2206 2013-03-31 02:33:32

mishle
#! CrunchBanger
From: Bitterroot Valley
Registered: 2010-07-20
Posts: 166

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

DebianJoe wrote:

"You plebeians should be running Gentoo." wink

Loved it thanks for the laugh.

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#2207 2013-03-31 05:14:31

rstrcogburn
CrunchRanger
From: New Mexico
Registered: 2010-06-12
Posts: 1,931
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

The only instability I've ever had in arch, gentoo stable with mixed testing, and freebsd was my tinkering.  Debian and fedora broke sometimes.   angel


That hawk just kept flying! -Ben Lilly

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#2208 2013-03-31 05:14:48

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 900
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Just returned to Crunchbang Waldorf after a meander through Fedora land... Its good to be home.  I'm sure it would've been fine but there were just some differences in configurations that I couldn't get my head around easily.  I've gone and learned things the Debian/#! way...

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#2209 2013-03-31 05:15:34

rstrcogburn
CrunchRanger
From: New Mexico
Registered: 2010-06-12
Posts: 1,931
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

I run Mac and some Ubuntu VM these days.  Yea I'm Satan.


That hawk just kept flying! -Ben Lilly

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#2210 2013-03-31 06:38:34

stolid
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2012-09-06
Posts: 206

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Since a couple days ago, I've been running Crunchbang in a fullscreen VM on Windows 7. Does that make me a bad person? ops I was rebooting all the time to play video games (I'd stick to steam on Linux if I had an nvidia card, but I have two AMD cards in crossfire...), so I might as well just run CB in a VM and avoid the reboots and terrible video card fan profiles. hmm On the plus side, I have access to VirtualBox's snapshotting and cloning features. All my media is stored on a computer I use as a NAS, so between that and Dropbox, accessing my music and files and such is easy from any computer/VM. One of these days I'd like to reverse things by using VGA passthrough in KVM to a Windows VM (or just game entirely on Linux but for that I'd like to have an nvidia card). We'll see...

My NAS computer is running Linux Mint XFCE (overkill, it used to be headless but I may end up using it as a workstation of sorts in the near future). It's running ZFSonLinux, samba, and Folding@Home currently.


Registered Linux User #555399
crunchbox:     Phenom II X6 1055T | 8GB RAM | OCZ Vertex 4 128GB | Radeon 7870XT | Win7 / #! 11 (i3 WM)
lambdacore:     4x Opteron 8431 | 16GB RAM | 2x1TB mirrored (ZFSoL) | Debian 7 (headless)
crunchtop:     Acer Aspire 1410 11.6" | 2GB RAM | Crucial M4 128GB | #! 11 (i3 WM)

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#2211 2013-03-31 08:19:14

DapperMe17
#! CrunchBanger
From: Todd's Gang
Registered: 2012-10-19
Posts: 219

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Bridge Linux is a nice rolling spin of Archbang in XFCE.

The installer is a change of pace, but very easy and straightforward. It's a little easier (on the eyes) to set your partitions up ahead of time with GParted, but not necessary.

Package management is via pacman or packer. yaourt-gui (graphical frontend for pacman) available in the repo and works wonderfully. Once you quickly familiarize yourself with pacman/packer/yaourt-gui management, it performs equally as admirably as apt/synaptic. GPG signed packages, and you also have the AUR repo available for an "almost" infinite selection of user packages.

Includes a read-me file for initial setup, then a first start boot script (very similar to #!).

Quick boots/shutdown, lean and the snappy performance of Arch.

There's also a friendly forum like #! as well as the Arch wiki.

There's never a replacement for #! angel...but if your searching out an out-of-the-box XFCE spin with a twist, you might enjoy the test drive.

cool

Last edited by DapperMe17 (2013-03-31 08:29:32)

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#2212 2013-03-31 10:39:54

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

DapperMe17 wrote:

Bridge Linux is a nice rolling spin of Archbang in XFCE.

The installer is a change of pace, but very easy and straightforward. It's a little easier (on the eyes) to set your partitions up ahead of time with GParted, but not necessary.

Other than the ease of installation, what benefit would Archbang -openbox +XFCE have over just Arch with XFCE?  All of the mico-distros confuse me with how close they all are.  I've wondered this about the Ubuntu variants as well.  Why a whole release for what is minimal change?  I haven't used Arch Bang, so please excuse my ignorance on the subject.  If Archbang has made the process of installation far more user friendly, then I totally understand.

{rant}I had a guy that I work with try to sell me on the concept of Xubuntu being superior to all other GNU/Linux distros.  I asked him what made it so great and he proceeded to rant and rave about the DE.  I explained that with a Debian install, you could do the exact same thing by typing "desktop=xfce" at the boot prompt during install.  I wasn't trying to win anyone over (I mean, I always want Ubuntu users to try out different things, as they will generally grow out of the *buntu's if given the chance, but I digress), but rather to explain that in a modular system these things can be picked apart and made to exactly what you need/want without needing to be totally packaged together.  Putting XFCE on Arch doesn't make it Xrch, and XFCE on Debian doesn't make it Xebian.{/rant}

Last edited by DebianJoe (2013-03-31 10:41:40)

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#2213 2013-03-31 12:18:03

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

DebianJoe wrote:

{rant}I had a guy that I work with try to sell me on the concept of Xubuntu being superior to all other GNU/Linux distros.  I asked him what made it so great and he proceeded to rant and rave about the DE.  I explained that with a Debian install, you could do the exact same thing by typing "desktop=xfce" at the boot prompt during install.  I wasn't trying to win anyone over (I mean, I always want Ubuntu users to try out different things, as they will generally grow out of the *buntu's if given the chance, but I digress), but rather to explain that in a modular system these things can be picked apart and made to exactly what you need/want without needing to be totally packaged together.  Putting XFCE on Arch doesn't make it Xrch, and XFCE on Debian doesn't make it Xebian.{/rant}

Of course you are correct, but Xubuntu is more accessible to a general user, than some debian distro with Xfce or Arch for that mather. Arch is advanced even for medium skilled linux-users that haven`t tried Arch before. But the biggest advantage that any "buntu"-distro has over debian and arch, is that "Ubuntu" makes it really easy to use non-free software and drivers. Simple and basic things like wifi can be a struggle in Debian and Arch, and nowadays there is hardly anyone that use cabled network, or even has a lan-cable lying around. So when a new regular user tries Debian or Arch, they get instantly turned off by the fact that wifi isn`t working, and that they have issues with nvidia or intel graphics drivers...

It would help the Debian-image a lot, by simply ensuring that propriarity drivers gets installed and activated by default, or at least that the installation asks if you want to activate it. Some debian-distros does it halfway, letting you activate and connect to propriarity wifi-drivers from the live-cd or during installation, but when the installation is finished, then it`s suddenly not activated...

Take my b43xx-issues, it`s working by default in every "buntu"-distro, but not a single Debian distro has managed to do the same. I can fully understand that a regular pc-user isn`t interested in struggling just to have the most basic things working for them, and a working wifi-connection  is certainly a must for most people. I`m handling it myself, because I absolutely want to use Debian, but for most people it isn`t important what kind of linux they use. The only thing that mathers is that it works, and lets face it, modern people aren`t interested in compiling stuff themselves, at least not for basic stuff. That just has to work, right out of the box.

Debian has something to learn from Ubuntu here, namely making it easy to use for a normal person, but still having the flexibilty to be tweaked and modified by the more advanced linux users. Debian fails on the first part, if you haven`t got the most linux-friendly hardware:)


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#2214 2013-03-31 12:43:52

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,106

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

ew: my wifi works out the box on Arch, on a few machines, and wifi-menu makes it easier to set up during installation or post-installation.

You don't seem to understand that if Debian came with non-freeware prepackaged for wifi it would cease to be Debian and become Ubuntu or something. Your posts often express your desire to have everything ready to go- but this negates the necessary differences between approaches and that Debian will always be less ready to go than Ubuntu or a derivative downstream.

Last edited by dura (2013-03-31 12:49:47)

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#2215 2013-03-31 12:44:08

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

ew wrote:

Take my b43xx-issues, it`s working by default in every "buntu"-distro, but not a single Debian distro has managed to do the same. I can fully understand that a regular pc-user isn`t interested in struggling just to have the most basic things working for them, and a working wifi-connection  is certainly a must for most people. I`m handling it myself, because I absolutely want to use Debian, but for most people it isn`t important what kind of linux they use. The only thing that mathers is that it works, and lets face it, modern people aren`t interested in compiling stuff themselves, at least not for basic stuff. That just has to work, right out of the box.

Having dealt with both b43xx and Intel 4500m issues, I can certainly sympathize.  On the other hand, X/K/Ed/Ubuntu at around 11.10 had major issues with Intel integrated chipsets as well, where as Squeeze (being stuck in the older kernel for an extended time) did not.

I would agree that the use of proprietary drivers should be something that is assumed until you disable them for yourself.  I imagine that if you know who RMS and the FSF are, then you can decide how free you want to be, and if you don't care...well, you want everything to work.

I did also have a friend who dropped Debian onto a computer using a DVD and without network on install.  He was very frustrated with aptitude not working after networking was set up.  I asked if he had uncommented the repo lines, and he simply said, "Who knows to do that?"  I do agree that this is a lot of headache that most people aren't willing to deal with.

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#2216 2013-03-31 12:51:30

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,106

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Then they can just use a derivative of Devian that has proprietary prepackaged.

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#2217 2013-03-31 16:57:35

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,906

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Re Xubuntu and Debian Xfce: Distrowatch did some benchmarking a couple of years back and their conclusion was that Debian Xfce performed better.

"Old" distros are underrated. This is being written from a crunking old 32-bit laptop running CentOS 6.4 Xfce (via EPEL) and I have NetBeans 7.3 i.e. the latest version.


$ cat */*

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#2218 2013-03-31 17:20:22

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

dura wrote:

ew: my wifi works out the box on Arch, on a few machines, and wifi-menu makes it easier to set up during installation or post-installation.

You don't seem to understand that if Debian came with non-freeware prepackaged for wifi it would cease to be Debian and become Ubuntu or something. Your posts often express your desire to have everything ready to go- but this negates the necessary differences between approaches and that Debian will always be less ready to go than Ubuntu or a derivative downstream.

You misunderstand me. I simply point out why Debian or Arch never can be a OS for the average pc-user, while Ubuntu have the potential to do just that. The reason why I use Debian is quite the opposite. I want to have to configure things to make it work. I just think that wifi is so fundamental that Debian could do an exeption to their policy. As I said, the world has gone wireless, and providing people with only a cabled network connection is totally pointless. At least you should think that they would intensify the work with opensource wifi drivers, at least for the most common wificards, like b43xx and many realtek cards...

But it`s no problem for me. I have fixed my wifi hundreds of times now, with many distros and after almost every kernel upgrade, so for me it`s nl longer a problem. I have a ralink usb-stick that provides me with wifi right out of the box with every distro, and I use that stick to be connected while I fix my internal wifi card. But it was a problem before I got that stick. Stretching cables from the basement and up to my livingroom, or sitting down in the basement to be cabled to the router in order to fix wifi is no fun at all, especially not when you are distrohopping and need to do this quite often. There are days  when I install 3-4 distros, and then this becomes a real issue. It doesn`t help that it`s easy to fix, when you have to do it so frequently, then it becomes a real problem.

I haven`t tried Arch, but I tried Archbang, and had no problems installing it, and no problem getting wifi to work. But because I`ve only started with linux not so long ago, I didn`t like to have to relate to pacman. I still have plenty to learn in Debian, and don`t see any sense in learning new commands and dealing with pacman..., when there really isn`t any advantage using Arch. It`s much better to focus on a few directions in linux, learning them properly, than learning a little bit about everything, but never fully getting there with anything:)

I just got a couple of teens interested in Linux, by introducing them to Ubuntu and Unity. Now they are contacting me all the time on chat with questions to help them installing and configure Ubuntu for their buddies again. "Uncle, where did you find that handy little extra menu, how did you get spotify for linux, and so on..."  I could sell Ubuntu to those teens, but I never could have sold Debian or Arch as starting distros. Besides, a polished Unity or Gnome3 enviroment is appealing to the youngsters. They think it looks cool, and that is very important to that age-group smile


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#2219 2013-03-31 17:23:04

ivanovnegro
Ivan #000000
From: unstable madness
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 5,423

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

DebianJoe wrote:

{rant}at your rant{/rant}

What is then Crunchbang? What are you doing here man? devil Put Openbox on Debian for yourself.

ew wrote:

Debian has something to learn from Ubuntu here, namely making it easy to use for a normal person, but still having the flexibilty to be tweaked and modified by the more advanced linux users. Debian fails on the first part, if you haven`t got the most linux-friendly hardware:)

I am not sure why you still insist to use Debian. All the things you describe are features of Debian. devil Get yourself a fastfood distro and be happy. cool

Ubuntu is for the average Joe and it comes with prop stuff, it is also a commercial distro with tons of noob friendly things for you and your kids. Debian is a bit different, it tries to be 100% free and to give you all the free software you can find in the universe.
Both approaches have its advantages and disadvantages, choose your poison.

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#2220 2013-03-31 17:24:45

intoCB
Scatweasel
Registered: 2012-10-25
Posts: 1,906

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Why is Debian always mentioned in the same breath as Arch? Admittedly, the general political views of both groups are likely to be somewhat similar but the level of complexity and the number of available packages for the two systems are totally different.

I could set up Debian for my dog but I know with Arch he'd break something sooner or later. You know what dogs are like.


$ cat */*

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#2221 2013-03-31 18:18:13

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

@Ivanovnegro

I run OB/Tint2 on Debian Squeeze.  I actually don't have #! currently installed on anything, but having used it previously, what works for me will work for pretty much anyone on Statler.  I'm here for the free cookies and coffee every Tuesday. wink

I mention Arch with Debian because they're the 2 distros that I am currently using on different systems.

EDIT:  Seriously, I'm here because I enjoy the community as a whole.  I tried #!, and it was critical in some of my choices for how I currently run Debby.  I would probably have not given tint2 the same love if I didn't have the experience that crunchbang gave me.  Please don't mistake my ramblings for knocking crunchbang.  Many people would never know about the beauty of a lean system if not for these little variations.  Perhaps I just answered my own rant. hmm

Last edited by DebianJoe (2013-03-31 18:36:01)

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#2222 2013-03-31 18:56:43

ivanovnegro
Ivan #000000
From: unstable madness
Registered: 2011-06-02
Posts: 5,423

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

^ Ah, sorry DebianJoe. big_smile Missed that you are a Debian user just like me. I personally cannot stand Openbox.  devil

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#2223 2013-03-31 19:10:41

cortman
#! CrunchBanger
From: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Registered: 2012-03-15
Posts: 128

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

ew wrote:

I could sell Ubuntu to those teens, but I never could have sold Debian or Arch as starting distros. Besides, a polished Unity or Gnome3 enviroment is appealing to the youngsters.

I think this just proves that it's really a moot point to argue- there is a place for Ubuntu in the GNU/Linux world (admittedly, without the personal search data harvesting) and there is a place for Debian and Arch and Slackware and every other major distro and spinoff. When a person decides to commit to learning a few shortcuts and how a UI operates, they'll benefit from the speed and intuitiveness that a WM such as Openbox, dwm, or Awesome can provide. When they get curious and more interested in the workings of a system than the surface of it, they'll move to Debian or Arch or any other of the more "advanced" distros.
Such as been my journey, anyway.


Copy.com offers 15 GB free cloud storage plus 5 GB extra for both of us when you use my my referral link. smile

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#2224 2013-03-31 20:05:41

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

ivanovnegro wrote:
DebianJoe wrote:

{rant}at your rant{/rant}

What is then Crunchbang? What are you doing here man? devil Put Openbox on Debian for yourself.

ew wrote:

Debian has something to learn from Ubuntu here, namely making it easy to use for a normal person, but still having the flexibilty to be tweaked and modified by the more advanced linux users. Debian fails on the first part, if you haven`t got the most linux-friendly hardware:)

I am not sure why you still insist to use Debian. All the things you describe are features of Debian. devil Get yourself a fastfood distro and be happy. cool

Ubuntu is for the average Joe and it comes with prop stuff, it is also a commercial distro with tons of noob friendly things for you and your kids. Debian is a bit different, it tries to be 100% free and to give you all the free software you can find in the universe.
Both approaches have its advantages and disadvantages, choose your poison.

Yes, but then we agree. And that`s fine, as long as Debian doesn`t aspire to be a choice for the average Joe. I`m here because I`m not quite normal, as soon as anything works perfectly I loose interest and move on. That`s why I find Windows and Ubuntu quite boring. But I`m interested in computing because I`m interested in the technical stuff, unlike the average Joe that is mostly interested in using the computer for facebook, twitter, instagram, youtube, netflicks, and gaming. They couldn`t care less about the technical stuff behind it. Either it works, or it doesn`t.

Debian is my choice of flavour, I like it,  but I`m not so blind that I can not see that Ubuntu is better for most people. But Debian would still be geeky enough if it was a bit better with common wifi-cards. Not because it`s a problem to fix it, but because it`s making it a bit more work to be a distrohopper, and fixing wifi isn`t especially exiting when you have done exactly the same hundreds of times before. It isn`t challenging at all, it`s just a boring task:)


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#2225 2013-03-31 20:10:10

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Distro-hoppers Anonymous

Anybody hopping at all here or is it just a rant thread now?


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