Your Grandmother's Linux?

Graybyrd · 2012-04-10 04:38:37

Qualification: I'm a 72-yr-old Grandfather who helps straighten out Windows screw-ups for other seniors.

It's a mistake to call CrunchBang a lightweight distro; there's nothing lightweight about it. I've fallen in love with the elegant simplicity of the OpenBox interface, and the pure power of the OS underneath. Access to the suite of Debian applications means I've been able to install an equivalent of virtually everything I've been using for years under WinXP and Mac. It all ties together beautifully.

However did this distro get so far ahead of all the others in terms of pure functionality?

I've done some changes in the repos, following suggestions by wise mentors in these forums. That's resulted in the most current versions of IceWeasel and IceDove. So lagging behind is no problem.

For your Grandmother? I'm now confident that it will be a straight-forward project to clean up any of my senior citizen friends' machines and do a dual-boot install of CrunchBang for them; set up all the apps that would satisfy their daily email, web browsing, photo downloading & album sorting, correspondence, and record keeping. When they're weaned off Windows, I can reformat that partition for more storage.

A stable install of CrunchBang could serve an elder user long-term, as close to a trouble free tool as one could hope. And for the first time, worry-free. No online attacks, no system self-destruction!

The basic premise here is that CrunchBang comes with all the tools to make it an easy-to-configure, easy-to-run, easy-to-maintain operating system. In this respect it is a true heavyweight. I can only point to my OS-X systems as an equivalent ... but CrunchBang runs lighter and faster.

=GB=

smoki · 2012-04-10 05:17:29

I feel the same way about #! and debian underneath and i make it even more faster for me, more clickable and mine has
similar look like win cool .

Last edited by smoki (2012-04-10 05:22:37)

xaos52 · 2012-04-10 07:07:59

Hear hear. I fully agree. smile

jelloir · 2012-04-10 07:51:51

This was a great post to read. It's nice to hear #! can replace other more costly OS's, and by costly I don't just mean monetarily either.

Thanks for sharing.

hhh · 2012-04-10 15:24:42

Graybyrd wrote:

It's a mistake to call CrunchBang a lightweight distro; there's nothing lightweight about it.

Lightweight in the sense that it's frugal with system resources, not lightweight in the sense that it can't handle it's own against other OSes. It'll drink 'em under the table, actually.

Graybyrd wrote:

However did this distro get so far ahead of all the others in terms of pure functionality?

Because what it's built on, Debian stable, is the bomb and crunchbang's sole developer (corenominal aka Philip) has made prudent choices regarding what programs and firnware users will most likely need or want.

Nice testimonial. smile

-edit- should be only one l in Philip

Last edited by hhh (2012-04-10 17:04:14)

mahatman2 · 2012-04-10 15:44:52

We should put this on the cover of #! magazine! Truly a great story. Makes me want to go and convert some people smile

And not only can #! drink other OSes under the table, I bet its users can as well! lol

damo · 2012-04-10 16:38:44

@graybyrd Hear, hear!

My 80 yr old mother now uses Mint, which I used to replace Ubuntu for all the obvious reasons. I decided Crunchbang was a step too far for her - her current installation at least looks and feels like what she is used to, and things are in the places she expects them.

She doesn't care what is under the hood, as long as it does what she wants.

Now if only I can get her to download her camera images to properly organised directories, with descriptive names, and organize her emails.... big_smile

ArttuH5N1 · 2012-04-10 17:44:42

As an old Mint user* I would prefer Mint over #! as a senior friendly distro. It has that "classic" look (similar to Win) and is in my mind at least, generally more (beginner) user friendly.

*I've been "distro hopping" since Mint 7 (and now sticking to #!), because after that I've had problems with it. Probably because of my not-so-gracefully aged system.

Graybyrd · 2012-04-10 18:57:40

Two thoughts:

First, a distro's choice of apps makes little difference (to me) as it is so easy to modify all that; remove the ones not wanted, and install the ones that better fit one's needs and tastes. Far more important is the interface, the desktop environs, menu setup, and general look and feel. That takes much longer to munge, and leaves huge piles of debris and cruft laying about. (I'm a relative noob, but that's been my experience.)

Second, regarding Mint. I've had Mint installed; it is Ubuntu based (mostly) and it blew up on my machines during update/upgrade cycles. I tried the Mint Debian edition; it was not a satisfactory experience. Others loved it; I didn't.

Also, the attempt to make a Linux distro more "Windows-like" or "Mac-like" leaves me cold. I've used CP/M, DOS, and XP for years; I've used Mac since the days of OS 4.2. There ain't no way in hell that a thin veneer of desktop environment makes Linux resemble either Win or Mac in the slightest. It's a shotgun wedding, and the result will be an ugly little bastard.

So, that's basically why I fell in love with CrunchBang! It is just the right set of tools on top of what can arguably be called the best OS on the planet.

Now, if someone far more knowledgeable than I could suggest a docking or menu layer for CrunchBang that would be a nice GUI providing familiar ground for a senior, that doesn't result in a swamp of sinkholes or a forest of clutter ... I'd love to have you walk me through it. Meanwhile, holding the right-hand button and selecting a labelled choice seems about as easy as it could possibly get!

Thanks, all. =GB=

snowpine · 2012-04-10 19:01:26

Excellent testimonial! smile

mahatman2 · 2012-04-10 20:09:22

Graybyrd: for a dock or something, Have you tried adeskbar? Just search the forums here - it was created by a (former) member ADComp & works pretty well.

Other than that, the newest tint2 has, I believe, a task launcher section you can configure. That way you could have commonly-used apps with the icon there and a right click menu.

damo · 2012-04-10 20:56:27

@Graybyrd - Love your style, and agree with everything so far smile

Iranon · 2012-04-10 21:37:02

Some very good points from Graybyrd. I don't think Crunchbang is lightweight in the sense of frugal either... one can get a more full-featured system on a smaller footprint. I don't see this as a flaw - Crunchbang won't overtax most machines still in use, and tweaking for tweaking's sake aside the default setup makes a lot of sense.

No layers upon layers of incomprehensible abstraction, no streamlining to technical perfection at the expense of accessibility. Just simple tools that play nice with extensions and have friendly GUIs for day-to-day tasks... on top of the most stable base that doesn't take DIY to a scary extreme.

My mother, a great-grandmother and computer newbie, seems more interested in my clean Linux desktop than her shiny iMac. If she wants to play with a second system I'd suggest Crunchbang - FVWM on top of Arch may be taking things slightly too far.

rhowaldt · 2012-04-10 21:37:41

@damo: hey, i was gonna say that!

Beepmode · 2012-04-15 21:31:28

Very interesting... My mum (in her 70s) uses her computer mainly for e-mail but gets extremely frustrated by the Windows experience (it's slow, she keeps getting the usual Windows pop-up messages she doesn't understand etc.). I've been thinking about introducing her to #!. It would probably be an ideal OS for her. It's fast, looks clean, and I could edit the Openbox menu.xml file to make the system look even less intimidating than it already is.

So far I've been reluctant to install #! as I'd would be the only person who could troubleshoot, and I'm living abroad. That said, I've been using #! a couple of months now and haven't encountered a single issue. Might give it a shot after all wink .

Graybyrd · 2012-04-16 03:10:39

@everyone --> It's nice to see so many positive comments to this thread!

@Beepmode --> I've given this a lot of thought, and two points are reassuring: 1) the Windows "terror mode" is eliminated: no more frightening pop-up windows, patch interruptions, and mysterious sessions where control of the computer is seized by the OS for (?) reason; and 2) once you have it installed and stabilized, it should be good for a long, long time. The user won't be getting any software or system update demands, and if restrained from going into SU mode, there's little she can do to break the setup. To my way of thinking, that is simply sweet!

In that vein, I was startled today while visiting a good friend down on the local marina docks; he insisted that I hasten to his trawler so I could see the new AIS receiver/link he'd patched in to his old Compaq laptop. This is something I'd totally forgotten about. Nearly two years ago, I'd salvaged his laptop from a corrupted Windows installation, wiped the drive, and installed Mepis (Debian) Linux ver. 8. I put WINE on top of that, and then a package of SeaClear navigation freeware with a folder of Pacific NW NOAA raster charts.

It is still running perfectly ... he was delighted that he'd never had a moment's problem with any part of it, and when he connected a new AIS receiver to the laptop navigation setup via a serial port, everything worked perfectly. He did ask if I could update his folder of charts when I get a moment.

That's what I consider a success story .. a totally hands-off, trouble-free computing tool good for years instead of weeks. cool

=GB=

nore · 2012-04-16 08:10:29

Graybyrd wrote:

Also, the attempt to make a Linux distro more "Windows-like" or "Mac-like" leaves me cold. ... It's a shotgun wedding, and the result will be an ugly little bastard.

Agree. I've had opportunity to observe seniors with little computing experience learning to use their first own computer. Most of them don't really care, if their system is Win- or Mac- or Acme-like, as long as they are properly told how to use it and there are not too many steps to accomplish daily tasks.

#1 had used command-and-text based terminal systems in a bank in 70's and 80's. S/he did not have experience about GUI. S/he found opening applications with keybindings much easier than klicking an icon with a mouse. We pinned a chart of common keys needed in web surfng above her/his screen. (Her/his system was first Windows 2000, then Debian + Gnome).

#2 had been in a computing course (Win XP, Explorer, Outlook, MS Office) for senior citizens,had bought a used computer from her/his former place of employment and started to use it the way s/he was taught to. S/he loves mouse interface, unlike #1. I got her/him to change the browser to Firefox and soon we realized, that all s/he actually needed was the browser and services in internet (long before clouding, ~2005). S/he was thrilled to find out, that s/he did not need Oulook to read her/his mail, for some reason s/he hated it. When we finally installed Debian + LXDE instead of XP, s/he got rid of confusing notices and brute force updates. S/hes is learning to use Inkscape for drawing at the moment.

#3 had no earlier experience about computers. All that was needed was a sort of internet kiosk for reading newspaper sites and checking her/his bank account. No wallpapers, no menus, panels or docks (easy to accomplish with #!). Logging in and opening a browser in a home page are automatic. S/he struggels with mouse but prefers mouse and menus instead keybindings, s/he doesn't want to memorize them.

Then there are some, who have used computers at work lately before retirement and are capable of managing their systems themselves. All they need is tips and tricks and a major update every now and then.

I find it easier to teach basic tasks for seniors than juniors: they know what they want and need and they are willing to learn - if they are willing to touch modern elecctronics in the first place. Kids need to show off and pretend they know everything already.

rhowaldt · 2012-04-16 12:36:45

nore wrote:

Kids need to show off and pretend they know everything already.

my father-in-law is around 60 but knows his fair share about computers, always busy installing apps and breaking stuff and reverting to his backups etc etc etc. then some nephew of his wife comes for a visit, i was there too. the kid was doing some type of computer-education and had no idea this 'old man', or myself, knew anything about computers. all types of outrageous claims came out (sadly can't remember exactly what anymore..), and both of us just smiled and nodded smile

dbvolvox · 2012-04-16 18:49:52

Interesting that quite a few of us are working with seniors. For a really minimal user interface I have used Eldy (http://www.eldy.eu/) a Win or Linux program not an OS. I haven't been brave enough to go #! for any of my 'students' mainly because it would leave them totally dependent on me for support. At least with Win there are others that can help but I must admit it would be great to get them away from the tyranny of anti virus and windows updates and popups.

Another source of reluctance is that they have invariably paid for Win something and MS Office and Norton and maybe more so sweeping that aside and telling them they have wasted their money on such bloatware is potentially demoralising when their confidence is invariably already at a low ebb.

I would love to hear from anyone who has been braver than me.

Graybyrd · 2012-04-16 21:08:11

Again, my $.02 worth:

The stable OS philosophy of Debian linux is a significant factor behind a permanent installation. Once set up, I'd think it would remain good, much like the Mepis Debian install on my friend's old laptop, trouble-free for two years now. As long as the user doesn't muck about with SU changes ...

Whoever sets up the senior's system could do the typical partition division, with home stuff safely separate. As for dealing with possible disaster, a copy of the install disk, with a note tucked in the CD envelope listing simple steps to reinstall, user name, etc, with a caution to preserve the home partition ... that should suffice for a third party to restore a broken Debian/CrunchBang setup. I'm making a basic assumption here: that a senior's computer need not be kept current to the latest greatest versions. As long as it serves the intended purposes, that's sufficient. Upgrades can be made from time to time without disturbing the user home files on its separate partition.

As for the Win tyranny and its protection racket, my preference is to toss it all in the bin. Win 5 (XP) seems to be the last that will run well on older hardware; Win 6 was aborted; Win 7 requires massively capable hardware and is yet another trek down an endless gauntlet of patches, shields, and prayers. Who knows what Win 8 will bring. As for Mac OS-X, its era of desktop/laptop computing is ending with the adoption of the iOS fondleslab universe. Unless Gram and Gramps are willingly ambidextrous finger twitchers and thumb jockeys, I don't see much future for them there.

Linux is the future (IMHO) for desktop/laptop computing, because Windows is imploding and Mac is obliviating to Planet iOS and its golden waterfalls. It will take a lot of whining and snarling to convince manufacturers to support Linux with ancillary software for consumer electronics, but they may eventually see their user base shifting. When future $ale$ are involved, it will happen.

=GB=

johnraff · 2012-04-17 10:25:57

Generally agree Graybyrd, except for this lingering feeling that the desktop/laptop computer as a mass consumer item may be on the way out, replaced by all those fingerswipe pad things. That may be all the "ordinary" user wants, and for the manufacturer it has the advantage of being under their control, whether apple, android or windows. Free web-based services replaced by "apps" you have to pay for.

Is the era of the multi-purpose computer that can use any OS nearly over? I certainly hope not, but...

Last edited by johnraff (2012-04-17 10:26:27)

rhowaldt · 2012-04-17 11:21:06

^ imo, the laptop/desktop will never vanish. simply because i don't see on-screen keyboards ever becoming easier to use than physical ones. and i don't mean for stuff like text-messages, emails or facebook. i mean for serious writing and programming. also, there's a reason many people still prefer desktops over laptops, and it is because desktops are modular. when you want another soundcard/graphics card/etc, you plug it in. no such thing with a laptop. you just cannot access the insides so easily. sure, you can go with external stuff, but it isn't quite the same.

so, while i think 'pads' etc can be useful, i doubt they will ever fully replace the 'real' computers. however, maybe i should make a distinction between the 'ordinary' user and the 'advanced' user. for ordinary users, these pads might be enough. for the rest of us, i doubt they'll ever be.

but let's not take this whole thing too far off-topic...

Iranon · 2012-04-17 15:28:42

I'm getting more and more convinced that !# would have been the right operating system for my mother.... she decided against it after some deliberation, as most of the family consists of happy Apple users.

Her problems with OSX are very similar to mine: Imprecise language, lots of little inconsistencies, direct control being fiddly, menu/settings hierarchy often based "what you may want" rather than logic. I can at least understand the design decisions, but it's worse for her because her troubleshooting Google-Fu needs work and she can't just drop down to Unixy basics if the standard GUI is being obtuse.
Quite surprising to me, because I'd have imagined complete newbie problems being more different to readjustment problems (and yes, I kept my misgivings to myself).

She's very methodical (lots of experience in running a neat dead-tree-office) and wants her workflow to be simple and transparent, "just working" isn't enough.
As such, she finds much of the inbuilt cleverness more confusing than helpful.
Unfortunately, playing around with a second OS just as she's starting to settle in doesn't seem a good idea, and with 5 macs and around 10 iDevices in the family I don't think I can resolve this gracefully. Really unsure what to suggest now sad

I hope I'm not rambling... if so, I apologise.

Last edited by Iranon (2012-04-17 15:30:01)

Hashi Godan · 2012-07-25 07:02:54

Graybyrd, I'm also a septuagenarian and
I've been using computers since 1970.

My wife, a very non geek, uses only Ubuntu 10.04 on her box and rarely runs into issues.
Except for sending emails (TB) and Skyping to her mom, she browses with Firefox.
Her biggest problem is sometimes having 20+ Firefoxes running at one time slowing her down.

I'm still using Ubuntu daily.
#!, Ubuntu and Vista are installed on my laptop (3-boot).
My desktop is my new DIY box and with only #! installed.
It is really fast.
As I learn #!, I'll use Ubuntu less and less.

We have a separate box for Windoz.
The only time we use it is for Netflix (Silverlight) and genealogy (Legacy).
Linux genealogy software is not good enough, IMHO.

Bottom Line: Personally I think us old folk can use #! as easily as Windoz.
Setup is a bit more difficult with #!, but once setup, use is easier and safer.
The only difficulty would be our level of open mindedness to learning something new.
...

Tunafish · 2012-07-25 07:52:07

My 81 year old mom uses Mint (Debian). I'm not sure she understands it's a completely different system. She actually doesn't care as long as she can use firefox, thunderbird and openoffice. And she got rid of the huge amount of dumb windows questions.
#! with XFCE would have been a alternative. But Mint does a nice job and looks good.

Most of my friends (35-50) keep using windows. They don't have any other reason than: "it came with my laptop". I should ask why they're so afraid to move to Linux. They absolutely prefer the ideology of free software over the marketing strategy from Microsoft.

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#1 2012-04-10 04:38:37

Your Grandmother's Linux?

#2 2012-04-10 05:17:29

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#3 2012-04-10 07:07:59

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#24 2012-07-25 07:02:54

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#25 2012-07-25 07:52:07

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