Feedback from Ubuntu user...

path · 2012-03-19 18:55:14

Back on Ubuntu.

Last edited by path (2013-02-28 03:17:50)

snowpine · 2012-03-19 19:08:37

Welcome to the forums, path!

Everything you describe is a "feature not a bug." CrunchBang is designed by one man, who enjoys the command-line interface, BASH scripting, editing config text files, and non-auto-updating menus. It is unlikely that #! will be changing these core values any time soon.

That being said, you can install 1,000s of apps from the Debian repositories, including update-manager, gnome-mouse-properties, the Debian menu, etc. to customize your CrunchBang experience to give it more GUI config tools like Ubuntu.

smoki · 2012-03-19 19:23:59

Linux Mint 12 LXDE have all these features by default.

gensym · 2012-03-19 19:34:06

As snowpine already pointed out, these are design features.

path wrote:

- No GUI way to adjust mouse sensitivity? This seems so basic... and yet I have to tinker with config files and scripts etc.

sudo apt-get install gpointing-device-settings

Alt+F2: gpointing-device-settings + Enter

path wrote:

- No Update Manager? A new user would have no way of knowing that they need to run security updates etc.

Open up a terminal and type

sudo aptitude

Ta da! Just open it once a week and you are done.

path wrote:

- Newly installed software not automatically added to the menu. Again the user must mess with things to get something very basic set up correctly.

I cannot really comment on this, since I find gui complex and almighty application menus a little pointless.
Alt+F3 (dmenu) or Alt+F2 (gmrun) gets the job done for me (and much faster, because I don't have to traverse the menu searching for the application).

Last edited by gensym (2012-03-19 23:14:21)

Jabroneous · 2012-03-19 19:46:26

path wrote:

- No GUI way to adjust mouse sensitivity? This seems so basic... and yet I have to tinker with config files and scripts etc.
- No Update Manager? A new user would have no way of knowing that they need to run security updates etc.
- Newly installed software not automatically added to the menu. Again the user must mess with things to get something very basic set up correctly.

The old Xfce version of #! has all of those features, but you'll have to install and update the February 2011 images if you want the CB-specific scripts to be enabled as they were intended. The Xfce version was discontinued as of the November 2011 release, but you can easily mirror corenominal's major updates to the software by adding the backport and multimedia repos manually.

Although the particular points you mentioned aren't too important to me when considering a distro, I think I'd be in the same boat as you with a few different minor issues if I were facing the Openbox version for the first time.

Forthy · 2012-03-19 20:06:37

Yeah, I kinda think that's the point. If people want it handed to them on a plate, they pick a distro where it is handed to them on a plate. When you want something more, and want to be part of a more 'exclusive' team, you come here.

snowpine · 2012-03-19 20:18:30

I disagree about the "handed on a plate" concept, because I think that depends on the user.

For example I have seen the feedback/suggestion "make it easier/user-friendly to mount drives and devices in CrunchBang; the terminal command is too hard to remember."

However for *my* type of brain (linguistic thinker) nothing could be easier than mounting a drive using the command mount. smile

Some of the decisions in #! may seem weird at first ("editing a text file to add items to the menu? how strange!") but for certain personalities ("the #! type") they will seem like conveniences/timesavers/efficiencies rather than obstacles/hurdles.

I remember the first time I used the Alt+F3 feature... now I simply cannot use mouse-driven application sub-menus any more, it seems like horrible torment compared with the #! way. wink

VastOne · 2012-03-19 20:38:32

^ Well said...

Add to it the fact that CrunchBang is Debian based and anything you want you can have..

I consider CrunchBang the best Debian starting base there is, even better than a netinstal, but that's just me. smile

rhowaldt · 2012-03-19 21:00:30

path wrote:

These may seem like minor issues but in my view these kinds of things will inhibit #!'s wider popularity.
Hopefully a future version of #! may make things easier on the less technically inclined.
It's a shame because there is so much to like from this distro.

the thing i liked about #! when i started using it as my first distro ever about a year ago, was the fact that it was simple, easy to understand, clickable and had GUI-options for stuff, but at the same time invited you to edit config files, to use the terminal. it gave me a glimpse of all the stuff which makes Linux such a powerful OS, and all the reasons i left Windows behind, and never looked back.
so, in my opinion, it is actually quite easy for the less technically inclined. editing a config file isn't difficult, it is just that you feel using a mouse is easier. that's not a matter of usability, that's a matter of preference.
on top of that, there is no intention to inhibit #!'s wider popularity. the distro isn't aiming to become 'the next big thing', or anything like that. this is a humble distro, from humble beginnings, simply aspiring to do what its developer wants, and do it well. nothing more. so i doubt that will ever be a motivation for making changes.

this last comment is not meant as a snarky, bitchy thing, because it may be interpreted that way. it is an honest question. so here goes: why did you leave Ubuntu?

kri5 · 2012-03-19 21:14:42

Pretty much everything the OP posted is why I like #! big_smile

I came from Ubuntu, Linux Mint (and many more) and took to #! rather easily, although I still have plenty to learn. I love editing or trying to edit config files, although I can see how this might not be everyones cup of tea but then again Unity and Gnome3 isn't mine either! lol

It seems there are at least half a dozen new posts in 'Introductions' everyday so Corenominal most be doing something right, keep up the good work I say and don't change a thing. big_smile

lcafiero · 2012-03-19 21:20:20

Welcome to #!, path.

Others have already pointed out the features of this distro that make it different and -- in my opinion -- what makes it stand out from others. And you are right to say that there is a lot to like about this distro, because those of us who use it know this.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you like using Ubuntu, I would tell you what I would tell anyone in this situation: Use what works best for you, and it appears you should stay with what you're using. That may sound unwelcoming -- and I don't mean for it to be -- but to make CrunchBang do what you want it to do would entail a raft of unnecessary work for you, especially in light of the fact there are many other distros that do just that right out of the box.

Not everyone can drive an Aston-Martin, nor does everyone want to. It's not a one-size-fits-all world and variety is one of the facets of FOSS that makes it strong. Distros are like ice cream -- you pick the flavors you like and you eat them to your heart's content. So while I hope I'm wrong about what I'm about to say, it appears that this is not your flavor.

One more thing: You might think the things you consider hurdles, and what we consider features, "will inhibit #!'s wider popularity." You also might want to note that CrunchBang ranges from the mid-20s to the mid-40s on Distrowatch's list of active distros; out of about 420 active distros, that's not too shabby. You will find that #! is also being shown at expos like SCALE and Linux Fest Northwest as well. So the "wider popularity" thing? I think that's under control.

Enjoy your stay. smile

[And kri5 is right -- good work and don't change a thing]

smoki · 2012-03-19 21:26:38

Yep do not change anything corenominal, I changed everything and it is still rock stable big_smile .

That is quality cool .

vicshrike · 2012-03-19 23:09:31

@path, do what is best for you, but, give #! a little time, time make you a little bit comfortable with these small awkward #! things/stuff, then after a while you will be rewarded with love and hardcore addiction for it. Whatever you choose to do,
good luck with it! Or go back to Ubuntu, or similar, and load #! in a virtual set up, tinker and have fun with it, then install when you are ready for it. smile

path · 2012-03-20 03:14:30

Just doing some distro hopping.

Last edited by path (2013-02-28 03:18:29)

smoki · 2012-03-20 03:41:37

All is a matter of preference roll . either moderna and fassionisma:D . One colud say: no it is not modern because
you use yours keyboards and mouses, c'mon win 8 is here wake up WE ALL just touch our screens... and wash our hands:lol: We don't want menus, start button, we want to use just wayland it will give us these kind of things, it is ONLY good for us... Like W8 moderna... kh,kh,kh:/ etc, etc,...

Is it boring to be modern?:| when only one knows what it is tongue .

Last edited by smoki (2012-03-20 03:44:24)

rhowaldt · 2012-03-20 07:20:45

@path: thanks for the answer. like others said, if you feel uncomfortable with the '#! way', you should maybe consider a distro which does have the features you're looking for. Linux Mint has been suggested.

editing a config-file does indeed require some degree of research. however, i find 'research' to be a pretty heavy word for it. it just requires your attention. and the amount of attention required to use something is still a matter of preference, imo.

one of the other problems: the #! wiki isn't as good and well-maintained and complete as, say, the Arch Wiki. with this distro, the forums are a much better way of gathering your information (as has been demonstrated by the replies to your post smile )

vicshrike · 2012-03-20 07:54:43

path wrote:

I was just doing some distro hopping on my old machine in order to get a better idea of what's out there.

I knew it, you are a true #!er at heart!

Iranon · 2012-03-20 10:25:13

There are distributions that leave you just with Linux and a command line. There are full-fat distributions that install everything and the kitchen sink.

Crunchbang is a nice compromise that gives you a fairly basic but easily extensible environment but sets up most things that are fiddly/scary for less technical users without installing too much offensive bloat - if you don't agree with all of the choices, stripping it down is probably still faster than starting from scratch.

Personally, I'd rather edit a plaintext configuration file than click through a 10-page wizard that likely still doesn't show me all of the options. It gets worse if these wizards use something else to store the configuration (probably in some annoying markup language) and the obvious and readable config file is being ignored.

But yes, text-based interaction really needs good documentation to back it up.

el_koraco · 2012-03-20 13:38:49

Iranon wrote:

probably in some annoying markup language.

Like obconf and rc.xml? big_smile

CBizgreat! · 2012-03-20 13:51:20

Mainly said in jest, am in a clowing type mood. Though also partly meant sincerely.

Just as gnu/Linux is not window$, #! is not Ubuntu ... Much of the things mentioned are reasons I like #!, it's not buntu, ever got to be like buntu ... Am sooooo outta here ! Mentioned mostly just messing round, all the stuff you mentioned has a myriad of solutions for anyone willing to cuddle up to #!, spend some time trolling with me in the #! forum, google etc so forth.

Linux Mint, buntu, PClinuxOS and tons of others cropped up to fill that exact niche. Folks brand new to gnu/nix. Tons of others ... #! obviously being one, decided to take another route. Am by no means anything like a nix ninja, but further away now than being a total newb. Appreciate a minimalist distro like #! for what it is, not bloated, not flashy by default, solid, dependable and stable software that can run great on almost anything. All you want can be added if you so desire though.

Plenty of people doing who knows what with #! As an added bonus, ya get the #! community and forums too. They'd probably have banned ya over a buntu forums central for this outrage ! wink

Which btw, if I can grok #! ... anyone can folks. Troll face!> tongue

Last edited by CBizgreat! (2012-03-20 13:53:18)

hinto · 2012-03-20 13:53:21

For clarification, what the OP stated is part of a Desktop Environment/Window Manager, not part of a distribution.
Openbox, by nature, is configured by editing text files. There are applications (like galternatives) that can be added after a distro install, that are not part of Openbox that can configure these things for you. You also get another set of gui configuration thingies (like composition and editors to tweak them) if you install XFCE, Gnome, KDE, etc. These are not part of a distro, rather part of DE/WM combinations. The good news is that #! is Debian and according to debian.org:

Debian GNU/Linux provides more than a pure OS: it comes with over 29000 packages, precompiled software bundled up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine.

Which means you can configure #! like:http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=ronco&gwp=13 (My copy of #! included the knives wink )

sunfizz98 · 2012-03-20 14:38:42

VastOne wrote:

^ Well said...
Add to it the fact that CrunchBang is Debian based and anything you want you can have..
I consider CrunchBang the best Debian starting base there is, even better than a netinstal, but that's just me.

I agree with crunchbang as the best starting base, but I might disagree with the netinstall part smile

@path
For the whole update shenanigans, ever tried synaptic or "sudo apt-get upgrade"?

lcafiero · 2012-03-20 15:12:54

path wrote:

The home page states that #! "...provides a modern, full-featured GNU/Linux system...." That's where I have to disagree. I mean let's be honest: a modern system ships with the features I mentioned in the original post.

Actually, let's put aside what consititues a "modern, full-featured GNU/Linux system," because clearly our definitions on this differ. From my experience, CrunchBang provides all you need to operate one's computer -- maybe not the way to which you're accustomed -- and the latest tools and programs are there for you; and if they're not in the original install, they're available in the repositories.

But never mind that for now.

I mean, let's be honest: Do you visit a friend's house and rearrange his furniture or paint his living room because you don't like the way it is?

Again, I don't want to sound off-putting, but you're entitled to your opinion, as we all are. But bear in mind that there's a fine line between stating opinions or debating issues and trolling.

I have used CrunchBang for about nine months as my main distro -- along with other, more mainstream distros in a small lab I run -- and I think it stands out among the others. I use it as a primary distro because it suits my needs.

Again, you may disagree and you may find CrunchBang doesn't have the features that suit you. That's fine. At this point, you have two (actually, three) options: Learn to use CrunchBang as it's designed and presented by the lead developer, or tweak CrunchBang to your liking; or, as suggested before, use another distro that better suits your needs.

Last edited by lcafiero (2012-03-20 15:13:35)

2ManyDogs · 2012-03-20 15:37:04

lcafiero wrote:

I mean, let's be honest: Do you visit a friend's house and rearrange his furniture or paint his living room because you don't like the way it is?

Thank you! This is exactly how I felt the last time someone showed up in the forum with "suggestions" for improving the distro as two out of their first three posts. I even used this furniture-rearranging analogy when I was telling someone else about the new poster.

What makes Linux so cool is that there are shiny bright distros that include the kitchen sink, tiny little distros like Puppy, SliTaz, DSL, and TinyCore, and everything in between. We can all find what we like, or modify accordingly. The screen shots on this forum show that even users of #! don't agree on what's "best."

I absolutely hated the "update manager" during my very brief attempt to like Mint.

VastOne · 2012-03-20 15:48:26

^ & ^^ Well said..

Considering also that things like update manager and 'the kitchen sink' actually discourages learning anything about 'why and how' it works. Granted, it is not for everyones needs to understand what is happening when you do an apt-get update/install/dist-upgrade or what the sources.list means in all of this, but knowing these things will make you appreciate the simplicity behind Linux and help in the fundamentals of basic cli administration.. Sounds like a good base to me

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Feedback from Ubuntu user...

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