CrunchBang - Code, Design & GNU/Linux

7 Responses to “Perplexed by Web Frameworks”

1. greg wrote, Saturday, March 29th, 2008

   If you're going to look at php frameworks I would like to suggestion codeigniter. It tends to stay out of your way more than the others and has great documentation. Although I have migrated to the dark side and use RoR now.

   http://codeigniter.com/

2. Vincent wrote, Saturday, March 29th, 2008

   I'm an avid user of the Zend Framework (CodeIgniter looked interesting but ZF was a bit cleaner a pure PHP 5) and am really enthusiastic.

   It does not take away room for innovation, since it's only core classes it provides, i.e. you don't have a full website by just installing ZF. It is indeed fun to write your own code, but not when you're writing similar stuff over and over again. Using ZF for the common tasks allows you to spend your time on the really interesting new stuff. Using a framework the variety is much greater.

   All in all, the time spent learning (which won't just teach you how to use the framework, but also how to write better code in general) is absolutely worth it, IMHO.

3. Wil Sinclair wrote, Sunday, March 30th, 2008

   I agree with Vincent completely, although I'd like to make the ramifications of Zend Framework's use-at-will architecture a bit more explicit. The idea is you can take it, leave it, or extend it. If there are parts of the application you'd prefer to code yourself, then we believe you should be able to do that easily- the framework should get out of you way and fast. But there are likely parts of the application that you don't want to write yourself, and that's where one or more of ZF's loosely coupled components can help out. On the other hand, many developers would prefer to code only the business logic and specific infrastructure necessary for the application at hand. They might find that ZF components save them time or provide them a better base upon which they can build a better application. So we strive to provide everything they would need to do this. Others might find that are components are almost what they need, but not quite: they're likely to take advantage of the many extension points built in to ZF as a result of our MO of building from the bottom up towards simplicity and more specific use cases. For someone who is hesitant to use frameworks in the first place, this might be more acceptable to you. In the end, I think you'll find our philosophy coming out strong in the code base. We think opinionated software makes all the sense in the world, but opinionated frameworks do not. And we're not the only ones. Examples I can think of in the PHP world include Solar and eZ Components. No doubt I'm missing other great examples. Glad to hear you've been playing with ZF. I'm sure you've also read about Rasmus' no-framework framework (http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/38-The-no-framework-PHP-MVC-framework.html), but if not you might find that interesting.

   Best of luck whether you go with ZF, another framework, or on your own!

   ,Wil

4. Vincent wrote, Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008

   I in my turn can only agree with Wil. The loose coupling is excellent. Just today I decided to drop Zend_Db and start playing around with Doctrine for my database abstraction, and it is very, very easy to make the switch. And I've learned some more :)

5. Philip wrote, Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008

   Having read these comments, I'm still not fully convinced, although there are some strong arguments put forward. I guess I'll have to try it for myself, hopefully I will then develop a better understanding. As luck would have it, I am about to start a new project and so maybe I will give Zend Framework a try :)

6. Vincent wrote, Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008

   Be sure to keep us updated, whether you decide to stick with ZF or not :)

7. Steve wrote, Thursday, April 3rd, 2008

   I've used CakePHP with some success. I find it a lot quicker than "reinventing the wheel" for each project.