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#1 2012-09-03 02:35:47

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

I mean, since we're no longer trying to keep the size of the image under 700MiB anyway, why not include the headers for the kernel in case somebody needs to install a binary, especially for something like wifi?  Chances are, most of us who have problematic wireless chipsets are going to have a local copy of the binary, but might have difficulty getting the right headers.


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#2 2012-09-03 07:32:23

mynis01
#! Die Hard
From: 127.0.0.1
Registered: 2010-07-02
Posts: 1,929

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

NVidia drivers and virtualbox require headers too iirc.

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#3 2012-09-03 10:26:27

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,037
Website

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

An interesting suggestion. I will definitely keep an eye on this thread smile

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#4 2012-09-03 12:20:22

greywolf
Member
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2011-02-28
Posts: 38

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

I would support including the headers for the installed kernel in the default install. I would also suggest adding "module-assistant" package in the install.

Once I find an Nvidia driver and kernel combination that works well on my hardware I do not like to update/change them unless I have to. I therefore, tend towards always using the smxi/sgfxi scripts for driver and kernel setup rather than using dkms from Debian.

The rubbishy 290.40 Nvidia drivers for example that broke dozens of machines I support when dkms updated them from working versions.

This smxi method always requires the kernel headers and the module-assistant programs to be present.

Thanks for considering it.

Greywolf.


Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
it's about learning to dance in the rain.

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#5 2012-09-03 12:38:17

Vuoristoneuvos
Member
Registered: 2010-03-07
Posts: 28

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

I don't see the real benefit.

pvsage wrote:

...in case somebody needs to install a binary, especially for something like wifi?

In this case, that person is already installing something extra. Might as well install the kernel headers while he's at it.

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#6 2012-09-03 13:19:32

VDP76
#! Bean Roaster
Registered: 2012-04-12
Posts: 798

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

I think pvsage's idea is good! Maybe it would be nice to have the option to install headers and module-assistant as part of cb-welcome scripts... smile

Last edited by VDP76 (2012-09-03 13:22:07)


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#7 2012-09-03 14:51:08

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Vuoristoneuvos wrote:

I don't see the real benefit.

pvsage wrote:

...in case somebody needs to install a binary, especially for something like wifi?

In this case, that person is already installing something extra. Might as well install the kernel headers while he's at it.

...but in this particular case (wireless, no wired connection), you need the network connection (which you don't have) to get the headers so you can install the binary that enables the network connection...not a terribly complicated vicious circle...

In addition to the specific kernel headers, maybe include the metapackage for the headers for that architecture as well, so that the "architecture-specific header files for the latest Linux kernel" will be pulled in with a dist-upgrade, if a new kernel point release happens to be dropped into the repo?


Yes; as a matter of fact, I am a cop.  Why do you ask? cool
I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#8 2012-09-03 15:38:49

xaos52
The Good Doctor
From: Planet of the @s
Registered: 2011-06-24
Posts: 4,595

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

plus 1

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#9 2012-09-03 16:56:22

vicshrike
#! by Default
From: /14.04
Registered: 2009-02-13
Posts: 2,914

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Yeah, why not?


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#10 2012-09-03 19:26:45

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

I don't see much need for it but there would be some value for the wifi scenario. It does seem like a minority problem though and if you have access elsewhere to get the binary you could probably pick up the kernel header as well. That said, now that CrunchBang is over 700mb it wouldn't hurt to add it but as greywolf pointed out, many nvidia users stick with a certain kernel combination once they find one that works well with a particular driver.

I guess the suggestion comes down to vicshrike's point. Why not? smile

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#11 2012-09-03 20:55:10

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

omns wrote:

as greywolf pointed out, many nvidia users stick with a certain kernel combination once they find one that works well with a particular driver.

This is, in fact, a perfect example.  Until there's a version of the Realtek 8192CU driver that aligns with the Testing kernel and the chipset:vendor duplet of my wifi, I'm stuck with the headers which - as you may remember - I needed to compile from source because the binaries aren't in the backports repo anymore; I'm sure an nVidia user stuck with 3.2.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 would also have to either recompile or find somebody who has already gone through the trouble.  If the headers were already there in the Statler backports image, coulda saved a couple hours of staring at scrolling text.


Yes; as a matter of fact, I am a cop.  Why do you ask? cool
I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#12 2012-09-03 21:25:44

omns
#! wanderer
From: ~/
Registered: 2008-11-25
Posts: 5,131

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

pvsage wrote:

This is, in fact, a perfect example.

OK +1 from me then smile

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#13 2012-09-03 21:47:28

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Count me in... It would make things much easier.

Good suggestion pvsage.


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#14 2012-09-03 23:05:15

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Perhaps I should move this to the Feedback & Suggestions area? wink  Or maybe the Waldorf development area? hmm

EDIT:  Looks like I'm not the only one having trouble with kernels newer than bpo.1 and the mainline equivalent; good thing he doesn't need the headers. neutral

Last edited by pvsage (2012-09-03 23:13:15)


Yes; as a matter of fact, I am a cop.  Why do you ask? cool
I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#15 2012-09-04 03:14:52

illusions
New Member
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 2

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

pvsage wrote:

I'm sure an nVidia user stuck with 3.2.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 would also have to either recompile or find somebody who has already gone through the trouble.  If the headers were already there in the Statler backports image, coulda saved a couple hours of staring at scrolling text.

Hi i am new to cruchbang the above would be me with nvidia, After 4 attempted installs of crunch bang following different Nvidia install tuts I have been unable to get it going.

This sounds like it may solve my problems and could help newbies like me out. grateful for your consideration in getting this implemented.

crunchbang@crunchbang:~$ uname -a
Linux crunchbang 3.2.0-0.bpo.1-amd64

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#16 2012-09-04 03:15:47

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

^ Did you try the smxi method?


VSIDO | SolusOS

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#17 2012-09-04 09:20:14

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

@illusions:  Welcome to #! Bistro!  Have a sandwich.

I'll see about putting my build of linux-headers-3.2.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 (and related .debs, including the kernel - it's a different build version than the one in the Statler-bpo image) in a Dropbox account...unless Corenominal might be willing to put them in the Statler repo?


Yes; as a matter of fact, I am a cop.  Why do you ask? cool
I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#18 2012-09-04 13:05:53

illusions
New Member
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 2

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Thank you that would be grate. This is one of my main reasons for wanting to switch up to #! not just for the look and feel of the desktop,

but for the folks in the community seem to be very helpful and for the most part when I am looking for open box info I am able to find it here.

Going to try out the smxi method as well on a fresh download. I was on beta last time I try it. Think it worked last time I try, only problem I had was being stuck on a very low screen res.

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#19 2012-09-19 14:17:58

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Hey illusions - any luck getting that nvidia card to work in Waldorf using smxi, or would you still like me to upload those .debs I had to compile for Statler+backports?

Speaking of compiling, I've noticed that fixing many hardware issues, especially with very new or very old hardware, often requires compiling a kernel module or two.  Would including build-essentials cause too much inflation in the size of the Waldorf ISO?


Yes; as a matter of fact, I am a cop.  Why do you ask? cool
I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#20 2012-09-19 21:31:53

pidsley
Window Mangler
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 1,752

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

The package is called "build-essential" (not 'essentials') and it pulls in 80M of package plus dependencies, even with --no-install-recommends. But given that the iso is already over the 700M limit, what's a few more MB?

On the other hand, it's quite simple to install it with apt-get (but not if your wireless isn't working, I suppose). But then so are many of the packages that 'forced' #! over the limit. And it might be difficult to log in to the forum to get instructions for building against the headers if wireless isn't working...

Quite the dilemma.

Last edited by pidsley (2012-09-19 21:52:09)

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#21 2012-09-19 21:44:58

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

Isn't the build-essential package already a part of the cb-welcome script as part of the development tools install?

The 700M CD limits are eventually going to have to be given up on, why put off the inevitable?  This is no different than when the floppy disk was replaced by the CD, eventually every piece of hardware got one and life went on.


VSIDO | SolusOS

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#22 2012-09-19 21:49:38

pidsley
Window Mangler
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 1,752

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

VastOne wrote:

Isn't the build essential package already a part of the cb-welcome script as part of the development tools install?

Yes, it is.

VastOne wrote:

The 700M CD limits are eventually going to have to be given up on, why put off the inevitable?  This is no different than when the floppy disk was replaced by the CD, eventually every piece of hardware got one and life went on.

I don't want to reopen this discussion, because it has already been decided. I thought I was simply stating facts. Another fact: many other distros seem to be able to produce quality isos without going over the CD limit. And my opinion: there are many good reasons to "put off the inevitable" in this case -- but again, they have all been enumerated in the thread where this issue was 'discussed' -- so let's agree to disagree.

Last edited by pidsley (2012-09-19 22:00:15)

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#23 2012-09-19 22:05:51

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: #! Fringe Division
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,163
Website

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

But you did reopen it with your 'facts'.  pvsage opened the same discussion with his opening statement that started this thread.

This is why Linux is a great platform, where choices are available to use 'other distros' that produce quality iso's.  It really isn't a contest and CrunchBang and corenominal is not looking to win or lose anything if another distro is chosen.


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#24 2012-09-19 23:12:25

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 11,443

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

pidsley wrote:

The package is called "build-essential" (not 'essentials') and it pulls in 80M of package plus dependencies, even with --no-install-recommends. But given that the iso is already over the 700M limit, what's a few more MB?

Thanks for the correction. cool  And that's my point exactly, especially if we're encouraging prospective users to download via torrent.  (EDIT:  Although at 80MiB plus dependencies, this easily adds more than 10% to the size of the image...not an insignificant increase, so not a decision to be made lightly.)

VastOne wrote:

Isn't the build-essential package already a part of the cb-welcome script as part of the development tools install?

Well, as pidsley said:

pidsley wrote:

And it might be difficult to log in to the forum to get instructions for building against the headers if wireless isn't working...

Quite the dilemma.

Last edited by pvsage (2012-09-20 06:40:29)


Yes; as a matter of fact, I am a cop.  Why do you ask? cool
I'm a moderator here.  How are we doing?  Feedback is encouraged.

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#25 2012-09-20 02:33:47

johnraff
#!Drunkard
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 2,687
Website

Re: Include kernel headers in Waldorf?

A user with only one computer available is going to have a lot of work ahead if they have no internet access on their new installation. Boot into whatever used to work, copy down all the info from the forums (paper or usb stick) download any necessary files onto that stick...

Anything that can be done on the .iso file to avoid that situation would be megabytes worth spending perhaps? I used to advocate including pcmciautils (a few Kb) for the same reason, but laptops using pcmcia LAN cards seem to be relatively few now.


John
--------------------
( a boring Japan blog , idle twitterings  and GitStuff )

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