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#1 2011-01-26 08:32:16

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Reversions

I will be performing some reversions for the next build. These changes should not negatively affect anyone.

Firstly, I will be removing the Iceweasel 4.0 Beta 9 packages and their dependencies. Thank you to everyone who has helped with the testing. The Iceweasel Beta is shaping up nicely, but currently lacks any l10n packages, also the dependencies having been causing problems for a few users. If requested, I will create a separate repository for future updates to experimental Mozilla packages.

Secondly, the next builds will revert to using the debian-installer. I think it was important to give the graphical installer a trial and thank you to everybody who provided feedback. As many people will be aware, the graphical-installer is currently lacking a few features, which makes the d-i the best tool for the job. Also, I have been working to make the d-i work in gui mode, which I am hoping will make it more user friendly to users who have not experienced a text installer.

Lastly, if I have learnt anything in the past few weeks, it is that users tend to be very loyal to their chosen web browsers, and that a certain proportion of users mistrust branded software. Therefore, Chromium will become the default WWW browser, replacing Google Chrome. I am positive that Chromium will not be everyone's favourite browser, but I think it is currently the best option for CrunchBang at the moment. Besides, it is not a huge deal for people to change it.

If you have any concerns about any of the above, please do not hesitate to comment.

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#2 2011-01-26 08:56:52

ali
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2010-05-31
Posts: 1,035

Re: Reversions

i was quite happy with the graphical installer since my machine didn't want to install #! from a usb with the debian installer, will you fix that?
also chromium doesn't work well with openbox, if you download something and want to open it chromium will act all strange, the only fix i know for that is to replace the /usr/bin launcher with a script that does

export DE=xfce && chromium-browser.old

maybe you could get it to work without that somehow

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#3 2011-01-26 09:06:36

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

ali wrote:

i was quite happy with the graphical installer since my machine didn't want to install #! from a usb with the debian installer, will you fix that?

Recent versions of the d-i have improved in this respect. I have installed many tests over the last few days via USB and I have not experienced this problem.

also chromium doesn't work well with openbox, if you download something and want to open it chromium will act all strange, the only fix i know for that is to replace the /usr/bin launcher with a script that does

export DE=xfce && chromium-browser.old

maybe you could get it to work without that somehow

I cannot replicate any errors with this, it seems to be working fine on my system.

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#4 2011-01-26 09:17:53

ali
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2010-05-31
Posts: 1,035

Re: Reversions

you're right, chromium-browser seams to be working now, strange since just few weeks ago it didn't work
i had this problem
https://answers.launchpad.net/chromium- … tion/98720
http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic … tegration/

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#5 2011-01-26 10:06:26

Sergio17771
#! Member
Registered: 2009-06-21
Posts: 88

Re: Reversions

While I don't use chrome or chromium, IMHO choosing chromium over google chrome is the right way(good for you man).
How about a lite edition...:D

Thanks alot and keep the good work

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#6 2011-01-26 10:56:22

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

I will be performing some reversions for the next build.

sigh

corenominal wrote:

Therefore, Chromium will become the default WWW browser, replacing Google Chrome.

double sigh

corenominal wrote:

If you have any concerns about any of the above, please do not hesitate to comment.

triple sigh
--------------------------
This is my initial reaction. I'll provide some more meaningful feedback later smile

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#7 2011-01-26 10:58:13

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

omns wrote:

This is my initial reaction. I'll provide some more meaningful feedback later smile

I will look forward to it. smile

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#8 2011-01-26 12:01:30

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 12,086

Re: Reversions

I, for one, appreciate the rollback to the stable release of Iceweasel.  While Iceweasel 4 beta9 is very pretty and relatively fast, I don't see anything there to recommend it over the version in the Squeeze repo.

The switch back to the Debian Installer should be very welcome to those of us who like to set a few alternate mount options during install; I'm sure the expert install has even more options to recommend it over the Mint installer.

As for Chrome vs. Chromium...I'm still a Mozilla fan. neutral

One thing I liked about the Mint installer was it saved keyboard preferences properly for me.  Have you had a chance to address the keyboard issue with the text installer?


I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#9 2011-01-26 12:02:24

jotapesse
#! Junkie
From: Algarve, Portugal
Registered: 2009-02-07
Posts: 377

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

I will be performing some reversions for the next build. These changes should not negatively affect anyone.

Secondly, the next builds will revert to using the debian-installer. I think it was important to give the graphical installer a trial and thank you to everybody who provided feedback. As many people will be aware, the graphical-installer is currently lacking a few features, which makes the d-i the best tool for the job. Also, I have been working to make the d-i work in gui mode, which I am hoping will make it more user friendly to users who have not experienced a text installer.

Hum... I would encourage the trend to graphical installer. It's not that the text doesn't work, it does. But graphical it's the way to go, future-wise. I'm sure that current quirks will be ironed out in future versions. Until it gets there up to par you could perhaps offer both so we could choose which way to install.

Lastly, if I have learnt anything in the past few weeks, it is that users tend to be very loyal to their chosen web browsers, and that a certain proportion of users mistrust branded software. Therefore, Chromium will become the default WWW browser, replacing Google Chrome. I am positive that Chromium will not be everyone's favourite browser, but I think it is currently the best option for CrunchBang at the moment. Besides, it is not a huge deal for people to change it.

Well, what is "branded" these days? Everything is branded, we just tend to like more one brand than the other. Having that said, I used both Chrome and Chromium and I recommend both equally. I've traded chromium for chrome because I felt that chrome would have extra google stability and bugs ironed out. I currently use chrome development without any issues. One may understand better their differences on this article. Either way, I prefer them to any other browser.

Last edited by jotapesse (2011-01-26 12:06:28)


On an ASRock VisionX 321B, Asus EeeBoxPC 1501P and EeePC 1000H with Debian Sid/Experimental Xfce 4.10 Linux
Outdated How to: Install Xfce 4.10 with upgraded Apps and Plugins

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#10 2011-01-26 12:05:23

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

pvsage wrote:

One thing I liked about the Mint installer was it saved keyboard preferences properly for me.  Have you had a chance to address the keyboard issue with the text installer?

Yes, this is fixed. Also, the non-free firmware questions for network devices should also be fixed. smile

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#11 2011-01-26 13:37:10

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,920

Re: Reversions

Great news, I found the graphical installer somewhat lacking. smile


/hugged

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#12 2011-01-26 14:23:43

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: Reversions

Overall these seem like some good choices, and I support the inclusion of open software over closed. I haven't mentioned it before but I want to thank you for the attention to detail and the consideration for the users in your distro, Philip. smile

Would you consider including Iceweasel 3.6 in the Statler repo? It is a stable release and has a few improvements over the somewhat outdated version in Squeeze. Unlike switching between Chrome/Chromium this is something that is more complex to install, and therefore will be better implemented at the maintainer level.

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#13 2011-01-26 14:42:31

Hanna
Conky Queen
From: Finland
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 759

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

If requested, I will create a separate repository for future updates to experimental Mozilla packages.

I'd be very happy about this, because I like the iceweasel 4 beta quite a lot.


HANNA (without "h" in the end) likes green and #! smile
Also know as ultraturquoise online / #! last.fm / #! DeviantART / U

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#14 2011-01-26 14:50:06

SuperOscar
Member
From: Joensuu, Finland
Registered: 2010-09-30
Posts: 29
Website

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

The Iceweasel Beta is shaping up nicely, but currently lacks any l10n packages, also the dependencies having been causing problems for a few users.

Thank you! I still mostly use Firefox/IceWeasel because of the many plugins I’ve grown accustomed to, and lacking l10n was a pain in the a***.

Therefore, Chromium will become the default WWW browser, replacing Google Chrome.

I think this is just as it should be. Chrome and Chromium are both more suitable for mini laptops – a real “market segment” for #! if any – than Firefox, and out of those two, the community-driven Chromium fits more nicely to the Debian base.


My armada: Arch (desktop, test machine), Debian GNU/Linux 6.0 (laptop, netbook, server), Mythbuntu 11.04 (HTPC), Windows 7 Ultimate (test machine)

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#15 2011-01-26 17:17:39

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

If requested, I will create a separate repository for future updates to experimental Mozilla packages.

A separate repo for this would be great. As Firefox/iceweasel is not my main browser i had no issue with it being in the main repo. As long as I can still play  it is all good smile

corenominal wrote:

Secondly, the next builds will revert to using the debian-installer.

My guess will be that as soon as you do this the forums will be flooded with requests for a LMDE like installer again. I like the way this installer is developing and thought it was kind of edgy to include it. Maybe future versions will warrant  a change back although I believe its shortcomings are relatively minor. I guess you're in a no win situation with this one.

corenominal wrote:

Chromium will become the default WWW browser

I thought the concerns about Chrome were FUD http://corenominal.org/2011/01/15/google-chrome-fud/

I'd suggest just moving back to a later (3.6) release of iceweasel or Firefox and then package up the 4 release when it is available. The Chrome/chromium debate seems to cause to much angst and mozilla is a safe fallback.

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#16 2011-01-26 18:43:38

#1936
#! CrunchBanger
Registered: 2009-05-15
Posts: 125

Re: Reversions

as to me i'd say overall i tend to agree with the changes, particularly having chromium over chrome (personally for me doesn't change much as i'm a somewhat loyalist of iceweasel/firefox and all the 4.0b* have been working perfectly for me). still, whoever still wants iceweasel 4.0, they can always pull the builds from http://mozilla.debian.net/ (adding momentarily the experimental repo just to get iceweasel will resolve the dependencies issues)

as for the installer, whichever way you prefer is fine for me...

keep up the great work, thanks!

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#17 2011-01-26 18:52:00

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

omns wrote:
corenominal wrote:

Secondly, the next builds will revert to using the debian-installer.

My guess will be that as soon as you do this the forums will be flooded with requests for a LMDE like installer again. I like the way this installer is developing and thought it was kind of edgy to include it. Maybe future versions will warrant  a change back although I believe its shortcomings are relatively minor. I guess you're in a no win situation with this one.

I think that ikey and Clement have done a great job with the graphical installer and I think it was important to give it a trial. For the majority of cases, I think the installer works well; however, I believe the d-i remains the better option. It is currently more versatile and can be used on older systems. Also, as mentioned before, I have put some work into making the graphical d-i work and I have given it preference over the text installer -- hopefully this will go some way to satisfying the need for a graphical installer.

omns wrote:
corenominal wrote:

Chromium will become the default WWW browser

I thought the concerns about Chrome were FUD http://corenominal.org/2011/01/15/google-chrome-fud/

I do think there is an awful lot of FUD surrounding Google and its products. I also appreciate why this might be and I am willing to compromise. As I see it, there really is not a huge difference between Chrome and Chromium, so it is not a big compromise on my part. smile

omns wrote:

I'd suggest just moving back to a later (3.6) release of iceweasel or Firefox and then package up the 4 release when it is available. The Chrome/chromium debate seems to cause to much angst and mozilla is a safe fallback.

I am pretty sure Iceweasel 3.6 will be in the backport repositories quite soon after Squeeze is released. I am not sure if 4.0 will follow, I think it will probably stay in experimental for a while. I am interested to know how others would handle the Mozilla packages.

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#18 2011-01-26 18:55:46

hhh
Caught in the Vortex
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 1,889

Re: Reversions

@corenominal, I wanted to thank you again for making the Iceweasel beta available, you really saved me some headaches I was having with the installation. I've experienced almost no glitches with it, certainly less than I was seeing in Iceweasel 3.5.

re: browser loyalty, for me it's an issue of ease of use, or a lack of ease in transitioning to another browser. As I've been using Firefox since 2004, other browsers seem completely alien to me (my avatar is derived from the original Phoenix theme, which I've been maintaining for a few years now...
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/user/7120/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo … /versions/ ). It's bad enough that I have to retrain my muscle memory from one major release of Fx to the next, learning the ins and outs of another browser doesn't make any sense to me when Firefox is fast, flexible/extensible, feature rich and has a great support forum in forums.mozillazine.org.

Again, thanks!

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#19 2011-01-26 18:56:24

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

I have put some work into making the graphical d-i work and I have given it preference over the text installer

A couple of things. I assume the text installer will still be an option. Have you CrunchBangified the GUI installer?

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#20 2011-01-26 18:58:40

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Reversions

corenominal wrote:

Secondly, the next builds will revert to using the debian-installer.

Yay!

corenominal wrote:

Lastly, if I have learnt anything in the past few weeks, it is that users tend to be very loyal to their chosen web browsers, and that a certain proportion of users mistrust branded software. Therefore, Chromium will become the default WWW browser, replacing Google Chrome.

I hope you will package the stable v8 and not unstable v9.

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#21 2011-01-26 19:03:58

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

omns wrote:
corenominal wrote:

I have put some work into making the graphical d-i work and I have given it preference over the text installer

A couple of things. I assume the text installer will still be an option. Have you CrunchBangified the GUI installer?

Yes and yes. smile

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#22 2011-01-26 19:08:34

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

anonymous wrote:
corenominal wrote:

Lastly, if I have learnt anything in the past few weeks, it is that users tend to be very loyal to their chosen web browsers, and that a certain proportion of users mistrust branded software. Therefore, Chromium will become the default WWW browser, replacing Google Chrome.

I hope you will package the stable v8 and not unstable v9.

At the moment I have gone for v9. Both bobobex and I have been using it and we have not noticed any real problems. We both experienced the Identi.ca crashes, but we experienced those with the stable v8 and we fixed it by turning off geolocation tracking. Can I ask, why the preference for v8?

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#23 2011-01-26 19:11:10

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,057
Website

Re: Reversions

hhh wrote:

@corenominal, I wanted to thank you again for making the Iceweasel beta available, you really saved me some headaches I was having with the installation. I've experienced almost no glitches with it, certainly less than I was seeing in Iceweasel 3.5.

No problem. It has been requested that the Iceweasel 4.0 packages and their dependencies be placed in a separate repository. I will do this and publish the details before the rollback.

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#24 2011-01-26 19:11:54

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,418

Re: Reversions

Although Arch Linux is a bleeding edge distro, it generally does not go so far as to use betas and alphas. And I personally avoid using alpha/beta software as well (#! being an exception tongue).

If Chromium 9 is working as well as you say however, I will have no objections to you including it.

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2011-01-26 19:45:46

benj1
Wiki Wizard
From: Yorkshire, England
Registered: 2009-09-05
Posts: 1,084

Re: Reversions

RE installers

I have to say I didn't have any problems with the graphical installer, having said that I did partition with gparted in advance and did have to momentarily pause before realising I had to right click to select mount points, both of these are pretty easy to fix (script to lauch gparted before install, and a note detailing right click options, we have the source right smile), from what I've read they seem to be the major problems.

I would have thought the gui installer would be sufficient for the majority of users, although in light of there being demand for the text installer wouldn't the best balance be to include both installers ? (is that possible?), personally I prefer using a gui installer it give a more professional 'finish' and also text installers worry me (they seem more unixy, in a 'the user is always right', 'rm -rf /' kind of way), but I could be completely alone on that point roll.


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